One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

[n2thelight]

Satan revealed as standing in front of a TV audience. Or Satan revealed as the lawless one working behind the scenes?

satan as he will appear on this earth, live in color showing great signs and wonders

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

Yes he's working behind the scenes ,ie, through his children as Christ would call them doing the work of their father

but again he will come to this earth as a supernatural being , pretending to be Christ and those without the seal of God will believe it to be so
oh and his angels are coming to ,and although not named they are the 7000 that die instantly at the return of Christ`

can't say I don't understand how you don't see it ,but I know God Himself sends the delusion for those who can't see own good

it's a reason

 

[Davy]

I have no doubt it was a warning.

Yes, and Pre-tribulationalism also uses that teaching from Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about the thief for the timing of Christ's coming for His Church. They will often just throw out that Jesus is coming "as a thief in the night", so be ready! and then that's all they'll cover there.

 

[Truther]

Death will still happen until after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 21:4
So Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, applies after the Millennium.

It is those who are alive at that time and whose names are Written in the Book of Life, who will never die.

No, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be...

The dead in Christ rise prior to the Millennium per Rev 20....this is the 1st resurrection

After the Millennium, only those that are not saints will rise.

1 Cor 15 was not written to sinners, and it is about the saints' particular resurrection.

 

[Truther]

I wasn't saying there was no evidence one way or the other. There are different theories about what the 7 Seals mean, and I get that. I'm just saying they may not represent specific events, or they may. I'm giving you my view of the 7 Seals elsewhere, to show you how I feel about them.

I respect that Randy, however, we must follow the evidence in all cases.

For an example, the preterist says that the Lord returned 2000 years ago in the DUST CLOUDS of the Romans assaulting Jerusalem in 70ad...cough, cough...LOL.

They use Josephus etc. to propose such "evidence".

I know you don't believe that stuff, but historical evidence is the minimum to prove a past prophetical doctrinal idea.

 

[Truther]

True ,it really is that simple

However , to sleep means death ,to not sleep means those who are still alive at His coming
Let's break this down ,ain't nobody sleeping (dead)in the ground .At death ALL return to the Father, Paul just told you that.

Now let's see what happens to the flesh at death

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

Now let's break this down a lil more as far as the rapture you looking forward to

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
I'm sure you have been to school so, what's the subject of the above verse ?

His coming and our gathering, correct ?

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
What Day, is it not the Day of the Lord?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again WHAT Day shall not come ?

Simple ,the Day of the Lord....

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

So again, do tell how does Christ come before the tribulation??

You either gonna have the mark of the beast, or the seal of God , PERIOD!!!

The day of the Lord is AFTER the catching away.

They must not be confused.

The saints IN HEAVEN per Rev 19 and Zech 14 return with Christ to end the Great Tribulation....AFTER the marriage.

Read it for yourself.....


7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.....


14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God...



14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee....

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I respect that Randy, however, we must follow the evidence in all cases.

For an example, the preterist says that the Lord returned 2000 years ago in the DUST CLOUDS of the Romans assaulting Jerusalem in 70ad...cough, cough...LOL.

They use Josephus etc. to propose such "evidence".

I know you don't believe that stuff, but historical evidence is the minimum to prove a past prophetical doctrinal idea.

I'm not a Preterist, for sure, but I do acknowledge that Christ is portrayed as "coming in judgment" in the 70 AD judgment, though not coming with his Kingdom. You will find, if you read the 7 churches of Asia Minor, in Rev 2-3, that Jesus comes in judgment in various acts in history, and well before his eschatological appearance. For example...

Rev 2.5 If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

So even though I don't believe Jesus fulfilled his eschatological "coming" in 70 AD, I do believe Jesus was comparing the event he was pointing to, in 70 AD, with his 2nd Coming, precisely because he was asked, by his disciples, to compare these 2 separate events.

Matt 24.3 "Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

But I don't see what this really has to do with interpreting the 7 Seals of Revelation? Some relate the 7 Seals of Revelation with the Birth pains of Matt 24. Though there is similar language, I think that would be conflating 2 very different contexts.

Revelation has to do with what would happen *after these things,* ie after the history of the 7 churches in Asia Minor. And the Olivet Discourse was still OT history, anticipating what would happen after the death of Christ in the judgment of 70 AD. These are two very different subjects, and will not help much, I think, in discovering what the 7 Seals are all about.

 

[Timtofly]

satan as he will appear on this earth, live in color showing great signs and wonders

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

Yes he's working behind the scenes ,ie, through his children as Christ would call them doing the work of their father

but again he will come to this earth as a supernatural being , pretending to be Christ and those without the seal of God will believe it to be so
oh and his angels are coming to ,and although not named they are the 7000 that die instantly at the return of Christ`

can't say I don't understand how you don't see it ,but I know God Himself sends the delusion for those who can't see own good

it's a reason

This is after the 7th Trumpet has already started to sound. The Second Coming is way before the 7th Trumpet. People are starting to attempt to oust Satan, now. However just accepting that it is Satan and not some human is revelation enough. Satan is not given any authority or power, until after the Lamb has come and gathered the final harvest.

