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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
True I have no say in the matter. Why have a fatalistic view? We don't know who the elect are so we bring the true Gospel to the world as commanded by Jesus, so that those whom the Father gave to the Son might hear [Romans 10:17] the word and become saved. Don't you want to be saved?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
However, none of them, water: solid, liquid, and steam, can be functioning as the others at the same time, so they are separate even in their oneness. That separateness of not working together does not make for a true likeness of God. Try mine:
God said, Let US make man in OUR image.:
Man has a body, a physical shell that sin is not on. That is why after Adam sinned and mankind inherited the corruptible sin nature of satan, our physical body is the last to die and be reborn. Sin resides on the inside, in the invisible parts of us. Romans 7:17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Man in the likeness of God is spirit, soul and body, all working together at the same time making one person. God is not three persons, but three substances of the same person. Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
After Adam sinned, what remains for mankind and where sin now dwells in unbelievers is our spirit and soul, that are inside our physical body. All three living at the same time and are inseparable! The spirit and soul are separate and invisible. Our body contains a physical brain, but the invisible mind is in control. When someone is brain dead, the physical organ of the brain is there and visible in the morgue, but the mind is gone. The OT says that the New Covenant laws will be written on our hearts. Not the organ, but our emotions and the conscience. That is our soul. It too controls us and is where sin used to dwell together with our mind. Both the invisible inner spirit and soul are what dies when we are being born again, Romans 6:6-7 and frees us from sin. Before this, together they were our "carnal flesh" or carnal nature or sin nature or "old man." In 1 John 3:5 when Jesus takes away our sin, that nature is what he takes away - the source of sin. This nature is other than the physical body of flesh, this outer shell that must still die; not because of our sin, but because of Adam's original sin. It shall someday die and it too will be resurrected in a holy body. Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Romans 8:9 says that we are NOT IN THE FLESH (the old man/old nature) but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Him. Thus the reason Jesus said, we MUST be born again. It is this invisible mind/spirit and heart/soul that through Christ dies on His cross, and is resurrected to walk in the newness of life in the Spirit through Jesus Christ.
The Jews received the Law through Moses. So their mind had the laws written there, but their conscience was still carnal, or flesh. This half life caused an inner struggle. Romans 7:25 concludes with, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Many carnal churches teach that Romans 7:14-25 is a about a born again Christian, because of the common teaching method of the time of using present tense, making Paul seem like he is talking about his present state. No! the flesh nature had not died on the cross, because this was about those for over a thousand years lived under the law like Paul had lived as a Pharisee. But the next passage at the beginning of the next chapter shows the extreme change that comes through Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh (carnal nature), but according to the Spirit (reborn). 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Also written in the teaching method of present tense about Romans 7:14-25, but freed from those verses in Romans 8:2). 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
I would also like to go down a pertinent rabbit trail that taught me what is the spirit and what is the heart when it comes to spirit and the soul. Spirit teaches us by comparing scripture with scripture.
Romans 7:25 So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.)
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Do you see the translators error in Galatians 5:17? The S in spirit is capitalized. It should be a small s. It is talking about our own spirit, not the Holy Spirit that we walk in after surrendering our lives to Jesus Christ and are under grace, not the law. There is no struggle in the Holy Spirit, only without the Holy Spirit and our own unborn again spirit.
Another myth is that we go in and out of the Spirit. That is not normal unless you are rebelling against the Spirit within you, called grieving the Holy Spirit. And Hebrews 10:26-31 talks of one who actually quenches the Holy Spirit. A normal Christian goes all the way walking in the Spirit unto salvation. But one who quenches the Spirit could return to perdition. The horror of that latter state is that they already have an eternal spirit and soul. 2 Peter 2:20 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
It's not up to me. I'm just floating along here and waiting to see if God chose me or not.
I don't really believe that one bit, but if I did believe election, why have any other attitude?
The relevance is the Hebrew origin of the NT. The Bible is a Hebrew document. It was written by Jews to other Jews. You asked for some Hebrew idioms from the NT. I provided them.
The Greek version of Matthew actually transliterates Bar-Jonah, rather than translate it as was done in John 1:42. John's version also contains the phrase "which is by interpretation, a stone." It is literally telling us that it is a translation.
You like to reference the "church fathers."
Here's what they said about Matthew:
"Matthew composed his gospel in the Hebrew dialect and each translated as best they could," - Papias, 130CE
"Matthew also issued a written gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect." - Iranaeus, 170CE
"The first gospel is written according to Matthew, the same that was a tax collector, but afterwards an emissary of Yeshua HaMashiach, who having published it for his believers, wrote it in Hebrew." - Origen 200CE
Johann
Well-Known Member
...problem is, after the reformers died Armenian-ism, Deism and Unitarianism and various heteros teachings are rampant, to this day.
Blessings
J.
Attachments
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I think a huge mistake is thinking that God is "in control." It might sound good and reverent, but it's not scriptural and should therefore be forgotten.
God was in control until Genesis 1:26, but things changed at that point.
Gen 1:26,
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:28,
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ps 8:4-6,
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet:
Look at the world? Suffice it to say there are many problems. This world is NOT what God intended when He first created it. Man screwed it up, NOT God. Our problems are due to man's failure to listen to God when He tries to tell us what works and what doesn't work. Man can listen or not. Man has a choice. Unfortunately he too often decides to do his own way instead of God's way.
God gave man free will to listen to Him or not. It's a real slam on God to think the world's problems are His fault, supposedly because He is "in charge."
