One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

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ewq1938

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Then where do they go?

Those in the military go to Armageddon and are killed. The civilians are ruled over by Christ by a rod of iron. It's like a giant prison run by Christ and the saints which fulfills the prophecy of Christ ruling in the midst of his enemies.



Scripture says otherwise:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41‭, ‬46 NIV

Scripture doesn't say otherwise. It correctly places the goats going into the fire at the GWTJ which is the end of Rev 20. The second coming is long before that We see that in Rev 19, but the only ones going into fire at that time are the two beasts. Not even satan goes to the LOF at that time.

You make the same mistake many do, assuming that the word "coming" in a sentence means the second coming. A coming is an arrival somewhere and in that passage Jesus is arriving somewhere so it's called a coming but it's not the second coming from heaven to Earth. This coming is from Earth to the GWTJ location.
 

teamventure

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Those in the military go to Armageddon and are killed. The civilians are ruled over by Christ by a rod of iron. It's like a giant prison run by Christ and the saints which fulfills the prophecy of Christ ruling in the midst of his enemies.





Scripture doesn't say otherwise. It correctly places the goats going into the fire at the GWTJ which is the end of Rev 20. The second coming is long before that We see that in Rev 19, but the only ones going into fire at that time are the two beasts. Not even satan goes to the LOF at that time.

You make the same mistake many do, assuming that the word "coming" in a sentence means the second coming. A coming is an arrival somewhere and in that passage Jesus is arriving somewhere so it's called a coming but it's not the second coming from heaven to Earth. This coming is from Earth to the GWTJ location.
Then why does it say this?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
Matthew 25:31 NIV
 

ewq1938

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Then why does it say this?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
Matthew 25:31 NIV


Because that happens. He is coming somewhere else though. You are assuming he is coming from heaven to Earth but that is not where the judgement and punishment of the goats takes place.
 

teamventure

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Because that happens. He is coming somewhere else though. You are assuming he is coming from heaven to Earth but that is not where the judgement and punishment of the goats takes place.
But isn't this a description of Christ coming to earth and judging?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31‭-‬33‭, ‬46 NIV
 

ewq1938

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But isn't this a description of Christ coming to earth and judging?

No. That passage is clear about the goats going to everlasting fire so that is directly related to the LOF punishment found in Rev 20 and that isn't held on Earth per verse 11.

I believe you are Premill from your posts so we don't believe Jesus does the LOF judging for the unsaved at the second coming anyways so that is another clue the passage in Matthew 25 is not speaking about the timeframe of the second coming. Again, verse 11 is key to the location and a non-Earthly location means a coming to that place unrelated to the commonly known "second coming".
 

rwb

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Those years are symbolic of a period of time before the Lord comes in a flame of fire.
If people know their bibles and live in a proposed future millennium after the second coming, they would be able to discern the precise moment they end and satan little season begins. They do not know and are deluded by satans little season in all power of deception.

People who refuse to repent are given enough rope that they hang themselves in the coming time of satans unlimited power and deception.

2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes, these symbolic years equate to time! Time God has given the Church on earth to proclaim the Gospel unto all the earth so the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete as men and women of faith in Christ hear the Gospel and by grace through faith believe Christ and they are born again.
 
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Timtofly

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Complete nonsense.
The sheep will forever be with the Lord in the place prepared. Nothing temporary (1000 years) about that.
Those that belong to the lord inherit Eden from the foundation of the world while the Goats are thrown into the LOF. MATT 13 AND 25. 2thess 1


If that is true then their offspring would not be born in sin as we are glorified at his coming. You are suggesting all them children rebel and are destroyed by fire...more complete nonsense. Once we are glorified we will not be given in marriage.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven [who do not marry nor produce children].

Read your bible Tim.
I never said temporary. You are projecting your opinion onto my post and then refuting your own projection. At least keep it to the point being made.

The sheep will forever be on the earth the place prepared by God. No one states that will end.

Satan deceived Eve. You are claiming that is nonsense, and impossible. Go back to God's Word, and leave your false opinions in the trash bin.

Read your Bible. I have pointed out Scripture and you call that Scripture nonsense.

