One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

[Truther]

Way, way oversimplified and not accurate the way you're applying it. For one, the one taken and the one left are both being judged. This was about the "punishment of the Jews," as Luke described it in ch. 21.

So in Matt 25, we are not seeing a Roman judgment at all, but only the basis by which God chooses some Jews and rejects others. Those who properly prepare for Israel's marriage to God will be accepted. Those who do not will be rejected. Not at all the same thing!

"One taken the other left" sure is not Roman judgement, Randy....they all got taken.

Fact is, Jesus said exactly how the taking of Matt 25 will happen...in chapter 24.

...and you thought the saints around the world were actually sleeping?

Of course not, but there are Spirit filled, Acts 2:38 saints and there are baptized, non Spirit filled saints(remitted sins only).

A husband and wife in a bed that are in the same faith will even be separated by God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"One taken the other left" sure is not Roman judgement, Randy....they all got taken.

I wasn't there, but my understanding is that normally conquering nations leave behind a small and weak population to manage the fields for them, so that the fields will not go to waste. They did *not* all get taken. Obviously, the Jewish rebellion continued after 70 AD. If they were all taken away or killed, where did these Jewish rebels come from after 70 AD?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is there a single reference in the Gospels where Jesus calls the church a bride?

The NT Church obviously did not exist until after the cross.

The 10 virgins were not the bride, nor the groom. They were friends of the groom and or bride.

I know that. The 10 virgins represented Israel *before* they could be married under the New Testament.

Paul calls the church, both the body of Christ, and the bride of Christ. In other words, physically impossible in a physical way.

Suddenly we become spirit-creatures without bodies?

John calls the church, in Paradise, the bride of Christ.

How about looking at it in terms of the restoration of the physical to the spiritual, where now Adam's descendants are now the sons of God? Those glorified in their robe of white will forever be in Paradise, the New Jerusalem. Those in incorruptible bodies will live on earth for 1000 years and then keep living on the New Earth.

I don't see the kinds of categories you are describing in the Scriptures. Are you trying to distinguish between glorified saints in the Millennium and other people called the "Sons of God?" I don't get this?

 

[Timtofly]

The first resurrection is concluded in Rev 20.

It is actually in 2 major parts....Christ the firstfruits, then the beheaded of Rev.

You are either the firstfruit or beheaded.

Not much of an option here.

So you never define resurrection?

 

[Truther]

I wasn't there, but my understanding is that normally conquering nations leave behind a small and weak population to manage the fields for them, so that the fields will not go to waste. They did *not* all get taken. Obviously, the Jewish rebellion continued after 70 AD. If they were all taken away or killed, where did these Jewish rebels come from after 70 AD?

Nope, the Jews were all dispersed per the prophecy of Jesus Christ Himself.

You do agree with Jesus?

You must have been thinking about an O.T. king story?

 

[Truther]

So you never define resurrection?

Resurrection is defined in the book of 1 Cor, chapter 15.

I quoted from it when I told you that you are part of Christs' firstfruits.

Then cometh the end, when the kingdoms of man are delivered to the son, paralleling Rev 20.

At that point, the beheaded are resurrected marking the end of what is known as the 1st resurrection.

Notice next is says...."blessed is he that hath PART in the 1st resurrection, which means what it says...it is in part.

 

[Timtofly]

The NT Church obviously did not exist until after the cross.
I know that. The 10 virgins represented Israel *before* they could be married under the New Testament.
Suddenly we become spirit-creatures without bodies?

I don't see the kinds of categories you are describing in the Scriptures. Are you trying to distinguish between glorified saints in the Millennium and other people called the "Sons of God?" I don't get this?

No glorified, sons of God, on earth for a 1000 years. They are in Paradise.

The church has incorruptible bodies now in Paradise, the first (type) resurrection. Those in Revelation 20:4, are people alive today, who during the final harvest, physically die, and are given incorruptible bodies to live on earth for those 1000 years.

Bride, groom, or other symbolic terms describes the church. Not physical or spiritual reality.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No glorified, sons of God, on earth for a 1000 years. They are in Paradise.

Can you please make complete sentences for this? I can't fathom what you're saying.

