Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Wrangler]

So the credit for our abiding in Christ really belongs to God

This is willful denial. Christ was not commanding God to abide. He was telling us to do something for a reason. The burden is ours!

 

[PinSeeker]

That’s the sense I meant it; the sense that it’s true.

Hmmmm.... well, I hope so, but it seems not. <smile>

This is willful denial.

Pish. Maybe on your part... <smile>

Christ was not commanding God to abide.

That's most assuredly not what I said, either explicitly or implicitly. Goodness gracious.

He was telling us to do something for a reason.

Sure He was. Absolutely. And like I said, I don't disagree with you, at least not completely... <smile> In the... simplistic way you understand what He's saying there, I agree with you. But there's more to it than that... Like I said, think about it. <smile>

The burden is ours!

Yes, experientially, that's true. I wouldn't call it a burden, though; abiding in Him is certainly not a burden, it's a... well, a labor of love, maybe, and certainly a great joy... <smile> And...

"...we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).​

And again:

"...thanks be to God, Who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 15:57).​

I mean, that's great news, is it not?

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

 

[Rich R]

Why? Do Christ‘s words before Pentecost have no applicability or value beyond a historical record?

We can certainly learn from things Jesus said. Nonetheless, every word he spoke was before Pentecost. Would you agree that something changed on that day?

Besides, abiding is not the same as salvation. When we don't abide, we certainly lose many blessings in this life, but we are still saved by grace, by incorruptible seed.

Moses didn't abide when he hit the rock twice to get watr. Because of his disbelief, he was not able to have the blessing of entering the promised land during his lifetime. Do you think Moses will not be in the coming millennial kingdom because of that?

Though all that happened before Pentecost, I think we can certainly learn something. So no, I don't think what was said before Pentecost has no value. But Pentecost brought in a new age that was very different than when Moses and Jesus spoke.

Many Christians mix Jews with Gentiles, with Christians, as well as mixing up times. The problem with that is that the work that Jesus accomplished is largely misunderstood. An example; someone here (forget who) said the Moses was born again. If we could get born again well before Jesus came, what was the point of his death and resurrection? Apparently, the new birth was available ever since...not sure what they think...ever since Adam? Abraham? Moses? David? Mixing up times and peoples causes no end of confusion.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Besides, abiding is not the same as salvation. When we don't abide, we certainly lose many blessings in this life, but we are still saved by grace, by incorruptible seed.

Jesus said what you said is heresy.

He said if one does not abide in Him, the Father takes them away - they are cut off the vine

So your claim that we can still be saved while abiding in satan - which is the opposite of not abiding in Christ - is heresy taught by the false teachers peddling OSAS

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:4,5
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:8-10
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

HOW are we to abide in Christ, thru our own strength and ability???
NO... thru the Lord Who strengthens us!

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Those that Turned Away from the Lord
(*They were born again... turned away from the Lord, and became UN-saved)

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when THEY will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And THEY shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “BRETHREN” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

 

[Button]

Once saved,we are eternally saved. Which is why what Jesus taught is also known as the good news of eternal salvation.

His enemies call him a liar. Yet again.

They insist eternal salvation is a license to sin.

Which proves yet again Jesus was speaking the truth about that teaching to come over 2000 years later.
His teachings are not meant for them to understand.

Which is why they insist Salvation can be lost.

Imagine living like that.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus said what you said is heresy.

He said if one does not abide in Him, the Father takes them away - they are cut off the vine

So your claim that we can still be saved while abiding in satan - which is the opposite of not abiding in Christ - is heresy taught by the false teachers peddling OSAS

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:5
IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:4,5
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

*** WHO... is to do the abiding according to Jesus???? That’s right, WE are!

John 15:8-10
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

HOW are we to abide in Christ, thru our own strength and ability???
NO... thru the Lord Who strengthens us!

