One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[teamventure]

That same amount of people could have entered the Millennium without any increase by the end. You would have to show that there was a lesser amount of people at the beginning of the Millennium and more at the end but that doesn't exist.

And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. Rev 6
A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. Rev 9:18
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Matt 24:22

and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. Rev 20:8

How can you go from most flesh not surviving to the numbers like the sands of the seashore without re-population? Perhaps you know another way that God hasn't figured out yet?

 

[jeffweeder]

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Obviously for numbers of people like the sands on the seashore you need lots of reproduction. Unless you have another explanation.

The millennium is not future is the only explanation that doesnt contradict Matt 25 and 2Thess 1.

John in Rev 20 is an expansion of John 5. They do not contradict each other.
Example...,

24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.


We have the assurance from the first century that those in Christ will not come into judgement and condemnation. ( the second death )

A physical first resurrection is not require to possess this hope. The first resurrection is Jesus. all in Jesus have this blessed hope.




Rev 20
This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) and holy is the person who takes part in the first resurrection; over these the second death [which is eternal separation from God, the lake of fire] has no power or authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with Him a thousand years.



Here is the physical resurrection of all in the tomb that happens in the same hr he utters his voice at his coming...,

26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].

28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].




rev 1
4 John, to the seven churches that are in [the province of] Asia: Grace [be granted] to you and peace [inner calm and spiritual well-being], from Him Who is [existing forever] and Who was [continually existing in the past] and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits that are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful and trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who [always] loves us and who [has once for all] freed us [or washed us] from our sins by His own blood (His sacrificial death)— 6 and formed us into a kingdom [as His subjects], priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the power and the majesty and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. So it is to be. Amen.

 

[teamventure]

The millennium is not future is the only explanation that doesnt contradict Matt 25 and 2Thess 1.

Just read those verses and they do not contradict a future millennium.
If the millennium already happened then we would be in eternity and the new Jerusalem as described at the end of Revelation.
Or perhaps you're amiennial?

 

[strepho]

Matthew chapter 24, Jesus taught one would be taken from the field. These people believe in the rapture theory, which is false doctrine.
Ezekiel chapter 13 will document how God feels about the fly away doctrine.
God hates false teachings.
Many people lack faith. Satan as antichrist will have no problem deceiving the majority. Because they're biblically illiterate.
Ephesians chapter 6, Christian people need gospel armour on. It's knowledge and wisdom of God's word.
Those banking on rapture will end up in sheol, it's holding place for the spirtualty dead. Satan as antichrist will have plenty of company in the pit with false preachers. The spirtualty dead won't be allowed in temple during millennium, documentation, revelation chapter 20.

 

[jeffweeder]

Just read those verses and they do not contradict a future millennium.

I explained how those verses DO contradict a future millennium in post 43.
You actually gave me the thumbs up for that post
Anyway thanks for the chat.

 

[teamventure]

I explained how those verses DO contradict a future millennium in post 43.
You actually gave me the thumbs up for that post
Anyway thanks for the chat.

You're welcome.
I liked a lot of the scripture you posted, not necessarily your take on them.
Take care.

 

[Davy]

That is incorrect because spiritual bodies cannot re-polulate the earth which happens during the 1,000 year reign. Those who go into the millenium must be of fleshly bodies except for those who have been raptured and are reigning with Christ at that time.

And that is a false understanding of the rapture. Scripture says
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51‭-‬52 KJV

Clearly only speaking of believers there.

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

Don't feel bad because you never looked up in the Old Testament prophets just where Apostle Paul quoted that death swallowed up in victory idea of 1 Corinthians 15.

I realize the above Isaiah passage is like a hint only about God casting off the flesh on that day of Christ's future return, but that's what that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations" is about. That is what GOD means by death being swallowed up in victory. Christ defeated 'death' for all peoples, not just for the Church, and that ain't universalism either...

1 Cor 15:51
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

The difference Paul showed in verse 53-54 is that for one to have Eternal Life their "this mortal" part MUST put on immortality. The wicked will only go through the first change, which is a change to their "spiritual body". That is... the type body of the "resurrection of damnation" also, not just those in Christ of the "resurrection of life" (see John 5:28-29, yet another Scripture many preachers omit).

 

[Davy]

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

Isaiah 65:20 NIV

That is a description of flesh in the 1,000 years, or perhaps you don't believe in a literal thousand year reign.