Satan can absolutely decieve a son of God. He decieved Eve. So yes, Satan can decieve billions of people who never sinned nor disobeyed a day in their life, just like he deceieved Eve who never sinned nor disobeyed a day in her life. Satan does not deceive dead sinners. They are already dead sinners.
 

Timtofly

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No. That passage is clear about the goats going to everlasting fire so that is directly related to the LOF punishment found in Rev 20 and that isn't held on Earth per verse 11.

I believe you are Premill from your posts so we don't believe Jesus does the LOF judging for the unsaved at the second coming anyways so that is another clue the passage in Matthew 25 is not speaking about the timeframe of the second coming. Again, verse 11 is key to the location and a non-Earthly location means a coming to that place unrelated to the commonly known "second coming".
Matthew 25 is talking specifically to Israel, and the sheep are redeemed at that judgment, not prior to that judgment. These sheep are not the church. They are the redeemed of Israel to live on the earth during the Millennium. This is the Second Coming and Jesus is sitting as the King of Israel over the sheep and goats of Israel. Only a remnant of Israel is saved. Two thirds of Israel will be goats cast into the LOF at the Second Coming during the first 6 Trumpets.

This is All the lost of Israel scattered among all the nations since 720 BC. Also all who have been scattered since then. Hitler tried to exterminate all who lived in Germany and who he could find across Europe. Many were killed in 70AD. But that did not remove all from the earth. Only at the Second Coming will they all be gathered back as one nation. You are interpreting Matthew 25 thinking it is about saved and lost. No, it is about all of Israel being returned, and only a remnant survive.

Saved Israel as part of the church all went to Paradise at the rapture. The sheep and goats are Israel still on earth after the rapture and Second Coming. You cannot apply this to the church and lost. This is not the GWT judgment after the Millennium. These are those who live on earth during the Millennium. But not all of Israel make it. That is why it is Jacob's trouble known as the Great Tribulation with nothing compared to this time period.

I think people have the 10 virgins wrong as well. The 5 virgins are Israel who have followed Christ. The other 5 are Israel who have followed Moses and the Law. Still all about Israel and not about half the church are unbelievers and the other half are believers.

Either you are the church or not. Many who go to church are nothing. They have relied on what people tell them they are, and never made any personal decision themselves to follow Jesus Christ. That is not what Matthew 25 is about. Many of Israel will leave as the church at the rapture. The rest will be sorted as sheep and goats. Many sitting in church pews left behind will all be decieved by Satan and take the mark or wise up and chop their head off. Or all be killed in the winpress of God's wrath along with the rest of humanity. There is still the wheat harvest during the 7 Thunders mentioned in Matthew 13. Jesus will be sowing the Gospel on earth and will redeem many from all nations. That is why people are warned not to listen to false christs. But Satan will be working as well to keep people deceived.

Satan could not work openly between the baptism of Jesus and the time of the Cross. But at the Second Coming, Satan will work out in the open. All will know he has always existed. Many will still choose him over Jesus and God sitting on the GWT. All on earth will see God sitting on the GWT after the 6th Seal. No one on earth will have the excuse they don't know what is going on. There will be no spiritual blindness.

No one will say after the 6th Seal, God is talking about a non-earthly location. The GWT has always been on earth and in heaven. No one can see it because they are spiritually blind. We have been told that heaven is the throne, and the earth is the foundation. No one can build a building big enough to put the GWT into. It would also seem to be not exactly a solid physical throne, but white could mean a bright light, that our dead flesh eyes cannot even look at it unless they are consumed. Worse than looking at the sun. We know they can see it, because John wrote:

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne."

All they could really see without going blind was that God had a face. They wanted to get away from the GWT as far as they could.

So one cannot say Matthew 25 and the GWT is only some event that happens off earth after creation is gone. From the 6th Seal until the end of the Millennium the GWT will be fully seen as part of heaven and earth. Then after the Millennium, creation will cease to exist, and only the GWT will remain. It is not found on the NHNE. God will reside in the New Jerusalem which will be bigger than the GWT. The LOF will be the only part of current creation left. But how the LOF even works or consist of is still unknown, except the name. It is brought into reality at the Second Coming in conjunction with the baptism of fire at the 6th Seal per 2 Peter 3.

