Once you join a church you will be accountable...

[Ferris Bueller]

God calls the increase of 5 talent-weights "faithful over a few things" ((Matthew 25:21)) and exactly the same of the increase of 2 talent-weights. "few things" - tho comparatively enormous wealth by human standards.

Which should show you just how great life and knowledge will be in the kingdom to come. Even the wealth of God in this life is but a little compared to what we will have in the life to come. And no one will be entrusted with that great wealth in the life to come who has not been faithful with the little bit he was given in this life.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

((where else does Christ-God call something very small, very great? now we have to understand 'mustard seeds'

As I pointed out in a previous post, the Parable of the Sower is where we learn what the talent in the Parable of the Talent is. And so, also, we can learn from the Parable of the Sower more about what it means to be given talents and bringing increase to those talents by reading about how the seed is given and how the soil produces it's increase, and perhaps most importantly what that increase is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God rewards them with entrance into His joy - salvation.

But more than just salvation. They receive things in the kingdom commensurate with the amount of talents they were given and brought increase to.

Which reminds me, I have to address the point about putting the talent in the bank that someone brought up.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God rewards them with entrance into His joy - salvation.

Contrast the Parable of the Talents with what each person receives in the kingdom in the Parable of the Workers in the Field (Matthew 20:1-16) who, no matter how long or short they worked in the field received the same pay. That's a Parable about salvation itself.

 

[post]

No, maybe, maybe, and no.

People get educated in the things of God, then they either act on that knowledge bringing increase to it, or they don't.

in the parable, the talent-weight is a gift of God, and belongs to God: it is devoted to God, set apart unto God, returned to Him when He retruns, and the reward to the faithful servants is neither the talent-weight nor the increase. the increase is also given to Him, being the growth of that which is His.

the wicked hides the gift of God, accuses God of not-sowing and reaping what does not belong to Him. he calls God a thief. is he correct?

did the wicked ever intend to return the gift of the devoted thing back to God?

 

[post]

I have to address the point about putting the talent in the bank that someone brought up.

i think we have to deal with v.26 before we can deal with v.27

‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed'​

is the Lord corroborating the wicked man's statement?
is the Lord agreeing with him?
does the Lord reap what He has not sown, does the Lord not sow seed? does He steal fruit from gardens He did not plant?

or is He questioning the wicked man?
should this be read, oh you discovered this about me! or should it be read oh, you believed that lie, did you?

sorting that out will clearly affect how we understand v.27:

'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest'
​

if God is admitting that He doesn't sow any seed, but steals fruit from gardens that He didn't plant, then this statement is instructing the wicked servant in righteousness ((as speaking to Cain in Genesis 4:7)).
if however God is rejecting the accusation of the evil one in v.26, then v.27 is a statment in a tone of derision. in that case whether the talent-weight gift of things belonging to God, to be returned to God multiplied, can be 'deposited in a bank to gain interest' or not is in question. that would be cast also into a derisive light, a direct rebuke of the burying of the talent-weight property set apart to God. He would be effectively saying, you who believe God is evil, you would have been better off burying this talent-weight in someone else's tent - someone like a bank, which increases money by borrowing what does not belong to them ((your deposit)), trading with it, and giving back some of the increase to you along with what you deposited, when you return.

of note is the fact that the faithful did not deposit the property of God in a bank. they magnified it through trading ((Matthew 25:16-17))
effectively, they are like banks. and what does God do? takes the thing devoted to Him away from the evil one, and gives it to the faithful one.


you getting a hint of how incredibly deep and complex this parable is?

 

[post]

you getting a hint of how incredibly deep and complex this parable is?

of course there is a straightforward, superficial message here: do not let the good treasures God has granted you go to waste.
but that is just the most basic, elementary truth. the outer petal of the infinitely opening lotus.

remember how that Christ is testified of all over the entire OT, but it was hidden, until He was manifest among men and revealed it? and that He chided the disiples for not understanding such things from what is written ((Luke 24:25-27))? this parable is the same, it is full of great widom, teaching innumerable things about His kingdom and righteousness

the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings to search out a matter
(Proverbs 25:2)​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

should this be read, oh you discovered this about me! or should it be read oh, you believed that lie, did you?

That is the servant's perception of the master.

Having had the privilege of seeing into the lives of unbelievers I understand the slothful, uncooperative servant's perception of the master very well. To unbelievers who don't want to serve God, God is a harsh, overbearing, demanding, unfair master.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

of course there is a straightforward, superficial message here: do not let the good treasures God has granted you go to waste.

The message is, if you don't bring increase to the knowledge of God He has given to you, you will be cast out into outer darkness, not share in the kingdom abundance of those who did bring increase to the knowledge of God they were given. A lesser point, just possessing knowledge of God won't secure you the abundance of the kingdom of God.

