Helen
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OSAS is the result of the finished work of the cross
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Helen
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What about 1 Cor 15:22
22 'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Everyone heartily agrees that in Adam ALL died.
Why is it so hard to believe that when God says that "IN Christ shall all be made alive"...they say not so.
But maybe this is "a bride too far."
If I can be convinced otherwise , I am listening...but I cannot charge God with sending most of His creation into "hell fire" for ever and ever and ever...as some tell me He will.
I cannot see that in His nature in any story in the bible.
As for the silly argument " they send themselves" I cannot buy into that God is GOD, man is stupid and but dust.
At the moment no one has convinced me that Jesus Christ did not come and reverse the fall of Adam by paying the full price for the redemption of all mankind.
,..." every man in his own order.."
At the moment I have to sit where I sit...unless and until God shows me otherwise.
22 'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Everyone heartily agrees that in Adam ALL died.
Why is it so hard to believe that when God says that "IN Christ shall all be made alive"...they say not so.
But maybe this is "a bride too far."
If I can be convinced otherwise , I am listening...but I cannot charge God with sending most of His creation into "hell fire" for ever and ever and ever...as some tell me He will.
I cannot see that in His nature in any story in the bible.
As for the silly argument " they send themselves" I cannot buy into that God is GOD, man is stupid and but dust.
At the moment no one has convinced me that Jesus Christ did not come and reverse the fall of Adam by paying the full price for the redemption of all mankind.
,..." every man in his own order.."
At the moment I have to sit where I sit...unless and until God shows me otherwise.
I still see the atonement as the basis for saving people. And Jesus specifically told the pharisees he did not die for them.
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11) (KJV 1900)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26) (KJV 1900)
In brief....The answer is No.
In detail....The understanding is a bit more complicated.
Which "commandments"?
If a man HAS freely Called on the Lord....
To forgive the man,
To crucify the mans body.
To wash and sanctify the mans body.
To justify the mans body, for a Glorious raising up to Him.
To cover the mans body of sin, with His Light,
To keep the mans body, until He redeems it,
To restore and save the mans soul,
To give the man a circumcised new heart,
To give the man Gods Seed,
To the man to receive Gods Seed, that births a mans new spirit,
To receive the Spirit of God within the man,
To be in and with that man henceforth forever,
To keep the man free from ever again committing Sin...
Would you say a man Freely Chose for God to have Authority Over, that mans Spiritual NeW Creature the Lord Made?
And what about the OLD FLESH, that is still alive physically, BUT YET Spiritually Dead IN Christ?
Who and what is controlling that OLD NATURAL still living and breathing FLESH?
The man and His MIND.
Thee Lord God has PROVIDED that man WITH the POWER, to "overcome" his own Flesh and Mind, as it still exists, living and breathing.
Does God EXPECT, or even Teach, Every man, TO INSTANTLY KNOW HOW, to use the Power within them, TO Overcome their own natural still living flesh and MIND? No.
They have the TOOLS, to do so, BUT, it is a learning process for a man to LEARN HOW TO USE the TOOLS, (power) God provides a man.
It is a process for a man to decide TO delve into or not. The intent is for the man to discover its PURPOSE, is the mans EFFORT, TO: Continue on BEYOND what the Lord has DONE....Spiritually Changing the mans body, soul, spirit and GIVING the man the POWER, for the man to MAKE HIS OWN MIND, LIKE the MIND OF Christ....Subject TO, the thoughts of the Spirit of God, that dwells IN the mans NEW spirit.
Does a man, Who IS Spiritually Changed...LOSE that Change, Because he is "lax, or faulty, or doesn't yet know HOW TO use Gods power within him"? No.
There are many a men, WHO receive the Lords Conversion...and are Content with that LIMIT. They shall ALSO have to be Content with receiving A CROWN OF LIFE.....
And while remaining on Earth, have to deal with the repercussions and consequences...
For their actions TOWARD other men, that other men and mens laws dish out.
While others, receiving the Lords Conversion, AND continuing on to USE the Lords Internal power to MAKING THEIR natural BODY and MIND, subject to the Spirit of God within them....SHALL have fewer repercussion and consequences....FOR their actions TOWARD other men, that other men and mens laws are ready to dish out. (They shall be the receivers of ADDITIONAL Crowns, beyond the Crown of Life. They are a mans treasures stored up in Heaven, BECAUSE of going BEYOND their reasonable service of becoming Converted, and ACTUALLY Serve the Lord, while still on Earth.)
Sin is Against God....for disbelief...
Belief is ONE thing...Commitment is another thing.
Once that is resolved...the Lords Conversion is Once and forever.
It all hinges on a mans WILLINGNESS to Believe....and Become Converted....or not.
Many shall Believe, IN FACT, ALL SHALL BELIEVE....however...
Conversion, is what "happens" at different times, for different men, and for some men,
BEFORE the Tribulation, for some men DURING the Tribulation, for some men DURING the Millinnium, for some men there shall be no Conversion.
However there IS the factor of such man to remain living naturally on the earth....with men who are not Converted.