The church has incorruptible bodies now in Paradise, the first (type) resurrection. Those in Revelation 20:4, are people alive today, who during the final harvest, physically die, and are given incorruptible bodies to live on earth for those 1000 years.

The Church is already glorified, you say? That's a strange belief! People in Rev 20.4 are alive today in what way--that they're about to be martyred?

Bride, groom, or other symbolic terms describes the church. Not physical or spiritual reality.

Obviously, it's symbolism. But the marriage is real. It's a real covenant, involving us as both physical and spiritual people.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nope, the Jews were all dispersed per the prophecy of Jesus Christ Himself.

You do agree with Jesus?

You must have been thinking about an O.T. king story?

No, I'm talking about how history has presented it. Obviously, Jesus was not lying. He was speaking in general terms. To say the "whole world's in a mess" does not mean literally that 100% of everyone on earth is having a tough time!

The history of this time indicates that Jews did remain in the area, and were not completely exterminated or taken away into exile. Following 70 AD Jews continued to rebel against the Romans. History indicates that another major rebellion against the Romans took place in 132-135 AD.

from HERE
Second Jewish Revolt, (AD 132–135), Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Judaea. The revolt was preceded by years of clashes between Jews and Romans in the area.

 

[Timtofly]

Resurrection is defined in the book of 1 Cor, chapter 15.

I quoted from it when I told you that you are part of Christs' firstfruits.

Then cometh the end, when the kingdoms of man are delivered to the son, paralleling Rev 20.

At that point, the beheaded are resurrected marking the end of what is known as the 1st resurrection.

Notice next is says...."blessed is he that hath PART in the 1st resurrection, which means what it says...it is in part.

The first resurrection is an incorruptible body. The second is the robe of white, glorified. Those alive at the Second Coming will receive both at the same time. Those in Paradise will receive the robe of white, glorified, directly before. Then the church will be presented to God, complete.

 

[n2thelight]

No, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be...

The dead in Christ rise prior to the Millennium per Rev 20....this is the 1st resurrection

After the Millennium, only those that are not saints will rise.

1 Cor 15 was not written to sinners, and it is about the saints' particular resurrection.

Nope you have that wrong (IMO)

Those who have died (ALL)are with God at death ,they are those whom Christ comes as clouds with Him at his return.

Really don't understand why people say certain things are written to certain people , the Word is for all .

Now let's do the resurrection .

Gonna drop a seed to ya

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.

Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have an eternal spiritual body until they are tested after the millennium. I Corinthians 15:50-52 describes the mystery of the two bodies. The physical and spiritual bodies are two separate entities. There are also two spiritual bodies, one eternal, the other perishable (mortal). Those who take the mark of the beast will not have their eternal bodies at the seventh trump. Instead they will have mortal spiritual bodies (liable-to-die), and have to be taught again to learn the difference between 'the holy from the profane' for 1,000 years and then be tested at the end of it to earn that eternal body by choosing Jesus Christ.

What are we talking about when it says "the rest of the dead"? The difference in taking part in the first resurrection or not taking part -- which hinges on whether or not they were deceived by the Antichrist. Remember, John has been taken in the Spirit to the last day before Christ's return. Revelation 20 is talking about that specific day when the last trump sounds, and Jesus Christ our Lord is returning with His saints to the earth. This verse is not addressing those who died 50, 100, or at any time from any century prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. It is addressing the generation (our generation) who will live in the time of the seven seals, and those who will see some take Satan's mark (the mark of the beast) and give service to him.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The first resurrection were those who died in the Lord, and those who did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist during his "one world" reign. Those who did not take the Antichrist's "mark of the beast", these are the blessed and holy ones. All of these people already will possess an immortal soul during the Millennium.

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.

 

[n2thelight]

This is after the 7th Trumpet has already started to sound. The Second Coming is way before the 7th Trumpet. People are starting to attempt to oust Satan, now. However just accepting that it is Satan and not some human is revelation enough. Satan is not given any authority or power, until after the Lamb has come and gathered the final harvest.

