One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

[Truther]

I suppose it depends on what part of ch. 6 you're talking about? John begins to talk about the future right after talking about the 7 churches in Asia Minor. He was to prophecy about things "after this."

So my assumption has to be that he began to speak, in ch. 6, about things that immediately began to happen. Ultimately, John spoke of the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule.

So when the 4 horsemen went out, they may have represented things that would happen all the way up until the time of Antichrist.



You'll have to explain what "world peace" you're talking about? What biblical prophecy are you here referring to?

Please show me a historical account of when any of this already happened in the last 2000 years?....


6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Truther]

OK, I see where we're having some disagreement. You think the liberation of Jerusalem in '67 somehow meant the end of Gentile rule over Jerusalem? Yes, I've heard this for years, particularly after Hal Lindsay's book came out, "The Late Great Planet Earth." His focus was on a supposed countdown to Christ's Pretribulational Coming, due to its being imminent now that Jerusalem has been released from Gentile oppression.

The error in this idea is in the equation of relative freedom from Gentile bondage with a complete and final deliverance of Jerusalem promised by the Prophets. They prophesied that the age of Israel's suffering would come to a complete end with a final judgment against the Gentiles who oppress Israel. That has not happened yet!

Not only so, but the Prophets predicted this "final salvation of Israel" would mean a complete end to the Jewish Diaspora, which has not been completed yet. As well, Israel would become a godly nation again, which also has not happened yet.

The deliverance of Jerusalem in 1967 was only a partial deliverance, since the issues of a Palestinian State remains at issue in the UN. Intefadehs have continued since '67, and the world is still railing against Israel, claiming their possession of all Jerusalem is "illegal."

So no, the oppression of Jerusalem has not yet ended. We are just seeing signs of Israel's final liberation, yet to come. I would agree with that!

I agree that 1967 was the beginning of the end of Luke 21:24 fulfillment.

Now, Trump really put it officially as the capital of Israel(Jews) in the eyes of the world.

It took that many years for this prophecy to be fulfilled.

Uh oh!

 

[Truther]

Yes. Instantly changed.

Awesome!

This is our blessed hope.

 

[Truther]

You still not understanding. Put it like this, those who have died throughout all of time have changed and are in Heaven ,in other words they have put off the flesh only those alive at His return will not taste a physical death, ie , flesh, as they will be changed .

The fact remains , Christ will not return until that time,(7th trump 7th seal and 7th vial) period!!!

satan comes at 666 before the return of Christ. there is NO rapture in between

The dead sleep.

We shall not all sleep.

It's really that simple.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Please show me a historical account of when any of this already happened in the last 2000 years?....


6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It's a good question. I really don't claim to know. As I said, it simply appears to me that the prophecy picks up where the 7 historical churches left off. My guess is that this is a transposition of what happened in Israel to the rest of the world. Just as Christianity began to branch out and spread into the world, so judgment followed.

This is precisely what happened in Israel in preparation for the beginning of the Church. Israel's false religion was exposed and destroyed, and external powers were allowed to do this in order to foster the development of Christianity as a true religion.

This is what I think is happening with the 7 seals. The world is looking forward to the Christianization of the earth, the coming of the Kingdom of God. And before that happens, false religion must continue to be exposed and judged on earth.

Conquest implies the removal of the false religion. The removal of peace implies the failure of false religion to bring peace. The scales of famine show the desperate plight of the world without true religion. And the judgment of disease and death indicates the despair in the world without true religion.

This is all preparatory for the coming of the Kingdom of God. In the meantime, Christianity exists and testifies to its message. But it is in a state of oppression and persecution. The Kingdom is yet to come. And it will arrive through judgment.

In other words, this is a general picture of the state of the world in the NT age. Far from it being a victory for Christianity, it is actually a time of testifying to the coming Kingdom, while the present world suffers. The scroll is unrolling, but it is not yet unrolled.

 

[Keraz]

Yes. Instantly changed.

1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:30-31 do not say there will be a general transformation of Christians at the Return.
A transportation, yes - to where He is; that will be Jerusalem. Only the GT martyrs will be resurrected then. Revelation 20:4

If one cannot grasp that simple metaphor He gave "as a thief" which is an anchor to show the day of His coming, then they must have cobwebs in their head.

Better get a broom yourself, Davy!
In every case, the prophets are referring the the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath, as the Day which will come unexpectedly.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will set the scene for all that must happen, leading up to the Return.