 

[theefaith]

@Lambano Strictly speaking, tithes relate to the Levites to whom they were supposed to be given. If ppl now want to give more than a tenth, then more power to them, but in giving in the NT liberty rules, not law. Hebrews 7.12 makes it clear than the Levitical priesthood's surpassing has brought a change in the law.

One can also see how some church leaderships feel how they have a vested interest in blurring the distinction between the church and Israel.

tithes as an ordinance with a definite percentage was done away with, God loves a cheerful giver!

we must support the ministry’s of the apostles in spreading the gospel but as we see fit to do so

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinancesthat was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[theefaith]

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38


Christian ritual of baptism:
Immersion, sprinkling, pour pure water over the forehead three time with the words, I baptize thee in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit! Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Acts 2:38-39 Acts 8:36-38 Acts 22:16
1 Pet 3:21

Proper intention: to make a new creature in Christ, to put on Christ, initiation into the new covenant of grace
Matter: pure water
Form: the words

Born again! Born from above!


'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!

 

[dev553344]

Note: members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (nicknamed "Mormons", I am one) totally acknowledge that other folks are Christian too, have good things, and will be spending eternity dancing around with Christ. LDS Christians do believe that LDS Christian theology is most correct, just like Baptist Christians believe that theology is most correct, and every other group does.

When a person wishes to join Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, they should do so because they feel Christ calling them that way after study & prayer. Not man. When a person is baptized, they make promises with God, not the church. The word "promise" or "covenant" are used to describe this, not "vows". The promises are to bear one another’s burdens, stand as witnesses of God, serve Him, and keep His commandments. And wen we falter, there's repentance- He is always there.

I was Mormon for a while, ten years, I prayed about it and never received an answer from God other than the Holy Spirit asking me if I believed the Mormon teachings. I took that as God wanting me to figure it out on my own. When I read the bible I felt the Holy Spirit. I did not feel the Holy Spirit when I read the book of Mormon.

One of the problems I see with the Mormon church is that they teach that if you don't live up to your covenants you will be under Satan's power. I think that is a type of fear based teaching to compel people to not leave the Mormon church. There is some scriptural relevance to that teaching for addictive obsessions:

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I guess I'm not really sure which addiction is a problem. Coffee is supposed to be good for you. And the bible teaches that alcohol has its purpose:

Proverbs 31:6-7

King James Version

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

-----------------------

Which leaves tobacco. I recently read a study done on cancer. Which is the main concern for tobacco use. It was clear that anything that had smoke involved was cancerous. From cigarettes to smoked meats. But they failed to link smokeless tobacco to increased risk of cancer (Concerned about cancer...). And if I remember my story correctly Joseph Smith received a revelation in regard to his wife getting upset in church meetings where everyone was spitting chew tobacco on the floors. Which is when he received his Words of Wisdom.

Of course these things are addictive, but then so is food, codependency, love, hate, peace, contention, and sex among other things. So what I'm getting at is that Romans 6:16 is highly debatable. I think anything you get pleasure from can be addictive.

I should add that I feel you will feel the Holy Spirit stronger without any coffee, tobacco or alcohol.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I wanted to start a discussion to explore where the bible says that once you join a church and take their vows you will be held accountable by God. I've noticed a few churches that say this. And I'm sure it causes Godly fear for the members not to leave:

Catholic
Mormon

Are there any others? Please let me know.

But please quote scriptural evidence to support these ideas as this is the bible study forum.

Romans 12:16
Colossians 3:13
Galatians 6:2
Loving one another;
Being of one mind;
Bearing each others burdens;
Forgiving one another.

The Church is the Body of Christ and we are all members as cells in an organism.
Individual churches require these things of each other. We are accountable, otherwise where is the love?
If you are isolated, living in the boondocks somewhere, you are disconnected and therefore not accountable to a group, jusy maybe your family and close friends.
When you are joined to a larger group of Christians, they see your works, your faults, if you are a blessing or a burden and so we must respond to these needs and problems - it is expected of us.
We are accountable to our families in the same way.

***Caution: Some churches are legalistic and more controling over their congregation than is healthy.
A shepherd leads his flock but can cross over the line and go beyond his calling of authority to a level where it becomes a cult. A church like this controls the way you think and live, limiting and restricting your freedoms, depriving you of common joys of life, relationships outside their bubble, monitoring your every move, is quite invasive and in your face. This has a negative if not damning effect on your salvation, communion with God and your eternal destiny. Watch out!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

One of the problems I see with the Mormon church is that they teach that if you don't live up to your covenants you will be under Satan's power. I think that is a type of fear based teaching to compel people to not leave the Mormon church.

"Mormonism", which believes that even un-repentant sinful idol worshipers get a happy eternity, is likely one of the least-fear based faiths out there.

