Agree with the facts you laid out... until you change "Clouds" to "Heaven".
Airplanes fly in the Clouds.
They are not flying in Heaven.
One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...
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Agree with the facts you laid out... until you change "Clouds" to "Heaven".
Airplanes fly in the Clouds.
They are not flying in Heaven.
The Son of man came TO Earth.
The Son of man LEFT EARTH.
The Son of man Returned TO HEAVEN.
The Son of man is IN Heaven.
The Lord shall Leave Heaven.
The Lord shall Descend (lower Himself From Heaven )...TO the CLOUDS
Clouds are NOT the Earth!
The Lord descending from Heaven TO the Clouds....
Is NOT as you are "twisting".
It is NOT the Son of man "returning TO Earth"!
The Earth is not the Clouds!
An archangel signals, by blowing A TRUMP.
Those IN and ON the Earth "IN Christ"...
ARE Christ's Church.
At the signal of the Trump, that is heard by those IN Christ, as a VOICE being Called Up... they respond and Rise Up...TO The Clouds!
There they meet their Lord...
Not in Heaven.
Not on Earth.
In the Clouds ...exactly as Scripture Teaches.
They ...remaining ON Earth, continue eating, drinking, going about their business...
While they IN Christ, ARE ABOVE the FACE of the Earth.
^ that is a parallel of the First great Tribulation ...of SAVED men being moved UP off the Face of the Earth, to the face of the water...while the unsaved remained on Earth, continued with their daily lives, eating, drinking, moving to higher ground, REJECTING God, until the Flood Waters Consumed them All ON the Earth...just as Scripture Teaches.
Gen 7:
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
^ the Flood Tribulation
Matt 24:
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
They ON Earth...will experience the Beginning of the Tribulation...some will become Saved...some will choose to March along in the WAY of the World, STILL REJECTING Christ and God...
Moving into the MID-Trib...
Men of the World still eating and Drinking, following a world "leader".
...However God SENDS "Tribesmen OF ISRAEL" TO ISRAEL "Gods men" ... THEY HEAR the Gospel of Jesus the Christ...They (Majority) Submit in Belief and Become Saved....their body's martyred.)
...END Trib... God pours out His Wrath and Indignation (revenge He Promised) upon
Yes Clouds are "on the way up to Heaven", NOT Heaven.
Would gander to say...Not a half way point.
I believe Gods Throne "Heaven" is Above the Stars...and the closest Star to Earth is an est. 93 million miles away.
In addition...Earth was Created for mans habitat.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
You are not comparing scripture to scripture; otherwise you would know that "taken" and "took" mean destroyed.
God took the 5 wise virgins to destruction?
God took Elijah to destruction?
God took Enoch to destruction?
Etc?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Read the verses that are comparable. Meaning the same account in two different gospels. That is what I mean by comparing scripture with scripture. When you do that, you will know what the authors meant by took and taken in the context of what is being said in them. In fact, I already did it for you. Go look.
I have.
Some are taken by the flood and some are taken to be with God in the same conversation of Matt 24-25.
The problem is that certain folks think God cannot take good folks, only bad ones.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Not sure where you think it says that some are taken to be with God. You just gave two chapters. Please give me verses.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other....
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left...
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Who was taken and who was left?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” (They are asking where they are TAKEN.)
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
What will the eagles be doing to those who are taken. Do you think those who are not in the Book of Life will jump willingly into the lake of fire, or will then be taken and cast into it.
Those who are left will be on the new earth and new heavens.
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No, you must be taken to be found here.....
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Then, return with the groom to be found here...
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Right?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
As I said before, in those passages of one was taken the other left, you must compare with the SAME wording in the other gospel for a true meaning. I've shown you in red that took them all is the same as destroyed them all. What I'm showing you is simple, staring you in the face, exegesis. Comparing scripture with scripture.
It does NOT mean that there will not be a rapture if that is what you are trying to prove. But the title of the OP is wrong. This passage has to do with the destruction of the wicked, not the salvation of the righteous and holy. Revelation 22:11. So you cannot use these verses as a proof text for a pre-tribulation rapture.
And another thing. The Great Tribulation is tribulation, not the wrath of God. It is for the making the Church pure, and for the salvation of national Israel during that time. 1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not those who are left. Those who left before the Second Coming event. Those in the final harvest are dead, but will be resurrected to live on the earth for 1000 years. Then comes the new earth. Paul explains the church is not killed, but pass as changed into Paradise. Those on earth while the Lamb is here, are killed and resurrected. That is the difference. Either all will die, or some will be changed in the air. The church is changed in the air, and enter Paradise.
This is not an escape, this is a harvest. The church is the first to be harvested.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
My point is the title of the OP is wrong. The verses about one is taken and the other left is not about a pre-trib rapture.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Here is the disconnect.
Both the flood takes and Jesus takes good people too.
"
Jesus can say that, right?
Okay, with that settled, The flood takes sinners away to feed the fish, and "Noah" (the saints) are taken before the "flood"(tribulation) takes the sinners in the wrath of God.
Noah was raised above flood in the ark and sinners perished under him, likewise, the saint rises above the Great Tribulation, not to go through it with the sinners.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I don't think you can prove it by scripture. And if there were two second comings, I think at least one apostle would have said so in the SAME teaching.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Do you know enough scripture to prove your belief with scripture? You really need to study, and study everyday, just to make sure that what your preacher is telling you is truth. It is really frustrating for me to find a church where I can learn something I don't know. Most of the time, I know more than the preacher. I want you to get to that place too.
And not only scripture, but the styles that the apostles wrote in to know what they mean. Many take scripture out of context and have the apostle contradicting himself in another chapter. That's how false doctrines are made.
I am glad you are into Bible doctrines.
I wish that all Christians were that intrigued.
Also, I am that teacher you are speaking of.
I have been teaching and debating pre-trib rapture with no help from peers anymore.
Fact is, the saints seen at the wedding in early Rev 19, were long gone to heaven prior to Jesus' return with them in latter chapter 19.
The saints return WITH Jesus, not to be rescued by Jesus.
This requires a pre-removal of them to satisfy scripture.
Here they are first found...
Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
And here is the wedding...
Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
These saints saw no wrath from chapter 6 through 19, but were in heaven the entire time, because of this promise....
Rev 3:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
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