Can't be as the 7th trump ,is the 2nd coming.ie, the last trump
satan comes at 666 Christ comes at 777

 

[n2thelight]

Chapter 24 was directly speaking of a catching away and another left.

Chapter 25, in the same conversation, shows a story of righteous taken and unrighteous left.

Not too tough to see here.

those taken are taken by satan ,out of season

simple question, when is the end and we'll go from there

 

[Truther]

No, I'm talking about how history has presented it. Obviously, Jesus was not lying. He was speaking in general terms. To say the "whole world's in a mess" does not mean literally that 100% of everyone on earth is having a tough time!

The history of this time indicates that Jews did remain in the area, and were not completely exterminated or taken away into exile. Following 70 AD Jews continued to rebel against the Romans. History indicates that another major rebellion against the Romans took place in 132-135 AD.

from HERE
Second Jewish Revolt, (AD 132–135), Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Judaea. The revolt was preceded by years of clashes between Jews and Romans in the area.

Here...

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.



The city was decimated and uninhabitable.

You better believe Jesus over Josephus.

 

[Truther]

The first resurrection is an incorruptible body. The second is the robe of white, glorified. Those alive at the Second Coming will receive both at the same time. Those in Paradise will receive the robe of white, glorified, directly before. Then the church will be presented to God, complete.

No, the 1st resurrection is a robe of white.

It is seen in Rev 19 on the saints that return with Christ.

The 2nd resurrection is all the non- born again human existence of earth in Rev 20:14.

 

[Truther]

Nope you have that wrong (IMO)

Those who have died (ALL)are with God at death ,they are those whom Christ comes as clouds with Him at his return.

Really don't understand why people say certain things are written to certain people , the Word is for all .

Now let's do the resurrection .

Gonna drop a seed to ya

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.

Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have an eternal spiritual body until they are tested after the millennium. I Corinthians 15:50-52 describes the mystery of the two bodies. The physical and spiritual bodies are two separate entities. There are also two spiritual bodies, one eternal, the other perishable (mortal). Those who take the mark of the beast will not have their eternal bodies at the seventh trump. Instead they will have mortal spiritual bodies (liable-to-die), and have to be taught again to learn the difference between 'the holy from the profane' for 1,000 years and then be tested at the end of it to earn that eternal body by choosing Jesus Christ.

What are we talking about when it says "the rest of the dead"? The difference in taking part in the first resurrection or not taking part -- which hinges on whether or not they were deceived by the Antichrist. Remember, John has been taken in the Spirit to the last day before Christ's return. Revelation 20 is talking about that specific day when the last trump sounds, and Jesus Christ our Lord is returning with His saints to the earth. This verse is not addressing those who died 50, 100, or at any time from any century prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. It is addressing the generation (our generation) who will live in the time of the seven seals, and those who will see some take Satan's mark (the mark of the beast) and give service to him.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The first resurrection were those who died in the Lord, and those who did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist during his "one world" reign. Those who did not take the Antichrist's "mark of the beast", these are the blessed and holy ones. All of these people already will possess an immortal soul during the Millennium.

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.

Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.

"Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have an eternal spiritual body until they are tested after the millennium."


Wrong

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Truther]

those taken are taken by satan ,out of season

simple question, when is the end and we'll go from there

The end is AKA, the reign of Christ.

The end begins at to onset of the Millennial and ends at Rev 20:14.


Also, satan takes nobody anywhere.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church is already glorified, you say? That's a strange belief! People in Rev 20.4 are alive today in what way--that they're about to be martyred?

No, that is not what I said. The church is not glorified until the Second Coming.

A soul harvested by an angel is not "being martyred". It is going from being alive, one second, and being resurrected before judgment thrones in Revelation 20:4, the next second.

The eternal life of a sheep. The goats go to eternal damnation in Death, and later into the lake of fire.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here...

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The city was decimated and uninhabitable.

You better believe Jesus over Josephus.

I believe the historical records, yes. Again, universal expressions are not necessarily without exception. Are you denying the history of a 2nd Jewish rebellion against the Romans in 132-135 AD?

I believe Jesus, yes. I just don't believe *your version* of what he meant.

 

[Timtofly]

If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.

Taking a stand is getting your head chopped off.