Sure I do I just have a different interpretation of it than you but I quoted what Jesus Himself said. Jesus also says that the judgement happens when He comes back and that is after the millennium.
One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib
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Sure I do I just have a different interpretation of it than you but I quoted what Jesus Himself said. Jesus also says that the judgement happens when He comes back and that is after the millennium.
ewq1938
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Judgment happens before the start of the Millennium as well as after it has ended according to Rev 20.
Randy Kluth
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Well, I don't claim to be certain about the Sheep/Goats scenario, but as a Postribulationist I don't have any problem with it? When Christ comes he will establish a universal Christian Kingdom on earth. There will still be nations, however, and they will have to decide whether to be a Christian nation or not. Individuals will have to make up their own minds whether they want to ally with their own nation's religious viewpoint. And at the end of the Millennium, they will be judged on how they decide.
In other words, I see this as a caricature of the Millennial Age which, in many ways, will be just like the present age. The main difference will be the presence of God's universal Kingdom, disallowing Satan from running interference against it.
Still, nations and individuals both will decide which way they want to go. I have no problem as a Postribber in seeing this as being what it reads. Maybe I'm missing something?
If you take the prophecy as Jesus gave it, essentially He said that when He comes in power and glory, the chosen will be gathered, He will take His throne, and the nations will be gathered and judged. The passage states that this happens when He comes in glory, so the timing is at the beginning of the millenium.
Are we on the same page?
Much love!
ewq1938
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And the unsaved cast into everlasting fire which is the GWTJ of Rev 20.
Why ask? You know we aren't on the same page. I have listed the reasons why that part in Matthew 25 is not when you think it is. Those need to be discussed for this discussion to move forward.
The passage disputes it.
Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Jesus spoke these things within minutes of each other. He will come in power and glory. When He comes in glory, He'll sit on His throne, and the nations will be gathered and separated.
Just like that.
And I saw the dead, small and great.
That is the judgment of the dead, not the nations, the survivors of the end of the age.
Because you have this:
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Equal to this:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Because you hold to that equivalency, when you come to:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations:
You say, NO, it's Not actually when He comes in power and glory like He said a few minutes ago, it's a different coming. And it's not the living nations, it's the dead. And they aren't being rejected according to whether they cared for Jesus' brothers, they are rejected for not being in the book of life.
And the simple truth is, the passages are both written certain ways, and I hold to the specificity of what those passages say while you assert that it says This, but actually means That, because of this other idea you have.
For one apparent though not specifically stated equivalency, you've overturned the specific saying of several parts.
But you do disbelieve the plain wording. You think it means something different than the words say.
Personally I think it takes more effort to reject halfway conclusions and to harmonize all the passages as written.
But at the end of the day, I believe,
Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Exactly as written, in context. Plain and simple. I don't think you can say that, you have a "solid Scriptural interpretation" that tells you it means someing different.
Much love!
Keraz
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This dispute arises because you think that all of Matthew 25:31-46 happens at the same time. It doesn't, proved by how Eternal punishment and Eternal life, do not come until after the Millennium.
Jesus simply continued His talk on what will happen after His Return, in verse 46; with the eventual fate of the ungodly and of the righteous.
If you insist that the GWT Judgment happens at the Return, you have seriously mis-read Revelation 20.
ewq1938
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It's context. Keep in mind the context.
This is where you need the context.
Then they will rise to stand before God, being dead. There they are being gathered to Jesus' throne on earth. Context and parallel passages.
This word you speak is good.
Much love!
Randy Kluth
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I'm not sure? Here's the passage....
Mat 25.31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."
Where does it say the "chosen will be gathered?" It says, *all the nations* will be gathered before God. This most certainly is at the 2nd Coming of Christ. And Jesus did say he will gather his chosen earlier in the Discourse.
However, here in this place in the Discourse the "gathering" seems to be different. Since Jesus is coming back to earth, is this gathering of nations *on the earth?* I don't really know, but it seems to be so?