Just like the oceans are a huge Lake of Water resulting from the Flood. The LOF will be the result of the judgment of fire this time instead of water.

Yes, the dead stand in judgment after this creation ends. But the living can still be cast into the LOF at any point after the 7th Seal is opened. People really don't seem to grasp how bad things will get after the 6th Seal. Then they get even worse if Satan gets 42 months of the abomination of desolation. They want to procrastinate all the bad stuff and then think it will all be over in a blink of an eye. During the Trumpets, people will want to die and try to die, but cannot, until God lets them die.

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

So being beheaded cannot even happen until after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. And then only if there is a 42 month extension.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Putting arguments about the pre-trib rapture aside, there is one big reason why the rapture can not be post-trib.

The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.
This is not a reason that the rapture can not be post-trib. Have you never heard of amillennialism? There will be no literal thousand year reign on earth when Jesus returns after the tribulation.

The view that you are arguing against is post-trib premillennialism. They believe that some unbelievers will survive the wrath that will come down at the second coming of Christ. It appears that you at least recognize that as being false.

As put by Marks: If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.
That is not prophesied. Premillennialism is a false doctrine.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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What will happen when Jesus Returns, is that all of His faithful people will be gathered to Him, as Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess 4:17 state.
They are transported from wherever they are on earth to where Jesus is going to; Jerusalem.
Only them will go into the Millennium, the 'goats' will all be destroyed.

The fanciful idea of people going to heaven will never happen. Jesus refutes it; John 3:13
The idea of people being taken to Jerusalem at that time is just as fanciful of an idea. As if Jerusalem could possibly survive this when Jesus returns:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You have an argument of why we shouldn't believe Jesus' prophecies in the way He gave them.

I know the Great White Throne Judgment does not happen on the the earth, while the judgment of the nations does.
Where does it indicate that the judgment described in Matthew 25:31-46 occurs on the earth?

How can this:

Matthew 25:41 When shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Be any different than this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is a demonstration of my post:

You are doing exactly what I'm talking about here. You've concluded the judgment of the nations is the same as the GWTJ, and so you disbelieve the statements Jesus gave in His prophecy, thinking they should be understood to be saying something different than what Jesus said.
So, show us where He said there would be a separate judgment besides the GWTJ. He often referred to the singular "day of judgment". Why did He never refer to multiple "days of judgment"?
 

teamventure

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This is not a reason that the rapture can not be post-trib. Have you never heard of amillennialism? There will be no literal thousand year reign on earth when Jesus returns after the tribulation.

The view that you are arguing against is post-trib premillennialism. They believe that some unbelievers will survive the wrath that will come down at the second coming of Christ. It appears that you at least recognize that as being false.


That is not prophesied. Premillennialism is a false doctrine.
amillennialism is a false doctrine and it is clearly so because it causes people to believe differently than what scripture says plainly. If it has some grand explanation that the scripture doesn't imply, chances are it's a false doctrine.
 

rwb

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amillennialism is a false doctrine and it is clearly so because it causes people to believe differently than what scripture says plainly. If it has some grand explanation that the scripture doesn't imply, chances are it's a false doctrine.

You know not what you speak of! If Amil is false, you should be able to prove it with Scripture. Show us these "grand explanation that the Scripture doesn't imply"? If you cannot prove what you assume then you cannot be trusted.
 
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David in NJ

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Putting arguments about the pre-trib rapture aside, there is one big reason why the rapture can not be post-trib.

The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

As put by Marks: If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.
Thoughts?

The only people who are raptured are Believers in Christ = Saints/Elect

That leaves many people on earth post-trib = Zechariah chapter 14

The MOST Important reason to believe post-trib' is that JESUS said His Coming is Post-Trib = Matthew ch24

The second most important reason is that the Apostle Paul said JESUS Coming is Post-Trib = 1st & 2nd Thess and 1 Cor ch15

The third most important reason is that the Apostle John said JESUS Coming is Post-Trib = 1 John

The fourth most important reason is that the OT Prophet Daniel said JESUS Second Coming is Post-Trib = ch9 , ch12

The fifth most important reason is that Genesis and the OT Prophets said that JESUS Second Coming is Post-Trib.

And never forget this = 'pre-trib' rapture never came out of the Mouth of God = Matthew 4:4