That Isaiah passage is an EXPRESSION for the idea of longevity regarding the world to come. It's not about a NEW flesh body, nor existing flesh bodies. You are following an old false Jewish tradition by thinking Christ's coming Kingdom will be one of flesh. I suppose you also believe the old false Jewish tradition that those dead in the ground will have their flesh literally raised to 'another' new flesh body, which is not Biblical, because Apostle Paul said that "flesh and blood and cannot inherit the kingdom of God..." (1 Cor.15:50).

So stop pick-n-choosing the parts of The Bible you want to believe while discarding the rest.

 

[Davy]

That cannot be true because the unsaved people at the end of the tribulation and beginning of the 1,000 years will be those who have taken the mark of the beast. You think Christ is going to allow people with the mark of the beast enter his holy kingdom on earth? Never.

That's just it, Revelation 22:14-15 tells you the wicked are still outside the gates of the holy city during the time of Christ's thousand years reign. And in that Scripture is revealed the Tree of Life inside the gates, and those who have right to it at that time, and that is NOT the new heavens and new earth time yet. Ezekiel 47 showed you the return of God's River of the waters of life, and the Tree of life, for the time same time when God's House is established LITERALLY ON EARTH, when Jesus returns. Zechariah 6 even reveals Christ will build the future millennial temple. The deceived Jews today think that also about Messiah, but the Messiah that is coming to them first at the end of this present world will be a false-Messiah, the Antichrist. Thus their 3rd temple they plan to build for this present world will NOT be God's House of Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

 

[teamventure]

You are following an old false Jewish tradition by thinking Christ's coming Kingdom will be one of flesh.

So stop pick-n-choosing the parts of The Bible you want to believe while discarding the rest.

Actually quit disregarding scripture altogether by denying the literal passages and their implications.

 

[jeffweeder]

You're welcome.
I liked a lot of the scripture you posted, not necessarily your take on them.
Take care.

I would have loved chatting about your take on those scriptures.
You take care also.

 

[jeffweeder]

That's just it, Revelation 22:14-15 tells you the wicked are still outside the gates of the holy city during the time of Christ's thousand years reign.

The Holy city is seen after the millennium and GWT Lol.
So they are outside the city because they are in the Lake of fire.

Rev 21
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

8 But as for the cowards and unbelieving and abominable [who are devoid of character and personal integrity and practice or tolerate immorality], and murderers, and sorcerers [with intoxicating drugs], and idolaters and occultists [who practice and teach false religions], and all the liars [who knowingly deceive and twist truth], their part will be in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


rev 22
12 “Behold, I (Jesus) am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to the merit of his deeds (earthly works, faithfulness). 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End [the Eternal One].”

14 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) are those who wash their robes [in the blood of Christ by believing and trusting in Him—the righteous who do His commandments], so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs [the godless, the impure, those of low moral character] and the sorcerers [with their intoxicating drugs, and magic arts], and the immoral persons [the perverted, the molesters, and the adulterers], and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying (deception, cheating).


There is that wonderful second coming again

 

[ewq1938]

How can you go from most flesh not surviving to the numbers like the sands of the seashore without re-population?

Because the notion of "most flesh not surviving" is not scriptural.

Perhaps you know another way that God hasn't figured out yet?

At least I stick to what is in scripture, not unscriptural nonsense.

 

[ewq1938]

That cannot be true because the unsaved people at the end of the tribulation and beginning of the 1,000 years will be those who have taken the mark of the beast. You think Christ is going to allow people with the mark of the beast enter his holy kingdom on earth? Never.

You aren't basing that opinion on scripture though. Rev 11 the 7th trump sounds and all kingdoms become Christ's and guess what? Huge numbers of marked people are in those kingdoms that now belong to Christ. Your logic is unsound.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Timtofly]

What Scriptures are you referring too?
Are you suggesting that those involved in the rapture remain in their mortal bodies?

Do you think that Adam and Eve could not have any children until they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Tribulation saints have to be Christian.

This makes no sense. Did Adam and Eve have to be Christians the rest of their lives?

Were Abraham and David Christians?

 

[Timtofly]

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

It is written in the context of the NHNE, not the Millennium which is before the NHNE in NT prophecy. This really is a different concept of a NHNE, in OT themes and concepts. In teh NT NHNE, everyone is immortal so all the talk of children, growing old and dying is not something that will happen in the NT NHNE.