If so, this is not the same gathering as taking place at the coming of the Son of Man, who sends his angels to gather his elect to heaven. At that time, I have to assume that is the Rapture, when believers are caught up to be transformed into immortal beings.
But when Jesus appears on earth, he returns with his glorified saints, and the nations are already gathered for judgment. And on this basis he determines who are the sheep and who are the goats by the stand they have taken with respect to the Antichrist, even though Antichrist is not mentioned here.
So perhaps we are looking at this passage differently? I think this passage directly correlates to Dan 7, where the Son of Man enters the courtroom and is determined to descend from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.
It is at that time that God finds in favor of Israel and in favor of all of God's People. As such, the Little Horn is destroyed to make way for the establishment of God's Kingdom throughout the earth.
This is the judgment that Jesus is coming to bring to earth at Armageddon, a time when he will 1st gather his elect, to transform them, and then to return with them to establish his Kingdom on the earth. In effect it will be a time of judgment when God determines who belongs to him and who does not. And this process of determining who belongs to God will continue, in effect, throughout the Millennium until the wicked are cast away forever.
BlessedPeace
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Great post. Very true.
I learned quite a bit from reading this study site, Are the Rapture and the Second Coming the Same Thing?.
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Nancy
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1 Cor. 23:-25
"…23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet..."
These verses and; others lately; have been on my mind and starting to look at some things that have not really been of much interest to me because, well, as we all have heard: "It's what I've believed since _____ "(fill in the blank). One of these subjects is the rapture. I think most Christians do believe in a rapture of the church. It's just the "when" that is usually argued.
Does it really matter though? The "when"? Shouldn't we always be watching as He told us to do? Shouldn't we be at least trying to become stronger in the faith? We're going to need it. We've always needed it~strong faith.
Can you just feel the distance of some people-friends, family, church members...) who used to make you smile and be glad for life? Some have become more distant!
Can we sing praises to God even if we lose the most precious thing our life? Can we have a peaceful countenance within the storms of life?
If we cannot do these things, what makes anyone believe we could make through the possibility of not being able to buy or sell? Should we be dogmatic about a doctrine that could turn out more than one way? If ready, prayed up and armed all the time, we will be able to face anything.
Acts 20:29-30
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them".
2 Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
So many other warnings to us to "watch" and be prepared for anything.
JMT (just my thoughts)
Timtofly
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Nope.
The Matthew 25 judgment is on a throne in a temple in Jerusalem over Israel. The sheep are the third remnant redeemed. The goats are the two thirds of Israel cast into the LOF. This is about living humans out of the nations.
The GWT is after there is no more creation, and the dead stand before God from death, and sheol and the sea.
The sheep are not physically dead, but changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, just like those caught up in the rapture. The difference is the sheep live on the earth and populate the earth. The church is in Paradise until after the Millennium. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal, and Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest.
No one is alive at the GWT, unless they are given eternal life and accept the Atonement Covenant.
Your verse in Matthew 24 says after the tribulation of those days. It does not say after the time of greatest trouble which is about Jacob and the sheep. The whole chapter is about the sheep of Israel.
The first event is the fig tree, Israel. The second event is the Second Coming. The third event is Jacob's trouble/Matthew 25. The last event is Satan's 42 months with Armageddon as the end.
Timtofly
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The part where all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh must physically die. This is not going to take 1,000 years, nor 7 years.
Being saved is not sparing one's physical life. This time is cut short lest all 8 billion people end up in the LOF.
This thousand years of opportunity is the tribulation period. That is all the time they get to decide. If God allows Satan 42 months, that last decision will be to chop off one's head or accept the mark. Those without heads don't continue to live physical lives without their head. They are literally dead and later resurrected. Those with the mark are all killed physically to be judged after the Millennium or go straight to the LOF. We are not really told. Enduring to the end has not been longevity to stay alive. It is about being faithful even when faced with physical violence and death. Dying physically is the end, not some finish line in time.