It is a Converted man Living among UnConverted men....that More learning by and through Scripture of Gods "Precepts" for a Converted man TO LEARN, in HOW TO approach, distance, get along with an UnConverted man, For the Purpose of LESSENING, AVOIDING...the Converted mans repercussion and consequences the UnConverted man and the law of man, CAN heap upon a Converted man.....
Which is the process, which LEADS TO the mans MIND becoming LIKE Christs, and Pleasing to God.
About the Commandments...there is a list.
Some were given By God.
Some were given By Jesus.
Some are FOR those IN Belief, but not yet Converted.
Some are FOR those IN Belief IN GOD, but who had not YET known Christ Jesus' Name.
Some are FOR those Who learned of God and of Christ Jesus' Name.
NONE of the Commandments can be Accomplished BY a man....WITHOUT Gods gift of FAITH given a man.
God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken
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bakerlite said . My question is, are Christians obligated to obey God?
Jesus sacrifice is the greatest gift ever and yet to obey is better than sacrifice so to obey is quite high on the scale.. but we all sin daily, always have and always will - simply because our walk in faith is not finished.
Therefore those who in their own minds eye are to sit on the top table with Jesus need to be aware that millions have not yet finished their race and the widows two mites are sometimes of more value than the clatter of gold being donated. Faith in others or in ourselves is so difficult to measure until its called upon
Jesus sacrifice is the greatest gift ever and yet to obey is better than sacrifice so to obey is quite high on the scale.. but we all sin daily, always have and always will - simply because our walk in faith is not finished.
Therefore those who in their own minds eye are to sit on the top table with Jesus need to be aware that millions have not yet finished their race and the widows two mites are sometimes of more value than the clatter of gold being donated. Faith in others or in ourselves is so difficult to measure until its called upon
Well, not quite.
First of all...set aside the LABEL "Christian".
Reason being;
There are "Christians" who believe, are following, but are NOT Converted and "Christians" who believe, are following, and ARE Converted.
I Believe SIN is AGAINST GOD...SIMPLY, disbelief, and without faith, and without having received Salvation.
ONCE it is accomplished that a man IS Saved, IS Converted...that man has become FREED FROM SIN. That man CAN NEVER AGAIN "COMMIT SIN", ie. NOT believe IN God IN Christ....That man IS KEPT from "the Commission of SIN AGAINST GOD", by the POWER OF GOD IN THAT MAN, (who BTW such man has Received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which IS Gods POWER, which IS called Christ).
So to say...a Converted man "IS STILL accountable for his sins"...sounds like you are saying...you are talking about...
COMMISION of SIN, being committed, AFTER a man IS Converted? Correct?
I say, because Scripture says, a Converted man, CAN "COMMIT" SIN NO MORE, after Conversion.
(Is ^ that man still held accountable for "PAST COMMITTED" SIN, of disbief in GOD?}
No, it is Forgiven, and Covered with His internal Light, and that darkness quenched, and remembered no more.
IS that man, still Accountable for His flesh body, born in Sin Against God? Yes. The Consequence was already revealed....THAT BODY SHALL physically Become Dead. God requires it.
So, further....CAN THE CONVERTED, "SIN AGAINST OTHER MEN?" (While still alive in their flesh, yet converted spiritually)? No.
WHY NOT? Or rather WHY COULD THEY?
Can a MAN FORGIVE another MAN of SIN?
Maybe, depends on WHAT SIN IS, and WHEN it is CALLED SIN, and to WHOM it applies, and WHEN it applies.
Meaning...ARE YOU a Hebrew? A Jew Under the Law? Were you EVER Under their Law or Agree to Abide BY their Laws?
Because many of their LAWS absolutely DID encompass BEHAVIORS "BETWEEN MEN".
And ANY violation of the LAW, was a SIN.
IF you WERE NOT UNDER their LAW, and a GENTILE....WHAT WAS YOUR SIN?
DISBELIEF IN God? DISBELIEF IN His WORD?
And thus ....
What SIN did God forgive you FOR?
Violating Hebrew/Jewish Laws?...Behaviors BETWEEN MEN?
or Disbelief in God and His Word?
The Jews WHO, Became Converted....Jesus, absolved them from BEING SUBJECT TO the "consequences" of the "Jewish Curse Laws", which is to SAY ... the "CURSE LAWS"...were the Laws of "Gods lawful punishments, consequences", for mens behaviors BETWEEN MEN.
Are there STILL men (even Converted men), who TRESPASS AGAINST Other men?
Yes....some with INTENT to trespass, some without INTENT to trespass.
And WHAT IS A TRESPASS? A SIN? No, a TRESPASS.
A Trespass IS ONE man, being the CAUSE of another mans....misery, heartache, loss, etc.
When ONE man....lies to, cheats, steals, deceives, etc. another man....He has CAUSED the other man a GRIEF....A TRESPASS.
Government officials, husbands, wives, children, teachers, neighbors, friends, strangers, family, etc......are all capable of DOING such things...INTENTIONALLY or UNINTENTIONALLY....and the result is the Same....One HAS Trespassed and An Other has been Trespassed Against.