 

[Keraz]

No, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be...

The dead in Christ rise prior to the Millennium per Rev 20....this is the 1st resurrection

After the Millennium, only those that are not saints will rise.

1 Cor 15 was not written to sinners, and it is about the saints' particular resurrection.

Paul, or anyone else; do not say that ALL the dead in Christ will rise at His Return.
Revelation 20:4 very clearly and specifically tells us that ONLY the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years of the age, will be resurrected. Revelation 20:5 then very clearly and specifically says that the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgement at the end of the Millennium.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment. NOT before.

 

[Truther]

I'm not a Preterist, for sure, but I do acknowledge that Christ is portrayed as "coming in judgment" in the 70 AD, though not coming with his Kingdom. You will find, if you read the 7 churches of Asia Minor, in Rev 2-3, that Jesus comes in judgment in various acts in history, and well before his eschatological appearance. For example...

Rev 2.5 If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

So even though I don't believe Jesus fulfilled his eschatological "coming" in 70 AD, I do believe Jesus was comparing the event he was pointing to, in 70 AD, with his 2nd Coming, precisely because he was asked, by his disciples, to compare these 2 separate events.

Matt 24.3 "Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

But I don't see what this really has to do with interpreting the 7 Seals of Revelation? Some relate the 7 Seals of Revelation with the Birth pains of Matt 24. Though there is similar language, I think that would be conflating 2 very different contexts.

Revelation has to do with what would happen *after these things,* ie after the history of the 7 churches in Asia Minor. And the Olivet Discourse was still OT history, anticipating what would happen after the death of Christ in the judgment of 70 AD. These are two very different subjects, and will not help much, I think, in discovering what the 7 Seals are all about.

Well, Jesus comes to us as individuals VIA the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The rapture is a coming in a sense on the unsaved of the earth but only to take the bride instantaneously before opening the seals and unleashing the vials.

This is not to be confused as "the day of the Lord" or 'the return/2nd coming" of Christ.

There are particular signs of his coming, which the saints are to look up for their redemption draweth nigh, then afterward the end of the church age.

The church was to observe the signs to be ready to be caught away as per the parable of Matt 25.

They were not to be overtaken as a thief per Matt 24.

They were not to be drunken at the bridegrooms taking away per Matt 24.

Same rhetorical, order of events found in 1 Thes 4(Per the OP)

 

[Truther]

Paul, or anyone else; do not say that ALL the dead in Christ will rise at His Return.
Revelation 20:4 very clearly and specifically tells us that ONLY the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years of the age, will be resurrected. Revelation 20:5 then very clearly and specifically says that the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgement at the end of the Millennium.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment. NOT before.

No, Rev 20("this is") marks the end of the first resurrection.

This is only when the beheaded are raised to be with Jesus and the pre-raptured first-fruits(saints) that returned with Jesus.

Per James, every N.T. born again saint, dead or alive are the first-fruits.

They return with Christ in chapter 19, then are united with the last group to die in the Great Tribulation in chapter 20 to officially end the "1st Resurrection".

This is why the 1st resurrection group is such a big deal and are guaranteed not to face the 2nd death.

You know..."every man in his own order....".

Right, brother First Fruit?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, Jesus comes to us as individuals VIA the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The rapture is a coming in a sense on the unsaved of the earth but only to take the bride instantaneously before opening the seals and unleashing the vials.

This is not to be confused as "the day of the Lord" or 'the return/2nd coming" of Christ.

The "Rapture" of the Church is said to be the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is not a "confusion," or a "conflation," but rather a proper association.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

This reference in 2 Thes 2 places the coming of Christ for his Church at the time of Antichrist's destruction, and prohibits it from taking place prior to that day. That is the explicit teaching of this chapter!

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

There are particular signs of his coming, which the saints are to look up for their redemption draweth nigh, then afterward the end of the church age.

"Looking up" in reference to Christ's Return is a reference to Jesus' depiction of the Son of Man as coming with the clouds of heaven, with his mighty angels, to gather up his people. This event takes place * after the Jewish tribulations* of the present age.

Matt 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

The church was to observe the signs to be ready to be caught away as per the parable of Matt 25.
They were not to be overtaken as a thief per Matt 24.
They were not to be drunken at the bridegrooms taking away per Matt 24.