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Those that Turned Away from the Lord
(*They were born again... turned away from the Lord, and became UN-saved)

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when THEY will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And THEY shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*By addressing this to “BRETHREN” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)

(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

Not a single verse you quoted talks about salvation by grace.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

You added the word "spiritual" to "death." It's better to understand a verse by first reading what it actually says.

In John 15, Jesus was not talking about Christians, those born again by incorruptible seed. Incorruptible seed wasn't available until Pentecost.

 

[PinSeeker]

When we don't abide, we certainly lose many blessings in this life...

And possibly incur judgments, right, Rich? As I said a few posts ago to Wrangler, God disciplines those He loves, and He can do this in a variety of ways. But it is always for our good, perhaps not in the moment, but with regard to eternity, of course.

...we are still saved by grace...

Of course, and the blessings and judgments that are given to us... and trials that we endure... are a part of that grace, too... even if it may not to us seem like it. <smile>

Moses didn't abide when he hit the rock twice to get water. Because of his disbelief, he was not able to have the blessing of entering the promised land during his lifetime.

Well, Moses disbelieved that merely telling the rock would cause it to yield water. So he struck it with his staff instead. But we should see the rock there as a "type," a "shadow," of Jesus, Who is the Rock of our salvation, from Whom, of course, flows living water (John 4:10, 7:38). But yes, because of that disbelief of what God told him and disobeying of what God told him to do, yes, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land.

Do you think Moses will not be in the coming millennial kingdom because of that?

Moses already is in the millennial kingdom, as you and I are, and I think Wrangler, too... <smile> In these last days (Hebrews 1:2), Jesus reigns now, from heaven, and we with Him, in that, yes, "by grace (we) have been saved⁠... and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." What is coming is the eternal kingdom... the kingdom fully restored in eternity, the age to come. For now it is being restored, being made new. And this will be the New Heaven and New Earth.

...Pentecost brought in a new age that was very different than when Moses and Jesus spoke.

Hmmm, well Moses, yes... <smile> But not really different, just far greater than imagined before... And in eternity, in the age to come, it will be perfected. And of course will have no end. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8); this verse has great implications... And we get at least a hint of this when, as Luke records in Luke 24, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to (the two men on the road to Emmaus) in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." I would guess that scene with Moses, where he struck the rock with his staff, came up in that conversation... <smile>

Many Christians mix Jews with Gentiles, with Christians, as well as mixing up times.

<chuckles>
"...as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:27-29)

"...remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands⁠ ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).

For the life of me, I cannot see how anyone can keep, well, anyone separated from anyone else, regardless of ethnicity, given that they are saved, born again of the Spirit, and thus in Christ. They cannot, except in their minds.

...someone here (forget who) said the Moses was born again.

Ohhhhhh, don't lie to him, Rich. You know very well who said it. It was I. <smile> And we know this because of what Jesus told Nicodemus, that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:3,5). We will absolutely, with absolute certainty ~ surely you agree with this ~ see Moses is a part of God's kingdom and will be standing with us on Jesus's right in the final Judgment (in the congregation of the righteous) and then in the New Heaven and New Earth.

If we could get born again well before Jesus came, what was the point of his death and resurrection?

Oh, so you don't believe we are yet born again of the Spirit. Wow. Well, why don't you believe what Paul said to the Ephesians in Ephesians 2 ~ "(we) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠..." ~ or what Peter said in 1 Peter 1 to the Gentile believers he was speaking to ~ "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"...? Wow. Maybe I am misunderstanding you... Do you somehow think what is clearly in the past tense to be future only? Surely not... And yes, I know your name is not Shirley... <chuckles>

Apparently, the new birth was available ever since...not sure what they think...ever since Adam? Abraham? Moses? David?

Adam. Abel was clearly born again, but Cain clearly not. We know the Spirit was at work in Creation from Creation itself, as "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2) even before God's act of Creation.

Mixing up times and peoples causes no end of confusion.

Just on its face, I would agree with this statement... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

Once saved,we are eternally saved. Which is why what Jesus taught is also known as the good news of eternal salvation.

His enemies call him a liar. Yet again.

They insist eternal salvation is a license to sin.