As to keeping your covenants, aka promises with God: they are are to bear one another’s burdens, stand as witnesses of God, serve Him, and keep His commandments. Yes, I will stand by that doing these things does help fortify a person against sin and the devil's temptations. They don't make a person immune from temptation-- not at all!! Failures still happen, hence repentance. And yes, obviously addiction is real. But following what Christ tells you to do (for example) does help fortify.

And there is SO much more to following Christ than tobacco, coffee, and alcohol. Like eating pig meat, those are tiny things.

 

[post]

The message is, if you don't bring increase to the knowledge of God He has given to you, you will be cast out into outer darkness, not share in the kingdom abundance of those who did bring increase to the knowledge of God they were given. A lesser point, just possessing knowledge of God won't secure you the abundance of the kingdom of God.

so your position is that salvation is by cognitive prowess?
the wicked servant wasn't smart enough to be saved? ((vis-a-vis zero ability))

 

[Ferris Bueller]

'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest'
if God is admitting that He doesn't sow any seed, but steals fruit from gardens that He didn't plant, then this statement is instructing the wicked servant in righteousness ((as speaking to Cain in Genesis 4:7)).
if however God is rejecting the accusation of the evil one in v.26, then v.27 is a statment in a tone of derision. in that case whether the talent-weight gift of things belonging to God, to be returned to God multiplied, can be 'deposited in a bank to gain interest' or not is in question. that would be cast also into a derisive light, a direct rebuke of the burying of the talent-weight property set apart to God. He would be effectively saying, you who believe God is evil, you would have been better off burying this talent-weight in someone else's tent - someone like a bank, which increases money by borrowing what does not belong to them ((your deposit)), trading with it, and giving back some of the increase to you along with what you deposited, when you return.

The 'bank' part of the parable is easy.
When you give your money to a bank they bring increase to it, not you. So, in regard to the treasure of the knowledge of the kingdom, when you give that knowledge to someone else they bring increase to it instead of you bringing increase to it. It's the very least one could do with the treasure of God's word. But some churches think sharing the knowledge of God is the best and most important thing you can do with the knowledge of God. Not true. Nothing is more important than for a person to put the word of God to work in their own life. Giving it away so someone else can do that is fine, but that means nothing if you're not going to put it to work in your own life, too.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

so your position is that salvation is by cognitive prowess?
the wicked servant wasn't smart enough to be saved? ((vis-a-vis zero ability))

Only to the extent that one must understand the basic gospel message in order to then believe and trust in it.
Note how the first kind of soil in the Parable of the Sower was the individual who did not understand the message. While the one who did understand the message of the kingdom retained it and brought increase to it:

"18Consider, then, the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the message of the kingdom but does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sownd along the path.

23But the seed sown on good soil is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and produces a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.” Matthew 13:18-23​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the wicked servant wasn't smart enough to be saved? ((vis-a-vis zero ability))

Ultimately, whether or not someone has a heart that will respond to the grace of God and will cherish and retain the word of God in faith and put it to work in their lives determines if a person can be saved. When a human heart is exposed to the grace of God, that is when we know if that soil/servant can and will be saved or not. Soil/servants that don't do anything with the word of God show themselves to be soil/servants that can not and will not be saved. It's a matter of the fundamental potential of the soil/servant that determines if it/he will respond favorably to the word of God. Most will not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"Mormonism", which believes that even un-repentant sinful idol worshipers get a happy eternity, is likely one of the least-fear based faiths out there.

As to keeping your covenants, aka promises with God: they are are to bear one another’s burdens, stand as witnesses of God, serve Him, and keep His commandments. Yes, I will stand by that doing these things does help fortify a person against sin and the devil's temptations. They don't make a person immune from temptation-- not at all!! Failures still happen, hence repentance. And yes, obviously addiction is real. But following what Christ tells you to do (for example) does help fortify.

And there is SO much more to following Christ than tobacco, coffee, and alcohol. Like eating pig meat, those are tiny things.

I watched a documentary of Mormonism that interviewed people from the Mormon church. I'm sorry, but based on the things they exposed I have to put the Mormon church in the category of a cult.

 

[post]

The 'bank' part of the parable is easy.
When you give your money to a bank they bring increase to it, not you. So, in regard to the treasure of the knowledge of the kingdom, when you give that knowledge to someone else they bring increase to it instead of you bringing increase to it. It's the very least one could do with the treasure of God's word. But some churches think sharing the knowledge of God is the best and most important thing you can do with the knowledge of God. Not true. Nothing is more important than for a person to put the word of God to work in their own life. Giving it away so someone else can do that is fine, but that means nothing if you're not going to put it to work in your own life, too.

would the evil one have earned salvation if he had put the talent-weight in a bank?
was he ever saved? did he lose salvation by not being clever enough?
was he not smart enough to be saved in the first place? ((ability))