These are not "signs," as such, but parables to illustrate the need to prepare for the Kingdom by living a godly life--not by trying to 2nd guess when it will happen. We are to leave the timing in God's hands, and simply live godly lives to prepare for this judgment.

We are to expect opposition and trouble while we live godly lives, confessing the truth of the Gospel to a sinful world. Meanwhile, the Jewish tribulation, or punishment, will continue as an "exile" for a long period of time, which is why Jesus depicts it as a "great" tribulation. At the end of this period of confession, and endurance, for the Church, we will see our hope realized at Christ's return to destroy the Antichrist and his minions.

 

[Keraz]

Right, brother First Fruit?

Wrong. You deny plainly stated scripture.
Jesus was the 'first fruit' and the Trib martyrs are next. Then all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, are raised to immortality AFTER the Millennium.

You mention James, without noting any scripture to support your position.
James 1:12 says we must pass thru testing and trials before we receive in reward the Eternal life that God has promised to those who love Him.

 

[Truther]

The "Rapture" of the Church is said to be the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is not a "confusion," or a "conflation," but rather a proper association.

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

This reference in 2 Thes 2 places the coming of Christ for his Church at the time of Antichrist's destruction, and prohibits it from taking place prior to that day. That is the explicit teaching of this chapter!

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.



"Looking up" in reference to Christ's Return is a reference to Jesus' depiction of the Son of Man as coming with the clouds of heaven, with his mighty angels, to gather up his people. This event takes place * after the Jewish tribulations* of the present age.

Matt 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.



These are not "signs," as such, but parables to illustrate the need to prepare for the Kingdom by living a godly life--not by trying to 2nd guess when it will happen. We are to leave the timing in God's hands, and simply live godly lives to prepare for this judgment.

We are to expect opposition and trouble while we live godly lives, confessing the truth of the Gospel to a sinful world. Meanwhile, the Jewish tribulation, or punishment, will continue as an "exile" for a long period of time, which is why Jesus depicts it as a "great" tribulation. At the end of this period of confession, and endurance, for the Church, we will see our hope realized at Christ's return to destroy the Antichrist and his minions.

The celestial, cataclysmic events preceding the 2nd coming of Christ were PARABLES?

Please clarify?

 

[Truther]

Wrong. You deny plainly stated scripture.
Jesus was the 'first fruit' and the Trib martyrs are next. Then all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, are raised to immortality AFTER the Millennium.

You mention James, without noting any scripture to support your position.
James 1:12 says we must pass thru testing and trials before we receive in reward the Eternal life that God has promised to those who love Him.

Are you a firstfruit or not?


Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The celestial, cataclysmic events preceding the 2nd coming of Christ were PARABLES?

Please clarify?

Perhaps I misstated it. In post #251 I quoted your references here:

"The church was to observe the signs to be ready to be caught away as per the parable of Matt 25.
They were not to be overtaken as a thief per Matt 24.
They were not to be drunken at the bridegrooms taking away per Matt 24."

I didn't see "bridegrooms" in ch. 24. The bridegroom was in the parable of the virgins in ch. 25. In my version these were "servants," which is precisely who we are. And we really do have a "master," the Lord Jesus. I just see these more as similes than parables.

But again, these refer to matters of "right living," such as happen in real situations, such as someone indifferent to the need for security against thieves, or for servants to be responsible before their master returns. These are real life situations, and virtually the situation that believers are in. We are not so much in danger of thieves, nor of a master coming back while we're in servitude. But we are servants with a master, and we are in danger of losing our possessions.

I'm trying to convey that we *are* so close to the reality of these situations that the emphasis is not so much the telling of a parable to hide the meaning from unbelievers, but more, to make it obvious to believers that we really are in this situation. We are real servants, and we really are in danger of losing our possessions if they aren't handled properly. So for me they are not so much "parables" as "similes." But I suppose the difference is light.

 

[Timtofly]

No, Rev 20("this is") marks the end of the first resurrection.

This is only when the beheaded are raised to be with Jesus and the pre-raptured first-fruits(saints) that returned with Jesus.

Per James, every N.T. born again saint, dead or alive are the first-fruits.

They return with Christ in chapter 19, then are united with the last group to die in the Great Tribulation in chapter 20 to officially end the "1st Resurrection".

This is why the 1st resurrection group is such a big deal and are guaranteed not to face the 2nd death.

You know..."every man in his own order....".

Right, brother First Fruit?

The first resurrection is not a when. The first resurrection is a type. It is is a bodily resurrection. It is the change from a corruptible flesh and blood Adam body to an incorruptible permanent God created body.

Those in Revelation 20:4 recieve an incorruptible body without sin or a sin nature to live on earth for 1000 years. That is what a first resurrection type is. The Second Resurrection is a glorified robe of white that goes around the incorruptible body. That is the full restoration of a son of God created body. A single spiritual/physical body. The body that Adam had both physically and spiritually died, the second Adam disobeyed God. Adam died physically and spiritually that instant. He lost the spirit outer robe of white, and lost his incorruptible body, and was given a corruptible flesh body.