They just can't conceive of obeying someone because they love them. That alone speaks volumes as to their character. If they were in charge, we'd all be under tight control instead of living freely in God's love and grace. But I suppose, to them, living freely is the same as a license to sin.

Which proves yet again Jesus was speaking the truth about that teaching to come over 2000 years later.
His teachings are not meant for them to understand.

Which is why they insist Salvation can be lost.

It's hared to go beyond what they they've heard from the pulpits for some 2,000 years. It's a good illustration of what Jesus said about tradition:

Mark 7:13,

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

​

The completed work of Jesus is totally lost because of tradition.

The Book of Galatians has been sitting there for some 2,000 years, and it says;

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?​

​

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

​

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Sadly, many say, "yes" to the question in the last part of verse 3, a perfect example of making the word of God of none effect.

Imagine living like that.

It must be awful. They are either full of fear or they feel they are as righteous by their own behavior. Of course they would probably not admit either option.

 

[Rich R]

And possibly incur judgments, right, Rich? As I said a few posts ago to Wrangler, God disciplines those He loves, and He can do this in a variety of ways. But it is always for our good, perhaps not in the moment, but with regard to eternity, of course.


Of course, and the blessings and judgments that are given to us... and trials that we endure... are a part of that grace, too... even if it may not to us seem like it. <smile>


Well, Moses disbelieved that merely telling the rock would cause it to yield water. So he struck it with his staff instead. But we should see the rock there as a "type," a "shadow," of Jesus, Who is the Rock of our salvation, from Whom, of course, flows living water (John 4:10, 7:38). But yes, because of that disbelief of what God told him and disobeying of what God told him to do, yes, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land.


Moses already is in the millennial kingdom, as you and I are, and I think Wrangler, too... <smile> In these last days (Hebrews 1:2), Jesus reigns now, from heaven, and we with Him, in that, yes, "by grace (we) have been saved⁠... and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." What is coming is the eternal kingdom... the kingdom fully restored in eternity, the age to come. For now it is being restored, being made new. And this will be the New Heaven and New Earth.


Hmmm, well Moses, yes... <smile> But not really different, just far greater than imagined before... And in eternity, in the age to come, it will be perfected. And of course will have no end. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8); this verse has great implications... And we get at least a hint of this when, as Luke records in Luke 24, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to (the two men on the road to Emmaus) in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." I would guess that scene with Moses, where he struck the rock with his staff, came up in that conversation... <smile>


<chuckles>
"...as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:27-29)

"...remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands⁠ ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:11-22).

For the life of me, I cannot see how anyone can keep, well, anyone separated from anyone else, regardless of ethnicity, given that they are saved, born again of the Spirit, and thus in Christ. They cannot, except in their minds.


Ohhhhhh, don't lie to him, Rich. You know very well who said it. It was I. <smile> And we know this because of what Jesus told Nicodemus, that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:3,5). We will absolutely, with absolute certainty ~ surely you agree with this ~ see Moses is a part of God's kingdom and will be standing with us on Jesus's right in the final Judgment (in the congregation of the righteous) and then in the New Heaven and New Earth.


Oh, so you don't believe we are yet born again of the Spirit. Wow. Well, why don't you believe what Paul said to the Ephesians in Ephesians 2 ~ "(we) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠..." ~ or what Peter said in 1 Peter 1 to the Gentile believers he was speaking to ~ "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"...? Wow. Maybe I am misunderstanding you... Do you somehow think what is clearly in the past tense to be future only? Surely not... And yes, I know your name is not Shirley... <chuckles>


Adam. Abel was clearly born again, but Cain clearly not. We know the Spirit was at work in Creation from Creation itself, as "the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2) even before God's act of Creation.


Just on its face, I would agree with this statement... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

I'd reply, but I'm afraid it may sound like I'm lecturing.

Besides, you misunderstand much of what I say. Maybe it's me, maybe it's you. I don't know. It doesn't matter though. The main thing is that my words are misunderstood.