The glorious Day of Jesus; Return will not be a surprise to anyone with a Bible, as it comes exactly 1260 days after the 'beast' desecrates the Temple. 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 13:5-8, Daniel 11:31

 

[Keraz]

The dead sleep.

We shall not all sleep.

It's really that simple.

The Words; We shall not all sleep.... infers that it isn't everyone who will be awakened.

The fact is that ONLY the Great Trib martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus brings their souls back with Him. Revelation 20:4
Then; Revelation 20:5 plainly says the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgement, AFTER the Millennium.

The dead all 'sleep', they know nothing. Their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God on His Great White Throne, Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Keraz]

As I said, it simply appears to me that the prophecy picks up where the 7 historical churches left off.

It is evident to most Bible expositors, [who you usually like to quote] that the Seven Church's of Revelation 2 and 3, refer to the state of the Church thru the age and we are now in the Laodicea phase. It certainly does fit!

This is what I think is happening with the 7 seals. The world is looking forward to the Christianization of the earth, the coming of the Kingdom of God. And before that happens, false religion must continue to be exposed and judged on earth.

Obviously, the first five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended.
The Fire that will change the world, will happen next; at the sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

 

[Truther]

It's a good question. I really don't claim to know. As I said, it simply appears to me that the prophecy picks up where the 7 historical churches left off. My guess is that this is a transposition of what happened in Israel to the rest of the world. Just as Christianity began to branch out and spread into the world, so judgment followed.

This is precisely what happened in Israel in preparation for the beginning of the Church. Israel's false religion was exposed and destroyed, and external powers were allowed to do this in order to foster the development of Christianity as a true religion.

This is what I think is happening with the 7 seals. The world is looking forward to the Christianization of the earth, the coming of the Kingdom of God. And before that happens, false religion must continue to be exposed and judged on earth.

Conquest implies the removal of the false religion. The removal of peace implies the failure of false religion to bring peace. The scales of famine show the desperate plight of the world without true religion. And the judgment of disease and death indicates the despair in the world without true religion.

This is all preparatory for the coming of the Kingdom of God. In the meantime, Christianity exists and testifies to its message. But it is in a state of oppression and persecution. The Kingdom is yet to come. And it will arrive through judgment.

In other words, this is a general picture of the state of the world in the NT age. Far from it being a victory for Christianity, it is actually a time of testifying to the coming Kingdom, while the present world suffers. The scroll is unrolling, but it is not yet unrolled.

Yep, since there is no historical evidence that any of the wrath of God from Rev chapters 6-18 has happened, then it has not.

There is only alot of build up in the last century for it to transpire in the future.

 

[Truther]

The Words; We shall not all sleep.... infers that it isn't everyone who will be awakened.

The fact is that ONLY the Great Trib martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus brings their souls back with Him. Revelation 20:4
Then; Revelation 20:5 plainly says the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgement, AFTER the Millennium.

The dead all 'sleep', they know nothing. Their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God on His Great White Throne, Revelation 20:11-15

Let's review it...


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.("We" as in the living).

Not, ("We dead").

Paul is not saying, we dead.


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


Right, some will not be "stung" by death or victory of the grave.

The dead are no longer corrupted by sin, therefore this applies to the living.

 

[Keraz]

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Death will still happen until after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 21:4
So Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, applies after the Millennium.

It is those who are alive at that time and whose names are Written in the Book of Life, who will never die.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yep, since there is no historical evidence that any of the wrath of God from Rev chapters 6-18 has happened, then it has not.

There is only alot of build up in the last century for it to transpire in the future.

I wasn't saying there was no evidence one way or the other. There are different theories about what the 7 Seals mean, and I get that. I'm just saying they may not represent specific events, or they may. I'm giving you my view of the 7 Seals elsewhere, to show you how I feel about them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is evident to most Bible expositors, [who you usually like to quote] that the Seven Church's of Revelation 2 and 3, refer to the state of the Church thru the age and we are now in the Laodicea phase. It certainly does fit!

I don't see that *most expositors* have this application of the 7 churches in Asia Minor. I should think that *most expositors* interpret Rev 2-3 just as they are--historical churches in Asia Minor that existed in the time of the Apostle John!

But the supposed application of this prophecy as a design in history is interesting and credible. God certainly knew the stages our history would go through in the NT era, and may have designed the letters to the churches as a model for the various stages of church history. This way, the message would be applicable in various time periods.

