OSAS Question

[Taken]

Again, Jesus says that your converted man "IN" Christ will be taken away by his Father, unless that man produces good fruit.

The "converted man" is not taken away.
"Rewards" he could have had, shall be taken away.

I believe that there are many (so called) converted men, that will find out that they are not.

"Converted"...applies "expressly", to those WHO "HEARTFULY" confess Belief...IN God AND Jesus the Christ Messiah.
THAT ^ expressly identifies A man...
BOTH...."WITH....God & Christ...AND "IN" Christ.

I do agree, SOME men "wrongly taught"...
ARE, "WITH" God, "WITH" Jesus....BUT NOT "IN" Christ.
THAT ^ hangs on the matter....of "IF" their "confession"....was "from the thoughts of their HEART....(as expressly required)....or "from the thoughts of their CARNAL MIND"...
(Which is expressly Scripturally Taught to NOT DO, and WHY).

Many are converted and doing a wonderful job for Jesus.

AGREE....and FOR every time, THEY Glorify God...A reward, "ie treasure", is stored up FOR THEM IN HEAVEN, to be given them, WHEN the Son of man Returns to Earth.

Producing "fruit", IS a man, Glorifying God.
Glorify God...with little "fruit"...receive "little" reward.
Glorify God...with increase "fruit"...receive "increase" reward.

FOR EXAMPLE....the malefactor hanging next to Jesus...(modern day expression...on ones death bed).
* JUST Before the malefactors DEATH...he calls on the Lord...expresses his heartful belief...and Instantly BeCOMES soul SAVED..and secured to be spirit quickened..and secured to be bodily risen in glory....(while doing what works, to produce Fruit to Glority God? Very minimal.)
* What treasures / rewards will he receive...for his fruits/works...of Glorifying God? All the treasures / rewards he "could have had"....IF he had made his calling and confession...LONG before his "death bed" circumstance?
The "numerous" treasures / rewards "he could have had"....are taken away, expired to receive, no longer available....
* HOWEVER....the GOOD NEWS IS:
....The ONE MOST IMPORTANT "REWARD"...
That malefactor WILL RECEIVE; "IS"...
The Reward, that is called...
The CROWN OF LIFE...
Which IS, absolution he is forgiven his sin Against God, his soul IS saved, his spirit IS quickened (after Jesus returned to Heaven) and his body shall be raised IN Glory, and he be alive forevermore and WITH the Lord God Almighty forevermore IN Gods Kingdom.

ANY man "WITH" the Lord God...(but NOT "IN" Christ)....WHO "by his own power" remains faithful TO the Lord God until his physical Death....SO ALSO SHALL his soul be saved, his spirit quickened....and his body shall wait, in the grave, until after the milillenial reign...and be raised up in glory THEN.

Again...converted ONLY applies to those with a "HEARTFUL" confession...who become "made "IN" Christ"....and thereafter...ARE for the remainer of their physical Life..."IN" Christ....and ARE FOREVER..."WITH" the Lord God..."KEPT" Forever, by Gods internal Power, IN THEM. (The MAJOR point of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You need to answer this question, do not try to slide past it.

If God chooses who will enter heaven, does God also choose who will enter hell?

Basic answer....YES.
Does that basic answer provide WHY or SPECIFIC Understanding? NO.

 

[theefaith]

The "converted man" is not taken away.
"Rewards" he could have had, shall be taken away.



"Converted"...applies "expressly", to those WHO "HEARTFULY" confess Belief...IN God AND Jesus the Christ Messiah.
THAT ^ expressly identifies A man...
BOTH...."WITH....God & Christ...AND "IN" Christ.

I do agree, SOME men "wrongly taught"...
ARE, "WITH" God, "WITH" Jesus....BUT NOT "IN" Christ.
THAT ^ hangs on the matter....of "IF" their "confession"....was "from the thoughts of their HEART....(as expressly required)....or "from the thoughts of their CARNAL MIND"...
(Which is expressly Scripturally Taught to NOT DO, and WHY).