The tares, billions will be cast into the LOF. But the wheat are those who decide to turn to Christ. But the wheat also has to be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Being in Adam's flesh is like the man showing up to the wedding with improper clothing. The Millennium is not about becoming saved. The Millennium is about obedience. Those who disobey in the Millennium will be instantly killed as enemies of the state under an iron rod rule.
Sin will not enter the Millennium, and neither will natural death and decay. That is the universal point of Daniel 9:24. Not just in theory for certain individuals, like many want us to believe we are in the Millennium now. Living that way is a choice now. It won't be a choice in the Millennium. Either you have no sin, or you are physically dead. No living with a sin nature, period.
Timtofly
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The LOF already is in existence since the Second Coming. The beast and FP are cast into the LOF prior to the Millennium.
The LOF has already existed for way over a thousand years prior to that judgment after the Millennium. So saying the LOF can only appear or happen after the Millennium is contradicting other Scripture that states otherwise.
The dead come out of sheol and Death. Matthew 25 can only happen one time and those sheep then live in the Millennium as the first generation. Of course the goats are cast into the LOF. That is available since the 6th Seal, when the heavens are incinerated which is the start of the LOF. Death is introduced in the 4th Seal. After the 7th Seal is opened living humans will be placed in Death or the LOF. That is why it is the Great Tribulation. All humanity must die. The GWT is even seen after the 6th Seal is opened. That is not the same event. But humanity will not be living by faith at that point. They will see God and have to make a decision between God and death, and many will still be deceived by Satan. Especially since God just took everything away.
Post trib and Amil accept that everything on earth is burned up. But they certainly cannot accept the fact that it happens before the Trumpets even start sounding. Then they claim we all just endure through it all, because they obviously don't see how dire it will really be. So people rearrange the book of Revelation to make life more comfortable than it will be, and they call this rearranging, enduring unto the end.
Timtofly
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The angels do both. You do realize that the rapture of the church, according to Paul is in a twinkling of an eye, even if the angels do the transport work?
This happens at the 5th and 6th Seal.
Then the angels seal the 144k. Then after Jesus is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem, the angels will be bringing Israel out of all the nations. You do understand that Israel has the nationality of all nations on earth currently? They represent all nations. They have been scattered throughout all nations for thousands of years.
They will all be brought and separated as sheep from goats. Only a third will be the remnant even though all will be gathered.
This is not after the Tribulation. This is the time of Jacob's trouble. No one will be left on the earth at Armageddon. These sheep changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies are those people on white horses returning at Armageddon. They were already judged over 42 months prior before Satan was given those 42 months.
Matthew 25 is not Revelation 19. Matthew 25 is Revelation 6-9. Even before the 7 Thunders sound. Matthew 13 is including the 7 Thunders.
Davy
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Terrible logic.
You have assumed... without Scripture witness, that Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect involves the FLESH. That is exactly the false premise you proposed above.
Per God's Word, on the last day of this world when Jesus comes, ALL alive on earth will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye", not just those of Christ's Church, but the wicked still alive too. This is revealed in Isaiah 25 about the casting off the veil covering over all peoples on that day.
Most believe Apostle Paul was only pointing that 'change' on the "last trump" to those of Christ's Church, but that change to the "spiritual body" on that day applies to the wicked still alive also. Man's existence in a flesh body will be OVER on the final day of this world when Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord". That is the day Peter showed God's consuming fire will end man's works off this earth, and that fire is what will end today's time in the flesh (2 Peter 3:10).
I see this parallel to Joel 3:
Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
If that is correct it is on the earth.
More later . . .
Much love!
Randy Kluth
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That is incorrect because spiritual bodies cannot re-polulate the earth which happens during the 1,000 year reign. Those who go into the millenium must be of fleshly bodies except for those who have been raptured and are reigning with Christ at that time.
And that is a false understanding of the rapture. Scripture says
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
Clearly only speaking of believers there.
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