Ture, God will bring about His plan of redemption which He first promised in Genesis 3:15. That much is certain. But the beauty of His plan (the logos of John 1:1) is that He does it by convincing enough free will men to do what He knows needs to be done. Various men through the ages have CHOSEN to do God's will and that is how it will go until the logos is finished with a new heaven and new earth. Moses chose to write Genesis. He could have told God, "No. Get somebody else to write it." Likewise with Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and all the rest.
While various men advanced God's plan (Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc), it was the man Jesus Christ who always, by his own free will, did what God told him to do.
God is NOT in control. He must lovingly prod men, the ones who ARE in control, to do the "right" thing.
And God does not know what any one person will do or not do. He has a good idea, but He doesn't know for sure until they actually act. There are many examples of that in the scriptures. God wasn't sure if Abraham would go through with sacrificing his son until he actually lifted the knife over him.
Gen 22:12,
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Making the logos of John 1:1 to be Jesus in one fell stroke completely minimizes the brilliance of God and His ability to convince a bunch of idiots (all of us) to actually do the right thing. It also minimizes the heroism of the man Jesus who was the only man who totally trusted God moment by moment for some 30+ years. Jesus never missed a beat. He, by his own choices, always did the Father's will, carried out the logos.
If God is "in charge" wouldn't you wonder why He's waited 6,000 so far to make things right? Is He too busy with other matters to stop all the evil that goes on day after day? If He's the one who will single-handedly fix things, does He just like to watch us suffer for a few thousand years, or is He somehow powerless to stop it? If He's going to solve the problem all by Himself, why didn't He just come down right after Adam sinned, wave His magic wand, and make things right again?
Therefore, you are claiming:
1) That the Bible, in any translation, is Not Authored by God.
2) That you know so because you are wiser than God.
3) That if there are any contradictions/forgery God could not fix it.
4) That the translator of the Bible could by will add or take away his own belief in the Trinity or any ideas that he deems true.
5) That by adding or subtracting to the Bible anyone is Not in violation of Revelation 22:18-19. And so on, and so on, and so on!!!
I suppose the above should suffice for now.
Johann
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I have found that the verses that say "God gave" are talking about the apostles, and further in the same chapter Jesus talks of those who believe their teachings. Only the apostles were actually predestined in the way you believe, and those who accept their teachings are known to God through His foreknowledge. But God has not predestined some to not believe in His Son, for it is not God's will that any should perish. It all comes down to context, context, context!
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
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The OT is a Hebrew document that wasa translated into Gree, circa, 200 BC. The NT is largely a Greek Document.
And I agree with the Church Fathers about Matthre being originally written in Hebrew - so I'm not sure why you're arguing.
My position is that the original version of Mattew didn't differentiate between "small stone" and "large stone" - as the Greek does. This destroys the entire Protestant argument that TWO Roscks are beinbg referred to here.
Again - I'm not really sure why you're asrguing about this.
Johann
Well-Known Member
You might say that but it is NOT true!
We read in John 6:44, 37
44) "No man can come to me, except the Father draw him [does not mean apostles].... "
37) All that the Father giveth me [not apostles] shall come to me; and him that cometh [believers only] to me I will in no wise cast out.
That any of those that God saved should not perish but to have life everlasting!
Indeed context,context, context that you should practice and preach.
To God Be The Glory
Johann
Well-Known Member
Rich R
Well-Known Member
What? How did you get from here to there? Here's what I actually said:
"You don't need to be a scholar to learn that 1 John 5:7 is a forgery. Look at the old texts for yourself. You won't find it except for one or two texts written in the 15th century. The only reason it exists in those texts is because the translator wanted to insert his own belief in the trinity.
What does that have to do with my belief/unbelief in the God breathed word? While the scriptures are clear that God inspired holy men of God to write, there is nothing in the scriptures that said anything one way or the other about those who would a) copy the original paper upon which Paul wrote or b) translate it from Hebrew/Greek to English. God did not inspire those folks. They relied on their own ability and integrity to say what the original text said. Is it that surprising to you that they might have made mistakes, either accidentally or on purpose?
There are NO extant copies of the original paper/scrolls that were actually written upon by Moses, Isaiah, Paul, etc. Fact. I can't help it. It's not my idea. It just is that way. It's a whole field of study called Textual Criticism. It is a real thing that actually exists. It often helps to clarify mistakes that scribes or translators made in their work. They were all fallible humans after all.
Have you researched anything about 1 John 5:7? I guarantee you will come away knowing it was forged. Click on the verse link in my preceding sentence. Even the very Christian Board we are now on, doesn't say anything about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nonetheless I do believe this Board believes the scriptures. They just know the reality of the text in 1 John 5:7,
But here's the real kicker: even if 1 John 5:7 was there, and mentions a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it doesn't say they are one in any sense whatsoever, or that they are all God. It would be three individuals, period, end of story. But people are so hell bent on the trinity, they put it wherever they see three of anything. It's not rightly dividing the word of truth in any sense (2 Tim 2:15). It's simply inserting tradition into the scriptures. That's where the "adding" comes from!
I admit that I speculated on the reason, that they purposely inserted it to prove the trinity. But it'd be hard to believe their eyes were so tired as to insert an entire sentence by mistake.
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I don't know what any of that means. They are all philosophies that emerged from the Eurocentric School of Theology. I give them all zero credence. The Bible is a specifically Semitic piece of literature. Without the culture and language of the authors, people can, and do, come up with completely erroneous ideas about it and its meaning.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Fully concur with you, we need to read the scriptures with an Eastern mindset, not WEST...everything is going west and rapidly so.
The Old Paths...
Blessings
J.
“Far better for a man that he had never
been born than that he should degrade a
pulpit into a show box to exhibit himself
in.”
― Charles H. Spurgeon
“I do not preach doubtingly, for I do not
live doubtingly.”
― Charles H. Spurgeon
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