Not only so, but I think it could also be a model to apply to all 7 kinds of these churches which exist simultaneously in every age! Somewhere on earth today there is a "church at Ephesus" and a "church at Laodicea" that can benefit from the messages to these two churches.

God does use unique ways to create models in the past, anticipating what we would need today. He used Israel as a model nation to speak to NT nations today that have become Christian nations. Paul said what Israel went through in the OT era were examples for us.

1 Cor 10.11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

But the actual meaning of Rev 2-3 must, of necessity, take literally these 7 historic churches and the conditions they were in, spiritually. That's why we can't base a Pretrib Theology from what the Philadelphia church went through, because it did not experience a "Rapture" to heaven! Instead, they were physically protected from a particularly bad time in their era. Other churches may not have been so lucky!

Obviously, the first five Seals were opened when Jesus Ascended.
The Fire that will change the world, will happen next; at the sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Some of these visions are symbolic. Some of it will undoubtedly be quite literal! Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[n2thelight]

The dead sleep.

We shall not all sleep.

It's really that simple.

True ,it really is that simple

However , to sleep means death ,to not sleep means those who are still alive at His coming
Let's break this down ,ain't nobody sleeping (dead)in the ground .At death ALL return to the Father, Paul just told you that.

Now let's see what happens to the flesh at death

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

Now let's break this down a lil more as far as the rapture you looking forward to

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
I'm sure you have been to school so, what's the subject of the above verse ?

His coming and our gathering, correct ?

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
What Day, is it not the Day of the Lord?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again WHAT Day shall not come ?

Simple ,the Day of the Lord....

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

So again, do tell how does Christ come before the tribulation??

You either gonna have the mark of the beast, or the seal of God , PERIOD!!!

 

[n2thelight]

1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:30-31 do not say there will be a general transformation of Christians at the Return.
A transportation, yes - to where He is; that will be Jerusalem. Only the GT martyrs will be resurrected then. Revelation 20:4

Better get a broom yourself, Davy!
In every case, the prophets are referring the the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath, as the Day which will come unexpectedly.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will set the scene for all that must happen, leading up to the Return.

The glorious Day of Jesus; Return will not be a surprise to anyone with a Bible, as it comes exactly 1260 days after the 'beast' desecrates the Temple. 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 13:5-8, Daniel 11:31

No you misunderstanding ,the reason why His return will be a surprise is because most will be deceived when satan comes as Christ, the true Christ return will be a surprise because they, the world will think He has returned ,but it will be the imposter and if one does not have the seal they will have the mark ,therefore , will be deceived

Understand that there are two tribulations ,the first of satan, the 2nd of God

 

[farouk]

The tribulation of Matthew 24.21 and that of John 16.33 are distinct, definitely, if we read them carefully.

 

[Timtofly]

Holy Cow! Is this arrogant or what? The Church is ignorant, and your word is equal to God's Word? I have a major red light going off. Nobody should believe someone who says, "Trust me--I'm God's word for you. Don't trust anybody else."

That is not what I said. I said my opinion is the Word of God as in unless I say my opinion, it comes from the Bible. My opinion is not Joseph Smith, or Muhammad, or the Sports Journal. My opinion is God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

You have it all screwed up, Paul even told ya ,that Christ will not return until after satan is revealed

Satan revealed as standing in front of a TV audience. Or Satan revealed as the lawless one working behind the scenes?

 

[Timtofly]

And now you show you doubt... what Jesus said on that 6th Vial timing as written...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Jesus gave that to point to the timing of His return to gather His Church. He gave that warning to His Church. In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is where He first used that "as a thief" metaphor for the day of His coming to gather His Church. Put all that together there, and it means His coming to gather His Church is on that 7th Vial timing. It's easy.

But you don't listen to Him there. You listen to something else, since you deny that Scripture as written.

I have no doubt it was a warning.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is not what I said. I said my opinion is the Word of God as in unless I say my opinion, it comes from the Bible. My opinion is not Joseph Smith, or Muhammad, or the Sports Journal. My opinion is God's Word.

I understand, but you should watch how you say things. It sounded incredibly high-minded! Any time you feel the need to pass yourself off as a guru to others, you should go back to your prayer closet, fast for a few days, and beg God for His mercy. Then you can come out and re-write your script.