One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[jeffweeder]

The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

Thoughts?

What Scriptures are you referring too?
Are you suggesting that those involved in the rapture remain in their mortal bodies?

 

[marks]

What Scriptures are you referring too?
Are you suggesting that those involved in the rapture remain in their mortal bodies?

If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.

Much love!

 

[jeffweeder]

If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes,

Hi Marks

If?
The NT seems to make it clear - ,that is what is going to happen...,

2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


Those Raptured are glorified and those raptured are all those who have believed the testimony of the Gospel.

no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.

Much love!

As you can see above no natural flesh will survive. Today is the day of salvation and it ends when the Gospel has been preached in the whole world. The second coming ends "today" and tomorrow starts the NHNE as other NT scriptures indicate...,

Matt 25
The second coming

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



A sinless curse free earth was prepared at the foundation of the world. So this is clearly speaking of the NHNE at his second coming.


Matt 25 cont'

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);


This is speaking of the final judgement and the everlasting punishment spoken of above in 2thess 1.


Nobody remains mortal upon the Churches glorification.

God bless

 

[marks]

Hi Marks

If?
The NT seems to make it clear - ,that is what is going to happen...,

I'm discussing the implications of that particular view.

All who are "In Christ" will be raptured, which is a certain group of people at a given time in history.

Much love!

 

[jeffweeder]

I'm discussing the implications of that particular view.

All who are "In Christ" will be raptured, which is a certain group of people at a given time in history.

Much love!

They are identified as those who believe the testimony of the Gospel...,

and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Paul includes himself in this group in 2 thess 1...,

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,



2Tim 4 speaks of the same...,

8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

 

[teamventure]

What Scriptures are you referring too?
Are you suggesting that those involved in the rapture remain in their mortal bodies?

Oh No not at all. I'm saying that the rapture can't happen post trib because those at the end of the tribulation keep mortal bodies.
There is a lot of confusion on the subjects in this thread. But it sure is interesting.

 

[teamventure]

If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.

Much love!

That sums it up well. Marks, if you don't mind I'll add that statement to the OP.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh No not at all. I'm saying that the rapture can't happen post trib because those at the end of the tribulation keep mortal bodies.

No saved Christian remains mortal.

 

[teamventure]

No saved Christian remains mortal.

I'm not talking about Christians remaining mortal but tribulation saints. It is a different group of people.
There has to be mortals on the earth who are part of a group of saved individuals otherwise no one could go into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

Someone in this thread said that the unsaved at the end of the tribulation will go into the 1,000 years to be ruled over, but that argument is very flawed because unbelievers at the end of the tribulation will all have the mark of the beast.

 

[jeffweeder]

I'm not talking about Christians remaining mortal but tribulation saints. It is a different group of people.

Scripture and verse.

Tribulation saints have to be Christian.

There has to be mortals on the earth who are part of a group of saved individuals otherwise no one could go into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

Again, I ask what scriptures you are referring to support your claims?
2thess 1 is clear that no flesh remains when the Church is glorified. They experience eternal separation from God at the second coming.

Someone in this thread said that the unsaved at the end of the tribulation will go into the 1,000 years to be ruled over, but that argument is very flawed because unbelievers at the end of the tribulation will all have the mark of the beast.

Yes true.
Those who have the mark will have their share in the Eternal punishment at the second coming. Again, only the righteous remain post second coming.

Rev 14
“Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus.

 

[teamventure]

You have assumed... without Scripture witness, that Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect involves the FLESH. That is exactly the false premise you proposed above.

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

Isaiah 65:20 NIV

That is a description of flesh in the 1,000 years, or perhaps you don't believe in a literal thousand year reign.

 

[teamventure]

Scripture and verse.

Tribulation saints have to be Christian.

You want the distinction between the church and tribulation saints stated in one verse? It doesn't work like that, you need to understand the broader context of scripture altogether.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

That is the church.

Rev 20 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
That is the tribulation saints.

 

[ewq1938]

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

Isaiah 65:20 NIV

That is a description of flesh in the 1,000 years, or perhaps you don't believe in a literal thousand year reign.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

It is written in the context of the NHNE, not the Millennium which is before the NHNE in NT prophecy. This really is a different concept of a NHNE, in OT themes and concepts. In teh NT NHNE, everyone is immortal so all the talk of children, growing old and dying is not something that will happen in the NT NHNE.

 

[ewq1938]

You want the distinction between the church and tribulation saints stated in one verse? It doesn't work like that, you need to understand the broader context of scripture altogether.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

That is the church.

Rev 20 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
That is the tribulation saints.

They are still the church no matter what other label you use. In Thess we see the members of the church that survive the trib and in Rev 20 the members of the church that died in the trib.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not talking about Christians remaining mortal but tribulation saints. It is a different group of people.

No, they are all Christians and none remain mortal.

There has to be mortals on the earth who are part of a group of saved individuals otherwise no one could go into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

The mortals of the 1000 years enter as unsaved people.

Someone in this thread said that the unsaved at the end of the tribulation will go into the 1,000 years to be ruled over, but that argument is very flawed because unbelievers at the end of the tribulation will all have the mark of the beast.

That isn't true. The mark is for buying and selling but not all will participate in the beasts economic system. Also, nothing in the bible says people with the mark cannot live in the Millennium. Scripture does state that Christ will reign in the midst of his enemies.

 

[teamventure]

Again, I ask what scriptures you are referring to support your claims?
2thess 1 is clear that no flesh remains when the Church is glorified. They experience eternal separation from God at the second coming.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Obviously for numbers of people like the sands on the seashore you need lots of reproduction. Unless you have another explanation.

 

[teamventure]

They are still the church no matter what other label you use. In Thess we see the members of the church that survive the trib and in Rev 20 the members of the church that died in the trib.

There is a distinction between the raptured saints and the martyred tribulation saints is my point.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Obviously for numbers of people like the sands on the seashore you need lots of reproduction. Unless you have another explanation.

That same amount of people could have entered the Millennium without any increase by the end. You would have to show that there was a lesser amount of people at the beginning of the Millennium and more at the end but that doesn't exist.

 

[ewq1938]

There is a distinction between the raptured saints and the martyred tribulation saints is my point.

Yes but not in terms of whether they are the church or not. The church are those who are Christians, no matter what time period.

 

[teamventure]

The mortals of the 1000 years enter as unsaved people.

That cannot be true because the unsaved people at the end of the tribulation and beginning of the 1,000 years will be those who have taken the mark of the beast. You think Christ is going to allow people with the mark of the beast enter his holy kingdom on earth? Never.