 

[Timtofly]

Perhaps I misstated it. In post #251 I quoted your references here:

"The church was to observe the signs to be ready to be caught away as per the parable of Matt 25.
They were not to be overtaken as a thief per Matt 24.
They were not to be drunken at the bridegrooms taking away per Matt 24."

I didn't see "bridegrooms" in ch. 24. The bridegroom was in the parable of the virgins in ch. 25. In my version these were "servants," which is precisely who we are. And we really do have a "master," the Lord Jesus. I just see these more as similes than parables.

But again, these refer to matters of "right living," such as happen in real situations, such as someone indifferent to the need for security against thieves, or for servants to be responsible before their master returns. These are real life situations, and virtually the situation that believers are in. We are not so much in danger of thieves, nor of a master coming back while we're in servitude. But we are servants with a master, and we are in danger of losing our possessions.

I'm trying to convey that we *are* so close to the reality of these situations that the emphasis is not so much the telling of a parable to hide the meaning from unbelievers, but more, to make it obvious to believers that we really are in this situation. We are real servants, and we really are in danger of losing our possessions if they aren't handled properly. So for me they are not so much "parables" as "similes." But I suppose the difference is light.

Is there a single reference in the Gospels where Jesus calls the church a bride?

The 10 virgins were not the bride, nor the groom. They were friends of the groom and or bride.

Paul calls the church, both the body of Christ, and the bride of Christ. In other words, physically impossible in a physical way.

John calls the church, in Paradise, the bride of Christ.

How about looking at it in terms of the restoration of the physical to the spiritual, where now Adam's descendants are now the sons of God? Those glorified in their robe of white will forever be in Paradise, the New Jerusalem. Those in incorruptible bodies will live on earth for 1000 years and then keep living on the New Earth.

 

[Truther]

Perhaps I misstated it. In post #251 I quoted your references here:

"The church was to observe the signs to be ready to be caught away as per the parable of Matt 25.
They were not to be overtaken as a thief per Matt 24.
They were not to be drunken at the bridegrooms taking away per Matt 24."

I didn't see "bridegrooms" in ch. 24. The bridegroom was in the parable of the virgins in ch. 25. In my version these were "servants," which is precisely who we are. And we really do have a "master," the Lord Jesus. I just see these more as similes than parables.

But again, these refer to matters of "right living," such as happen in real situations, such as someone indifferent to the need for security against thieves, or for servants to be responsible before their master returns. These are real life situations, and virtually the situation that believers are in. We are not so much in danger of thieves, nor of a master coming back while we're in servitude. But we are servants with a master, and we are in danger of losing our possessions.

I'm trying to convey that we *are* so close to the reality of these situations that the emphasis is not so much the telling of a parable to hide the meaning from unbelievers, but more, to make it obvious to believers that we really are in this situation. We are real servants, and we really are in danger of losing our possessions if they aren't handled properly. So for me they are not so much "parables" as "similes." But I suppose the difference is light.

Chapter 24 was directly speaking of a catching away and another left.

Chapter 25, in the same conversation, shows a story of righteous taken and unrighteous left.

Not too tough to see here.

 

[Truther]

The first resurrection is not a when. The first resurrection is a type. It is is a bodily resurrection. It is the change from a corruptible flesh and blood Adam body to an incorruptible permanent God created body.

Those in Revelation 20:4 recieve an incorruptible body without sin or a sin nature to live on earth for 1000 years. That is what a first resurrection type is. The Second Resurrection is a glorified robe of white that goes around the incorruptible body. That is the full restoration of a son of God created body. A single spiritual/physical body. The body that Adam had both physically and spiritually died, the second Adam disobeyed God. Adam died physically and spiritually that instant. He lost the spirit outer robe of white, and lost his incorruptible body, and was given a corruptible flesh body.

The first resurrection is concluded in Rev 20.

It is actually in 2 major parts....Christ the firstfruits, then the beheaded of Rev.

You are either the firstfruit or beheaded.

Not much of an option here.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Chapter 24 was directly speaking of a catching away and another left.

Chapter 25, in the same conversation, shows a story of righteous taken and unrighteous left.

Not too tough to see here.

Way, way oversimplified and not accurate the way you're applying it. For one, the one taken and the one left are both being judged. This was about the "punishment of the Jews," as Luke described it in ch. 21.

So in Matt 25, we are not seeing a Roman judgment at all, but only the basis by which God chooses some Jews and rejects others. Those who properly prepare for Israel's marriage to God will be accepted. Those who do not will be rejected. Not at all the same thing!