BTW...grace and peace to you, PinSeeker.

 

[Button]

They just can't conceive of obeying someone because they love them. That alone speaks volumes as to their character. If they were in charge, we'd all be under tight control instead of living freely in God's love and grace. But I suppose, to them, living freely is the same as a license to sin.

It's hared to go beyond what they they've heard from the pulpits for some 2,000 years. It's a good illustration of what Jesus said about tradition:

Mark 7:13,

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

​

The completed work of Jesus is totally lost because of tradition.

The Book of Galatians has been sitting there for some 2,000 years, and it says;

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?​

​

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

​

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Sadly, many say, "yes" to the question in the last part of verse 3, a perfect example of making the word of God of none effect.


It must be awful. They are either full of fear or they feel they are as righteous by their own behavior. Of course they would probably not admit either option.

I wonder how many of those who don't believe in eternal security in Christ also defend works as necessary to retain salvation?

Ego and pride. The self has to be involved in securing its future even when self becomes spirit after death.

 

[Button]

They just can't conceive of obeying someone because they love them. That alone speaks volumes as to their character. If they were in charge, we'd all be under tight control instead of living freely in God's love and grace. But I suppose, to them, living freely is the same as a license to sin.

It's hared to go beyond what they they've heard from the pulpits for some 2,000 years. It's a good illustration of what Jesus said about tradition:

Mark 7:13,

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

​

The completed work of Jesus is totally lost because of tradition.

The Book of Galatians has been sitting there for some 2,000 years, and it says;

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?​

​

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

​

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Sadly, many say, "yes" to the question in the last part of verse 3, a perfect example of making the word of God of none effect.


It must be awful. They are either full of fear or they feel they are as righteous by their own behavior. Of course they would probably not admit either option.

I want to add something you've likely considered too.

We know the enemy is aware his time is short. He can't overcome God's plans or the Covenant Jesus secured for his faithful for all eternity.

That being said,I think the enemy none the less enjoys injecting lies and confusion into the topic of the Gospel itself.

Those who are in Christ see this. Those who are new to the faith may be led into confusion and yet God will set that aright.

The wisdom comes in knowing the difference.

 

[Taken]

OSAS is an abdication of justice. God does have absolute faithfulness - to justice and those who are faithful to him. To say otherwise is an abomination.

Hi W-

OSAS is an Absolution.

SIN began in the garden.
It was ONE time, rejecting Trust in Gods TRUTH…equal to Rejecting God.

Henceforth, every offspring, is from a corrupt SEED.

Henceforth, every human is “born in sin”.

So what IS Sin?
Rejection of BELIEF “IN” God.

God IS Spirit and God HAS (7) Spirits.
Each Spirit IS Gods POWER.
The Totality of ALL of Gods Spirits IS Gods GLORY, which God gives to no one.
Yes, God does Give (particular) of His Spirit to …
Dwell WITH men
and to
Dwell WITH-IN some men
* a Being, that IS a “Spirit” can Never Die.
* a Being, that IS born of a mans SEED, Must, Shall Die. (God Requires all human men (body to Die).

Men (of a mans seed) HAVE a “natural spirit”.
That (regardless of the Minds ( thoughts)…
IS a mans True Belief … IN his Heart.

(IMV, side note) All the flooding reviews of Umpteen “mental illnesses” … are “literally” an internal “conflict” between the individuals “Minds beliefs and opposition of the hearts beliefs / and visa versa)

When a man, invokes his ability to pray to God…was OT
Directly To God…
NT… is Through, Advocate (acknowledging HIS bodily death and blood Offering of Salvation…for any willing man TO Choose to TAKE His Offering.

Any Offering is one thing, just as Adam was Offered to freely TAKE of the Tree of Life, but didn’t.

The TAKING of Gods Offer Through Jesus…
IS the man Freely Making that Choice, of ACCEPTING … the Offering, “and what the Accepting means”.

IT definitely IS NOT Some mans made phrase of “a license to Sin”.
Everyone is naturally born a sinner. No license needed.