You have the argument wrong. Isaiah 65 is the Millennial Kingdom for the very reason it is not the NT NHNE. There is no death period after the Millennium. There is the punishment of death in Isaiah 65. Isaiah 65 is the iron rod rule of the Millennium.

After the total destruction of the Second Coming and the abomination this earth becomes during this time of judgment, there has to be a new heaven and earth, like after the Flood. Not a new creation, but God restores the earth after judging the earth. It won't take a thousand years to clean up the mess. The point of the Millennium is a Day of rest, not a punishment of cleaning up the earth after 6,000 years of destruction.

Humans do build and plant. But then stay in the same location and never move. Their children grow up and move away to repeat the process until the whole earth is subdued.

 

[Davy]

Actually quit disregarding scripture altogether by denying the literal passages and their implications.

I haven't denied any of God's written Word. I'm not popular because I do not follow pop traditions of men like you do.

 

[Davy]

The Holy city is seen after the millennium and GWT Lol.
So they are outside the city because they are in the Lake of fire.

No, the holy city exists on earth during... Christ's "thousand years" reign. That's what the "camp of the saints" is per Rev.20:

Rev 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

This is further confirmed in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters, which details the literal physical Millennium sanctuary on earth with God's River flowing out from under it, and the Tree of Life manifested on either side of that River. That sanctuary there is called God's House. The holy city will be manifested with it.

Here's a map layout taken from the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapter details:

The Millennial Sanctuary and Oblation of Ezekiel 40-48. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

And per Rev.21:22, in the new heavens and a new earth time there will be NO physical temple on earth, for The LORD GOD Almighty and The LAMB will be the temple then. Thus any event taking place with the millennial sanctuary means the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect over the unsaved nations.

So only staying in the New Testament Scripture will tether one's understanding every time.

 

[Davy]

The Holy city is seen after the millennium and GWT Lol.
So they are outside the city because they are in the Lake of fire.

And like I said before, any event shown happening 'with' an existing millennial sanctuary on earth means the time of Jesus' thousand years reign prior to the GWT Judgment. For the time after the GWT Judgment, the wicked will be cast into the "lake of fire" and will not be in God's new heavens and new earth time.


So even though the following Scripture is in the Rev.22 chapter, its events are still about the thousand years reign by Christ on earth over the wicked...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

And both, the tree of life and the holy city, are shown in that time, which agrees with the future layout in Ezekiel 40 thru 47. That Tree of Life with God's River of the waters of life is to manifest when Jesus returns...

Zech 14:8-9
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Ps 46:4
4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
KJV

 

[Jay Ross]

No, the holy city exists on earth during... Christ's "thousand years" reign. That's what the "camp of the saints" is per Rev.20:

Rev 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

This is further confirmed in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters, which details the literal physical Millennium sanctuary on earth with God's River flowing out from under it, and the Tree of Life manifested on either side of that River. That sanctuary there is called God's House. The holy city will be manifested with it.

Here's a map layout taken from the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapter details:

The Millennial Sanctuary and Oblation of Ezekiel 40-48. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

And per Rev.21:22, in the new heavens and a new earth time there will be NO physical temple on earth, for The LORD GOD Almighty and The LAMB will be the temple then. Thus any event taking place with the millennial sanctuary means the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect over the unsaved nations.

So only staying in the New Testament Scripture will tether one's understanding every time.

Davy, I am not sure that your understanding of Revelation 20:9 is strictly correct.

I would favour that Revelation 20:9 speaks of Satan and his army going all over the face of the earth and surrounding/challenging, figurately the "barracks"/bases of the saints' beliefs as well as occupying the city of Jerusalem.

Just as i am sure that Revelation 21:22 is being misunderstood. The verse contradicts itself by stating that no temple exists in the refurbished city that comes down out of heaven and then states that the Lord God almighty and Christ is now the temple in the refurbished temple. However, we are plainly told that the Lord God Almighty will dwell among the Saints after Christ judges all of the peoples of the earth.

It is my understanding that Revelation 21:22 tells us that there is no Temple in Jerusalem but that when the refurbished Jerusalem comes down out of heaven that both the Lord God almighty and Christ will dwell in the renewed city amongst all of the Saints.

We must be careful that we maintain all of the related context in the scriptures so that our understanding of what has been written remains consistent throughout all of the scriptures.

Shalom