Scripture teaches HOW a man IS to Deal with being ... either .... the ONE Trespassing or the ONE Trespassed Against.
A Converted man, HAS the ability to have DIRECT Communication with God, and His Word....which is TO HIS BENEFIT, to Learn HOW TO AVOID, and AMEND, Trespasses Against Other men and themselves.
An UN-Converted man, is still stumbling his way through Life, HOPING he is being pleasing enough to God, enduring to his life's end, that he will be saved. (or simply one on his own doing things "his way" without Consideration of God).
Point is; A Converted man, IS Forgiven, and NO MORE "COMMITS" SIN.
Point is; ANY man can Trespass Against another man...and a Converted man SHOULD be continuing in the Word of God, and Learning what God directs the man to DO ABOUT HIS own Trespasses, or when men Trespass Against the man.
God Bless,
Merry Christmas
Taken
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
And no, it is not a free license to sin as so many religious people put it, it is the freedom to have a life knowing you no longer have to worry about the consequences or proving your worth to God.
Besides as Pia once put it, we never had an excuse before why do we need one now, and the silliest thing of all, as a non believer no one worries about sin, than when they become christians, and shouldnt be worried, they spend most of there time in condemnation, unbelief and worrying...
Helen
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A Converted mans "reasonable service" is Qualified by Scripture itself...
Rom 12
- [1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
That HOWEVER, makes such a man WORTHY of receiving the Crown of Life....
Which all of a Sudden, what appeared so meager for a man to do....IS now Revealed...
What a Superb and HUGE Gift the Lord Bestows upon such a man for his decision to become Converted and Stand before the Lord God, IN their Converted self.
God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken
Helen
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By this logic, I have never one met a (what you would call) truly converted Christian, not in all the churches I've visited. I have met some wonderful people, who truly strive to be like Christ, whom have burning testimonies of Him, and truly have been transformed by Him. But none that do not ever commit sins against their fellow man and God. Each one at some point each lies, gets prideful, or otherwise falls short.
Even so...!
Yet our goal is or should be to overcome as Jesus overcame so that the Tree of Life will open to us. People do make it, but not because they say they repented in full that first time at the altar. They make it because they had the attitude of David instead of the attitude of Saul. God has made available to people today more than was available to people in the time of David so the limitation or lack thereof of Luke 12:48 apply.
People want to say I have crossed the line and I cannot step back behind it again. The truth is that while we may have crossed the line, we do not have to step back behind it again, but we certainly can. Someone should not want to step back behind that line even as Adam and Eve should not have wanted to disobey God. They did and so can we even when we have been consistently on His side. What an terrible choice to make, but they did it and we are not better than them. God is no respecter of persons. The opportunity to fail He gave them He has also given to us. If you never choose wrong, there is nothing to worry about... no matter what you believe about the line.
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Well no we don't make it to heaven because we have the right attitude or emotion, the cross isn't based on that it's based on belief
And what of that which is in our heart? Why is it that God looks there without regard to the proper outer doctrines being held or rituals performed? The doctrines themselves and the rituals usually, if not always, are types and shadows of the reality in which only God dwells... along with eventually any of us who move beyond types and shadows.
An attitude is a spirit. Are we to follow our own corrupted spirit or the Holy Spirit?
He looks at our heart because we're friends of God, in a relationship with God, not to lose salvation if we get angry on Monday
David got angry with the one who had taken the poor man's ewe lamb instead of a lamb from his own abundance. It turned out that he was angry with himself without knowing it. He was the culprit. But he did not suffer the consequences of death as the letter of the law prescribed for murder and adultery because God was looking beyond the superficial to what was in his heart.
He was a man after God's own heart. He was the apple of God's eye.
Saul, the king before him was guilty of crimes which in the eyes of men may seem lesser offenses, but God also looked at his heart and found him wanting. Saul paid the prescribed penalty.
God will look at each of us the same way. With the wrong heart, any perceived relationship with God is likely to be false, only a delusion. If you are really a friend of God you need not be concerned. That is between you and God. He has not told me about you one way or the other as that part is not my business. It is God's and yours.
Well, fortunately for believers in 2018, we're not living under the blood of goats and calves
Helen
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You already know what I am going to say here.
I can see clearly they DO lose their sonship..they do lose their " Good and faithful servant" But God clearly shows a level in heaven just as there already are ..Archangels, angels, cherubim's, seraphim's etc etc
There will also be a clear order in heaven.
THAT is what we are in Jeopardy of losing...
As David said in Roman's 4:6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.."
But you know that- 'from me' don't you.
No, we're not, but Luke 12:48 applies which means that since have received more than Saul or David received from God, more is not just expected but required of us. We must use what have been given in time, education, power, etc. to accomplish what we can. If we accomplish as a Saul we receive a Saul type reward, while if we accomplish as a David we receive a corresponding better reward. In such things, no one but God may make the final measurement yet unlike David who fully expected death we see people expecting a great reward when they have walked for God like Saul.
This may also be seen in the difference between the original brass serpent of healing and the Nehushtan which was only an idol. It looked to the carnal eye of men like the healing serpent but it was the idol of death.
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