The Key is understanding..
* calling on the Lord, (who IS Spirit)… IS by, through, of a mans (Heartful) spirit to the Lord’s Spirit.
* Warning / Caution to be VERY Sure you are prepared to Call on the Lord, to Accept His Offering…
* Because the man IS MAKING an Eternal “Commitment”.
* And the Lord has the Power and Authority TO SEAL Once and Forever the “agreement” between That man and the Lord.
* Remember scriptural teaching.. test / verify everything… the Lord God Does.
* A mans confession to the Lord… is Absolutely Verified.
True? Move forward.
False (just lip service to impress by-standing witnesses)… oops, a lie to the Holy Spirit.
* Once confirmed a True Confession… that both the man and the Lord know IS TRUE…
* Then What?
* The BODY MUST DIE, before the “Gift of Salvation IS Literally GIVEN”.
* That is Where…
* a crucifixion WITH JESUS, can take place, and (until that mans OWN body is physically mortally Dead)… that man “resides IN” Jesus’ risen glorified body … called being;
“IN Christ”. (Waiting for his own mortal death and own body to be risen IN Glory)
* such person, (while mortal body still walks about) IS prepared…
** to Serve the Lord, speaking Gods Word to willing listeners.
** to be “Risen Up to the Lord, in the Clouds”,
Meet the Lord, their Union Blessed by God,
Wait for ( Tribulations and Wrath FROM Heaven UPON the Whole Earth to commence, )and the Lord to Return….
With “His Bride, Church, Saved, Risen Glorified” After the Trib. (Commence with Jesus’ 1,000 year reign….)
His Servant Angels With Him.
His Servant (saints) Bride / Church With Him

Not to over Look… many men ON Earth… especially ISRAEL. Shall be experiencing…portions of the 21 Wraths / Tribulations sent from Heaven.
* Some Will Confess Belief… (and crucified with Jesus?) No. “mortal DEATH”? YES and their Soul Saved, rises to Heaven, and their body’s Resurrected in the First Resurrection.
* Some will believe, but not mortally Die. Nor be soul Saved. They are the human Remnant
That will repopulate the Earth During Jesus’ 1000 yr reign.
* Some Will continue to Reject Belief, mortally Die in Unbelief… and bodily raised Second Resurrection… judgement.

Point…
Salvation IS ONLY “literally” Given By the Lord and Received unto a man…
AFTER a mans BODY. (According to Gods Accounting), IS Dead.

A man Having “Received Salvation”…
Has “Received the Power of God (one of Gods Spirits) IN such Man.

Begging the Question…
How does a “Saved Dead man”…Come back to Life, Relinquish his Salvation…. when the Power of God IS IN that man… Keeping that man Saved?

Which IS the meaning / Understanding of OSAS

And SIN “IS” Against God.
Meaning, Unbelief IN God…
That Only the Lord God can Forgive.

@ Rich R


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Pentecost. Would you agree that something changed on that day?

No, not theologically.

Besides, abiding is not the same as salvation. When we don't abide, we certainly lose many blessings in this life, but we are still saved by grace, by incorruptible seed.

Well, that’s doubling down on where we disagree. Abiding IS the same as salvation and the primary blessing we lose by not abiding or producing fruit or losing salty flavor IS salvation.

Moses didn't abide when he hit the rock twice to get watr. Because of his disbelief, he was not able to have the blessing of entering the promised land during his lifetime. Do you think Moses will not be in the coming millennial kingdom because of that?

Yes, because despite being a murderer, let alone hitting a rock twice, he was not a habitual sinner and set the OT standard for abiding in the Lord.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'd reply, but I'm afraid it may sound like I'm lecturing.

Ohhhhh, I think you're copping out, here, Rich. I just asked you some questions about what you believe. I think you can reply in such a way that noone, including me, would ever think you're lecturing, or speaking down your nose, or anything of the sort. And, I totally get what you're really saying here and why you said it.<smile>

Besides, you misunderstand much of what I say.

I don't think so, Rich. A lot of times I read what you say, and I think it's how you say what you say... it's ambiguous. I think there are times (and this is probably true of me sometimes, too) that you don't use your words well. So, I'm actually trying to get you to clarify, and thinking, "Yeah, it's possible ~ possible ~ that he means... 'A'... but he seems to be saying... 'B.'" Between two people, Rich, if a message is unclear or misunderstood by the receiver, it's often more the sender's fault than the receiver.

The main thing is that my words are misunderstood.

So, building from what I said above, misunderstanding is not necessarily the issue.

BTW...grace and peace to you, PinSeeker.

Thank you, Rich. Yes, so to you, in Aaron's words (given to him for Israel by God Himself, of course) in Numbers 6... "The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace."

 

[PinSeeker]

Abiding IS the same as salvation...

Only in a certain sense, Wrangler. As I have said ~ and I don't think, previous to now, to you, but will now ~ there is a sense in which we have been saved, but simultaneously a sense ~ a different sense ~ in which we are being saved. The latter is the sense in which we are abiding in Christ, but only that we are being saved (by the power of God, of course) and simultaneously abiding in Jesus (also by the power of God, because of the Holy Spirit's work in us and sustaining us in Christ to the end, to the Day of Christ.

...the primary blessing we lose by not abiding or producing fruit or losing salty flavor IS salvation.

I love that GIF... <chuckles> No, we can take a step back in our sanctification, but we cannot lose our salvation. The gifts and the calling of the Lord are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). Again, if God has begun a good work in you, He will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the Day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Yes, because despite being a murderer, let alone hitting a rock twice, he was not a habitual sinner and set the OT standard for abiding in the Lord.

Hmmm, well Moses was a sinner, just like any of us. But He was redeemed by Christ. This is kind of an inconsequential disagreement between you and Rich, Wrangler. We all fail from time to time, but if we are believers, then ultimately, we abide ~ freely and willingly ~ in the Lord. And this is because God is at work in us ~ in the Person of the Holy Spirit ~ so that, yes, we will and work for His good pleaure... (Philippians 2:12-13) we freely and willingly do His will (our will is always to do our father's... or our Father's will (John 6, 8, 10). And we will do the Father's will because we love Him, and we love Him because... He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

you don't use your words well. So, I'm actually trying to get you to clarify, and thinking, "Yeah, it's possible ~ possible ~ that he means... 'A'... but he seems to be saying... 'B.'"

Like saying ‘incorruptible seed’ AS IF that. means the same 5hing as it took root, produced fruit AND totally took over our entire being.

 

[Wrangler]

Only in a certain sense, Wrangler.

Again, when I say something and one way could be wrong, I meant the other way. LOL

Seriously, it’s funny how you assert how others are right but only from a certain POV.

 

[Rich R]

Ohhhhh, I think you're copping out, here, Rich. I just asked you some questions about what you believe. I think you can reply in such a way that noone, including me, would ever think you're lecturing, or speaking down your nose, or anything of the sort.

Why don't you just answer all the questions in a way that would be palatable. I have no idea how do it.

 

[Rich R]

No, not theologically.

Nothing changed on Pentecost???? That's a non-starter to understand God's plan. A verse in Hebrews comes to mind:

Heb 5:12,

For, even when ye ought to be teachers, by reason of the time, again, have ye, need, that one be teaching, you, what are the first principles of the oracles of God, and have become such as have, need, of milk, not, of strong food;​

 

[Wrangler]

Nothing changed on Pentecost???? That's a non-starter to understand God's plan.

Correct! Nothing theologically changed on Pentecost. Odd that you substitute thoughtful discussion with repeating questions with 4 question marks.

Obviously, we understand God’s plan very differently! And your question was a setup, a trap that I didn’t fall for 1 little bit.

The Scripture you quoted didn’t prove anything about the Penetecost. Like your accusation of asserting sonship, I have no idea how you connect that verse with OSAS.

Make a Blessed Day!