AGREE....and FOR every time, THEY Glorify God...A reward, "ie treasure", is stored up FOR THEM IN HEAVEN, to be given them, WHEN the Son of man Returns to Earth.

Producing "fruit", IS a man, Glorifying God.
Glorify God...with little "fruit"...receive "little" reward.
Glorify God...with increase "fruit"...receive "increase" reward.

FOR EXAMPLE....the malefactor hanging next to Jesus...(modern day expression...on ones death bed).
* JUST Before the malefactors DEATH...he calls on the Lord...expresses his heartful belief...and Instantly BeCOMES soul SAVED..and secured to be spirit quickened..and secured to be bodily risen in glory....(while doing what works, to produce Fruit to Glority God? Very minimal.)
* What treasures / rewards will he receive...for his fruits/works...of Glorifying God? All the treasures / rewards he "could have had"....IF he had made his calling and confession...LONG before his "death bed" circumstance?
The "numerous" treasures / rewards "he could have had"....are taken away, expired to receive, no longer available....
* HOWEVER....the GOOD NEWS IS:
....The ONE MOST IMPORTANT "REWARD"...
That malefactor WILL RECEIVE; "IS"...
The Reward, that is called...
The CROWN OF LIFE...
Which IS, absolution he is forgiven his sin Against God, his soul IS saved, his spirit IS quickened (after Jesus returned to Heaven) and his body shall be raised IN Glory, and he be alive forevermore and WITH the Lord God Almighty forevermore IN Gods Kingdom.

ANY man "WITH" the Lord God...(but NOT "IN" Christ)....WHO "by his own power" remains faithful TO the Lord God until his physical Death....SO ALSO SHALL his soul be saved, his spirit quickened....and his body shall wait, in the grave, until after the milillenial reign...and be raised up in glory THEN.

Again...converted ONLY applies to those with a "HEARTFUL" confession...who become "made "IN" Christ"....and thereafter...ARE for the remainer of their physical Life..."IN" Christ....and ARE FOREVER..."WITH" the Lord God..."KEPT" Forever, by Gods internal Power, IN THEM. (The MAJOR point of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit).

Glory to God,
Taken

faith alone is condemned
And a believer is only a catechumen not a Christian
Faith and baptism makes a Christian
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

 

[Taken]

faith alone is condemned
And a believer is only a catechumen not a Christian
Faith and baptism makes a Christian
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Conversion MAKES a person WITH God, WITH Jesus, IN Christ....regardless of what "religious Titled name" he calls himself.

 

[theefaith]

Conversion MAKES a person WITH God, WITH Jesus, IN Christ....regardless of what "religious Titled name" he calls himself.

without the sacrament of baptism?

 

[Gregory]

only one savior Lk 2:10-11

only one savior - is true

Only one salvation Jn 1:16-17

Only one salvation. - In Johns day that was true. Today, that is not true. In John's day there was only 1 Christian church. Today there are hundreds of Christian churches and teaching a multiple of ways to salvation. It depends on which bible you use and which church you go to. I believe there is only one salvation, but it is hidden behind hundreds of false salvations. It has to do with the "keys". Remember the "keys"?

only one church jn 10:16

Only one church. That was true in Johns day, but there have been many schisms off of the true church that the true church is now hidden by all the false churches. IOW the true church is unrecognizable today. That is why I keep asking: which church holds the "keys to the kingdom of heaven"? If you can find one that even claims to hold the "keys" take a look at it.

Only one new covenant 1 cor 11:23-27

Only one new covenant - this is true. But again, this true covenant is hidden amongst the 200 false covenants. Remember the "keys".

The church is a divine institution and is eternal the spotless bride of Christ rev 21:2

You tell me which church today is spotless? Of the 200 Christian churches which one is the spotless one? When Christ receives his spotless church it will be after the resurrection and all people in the true church at that time will be spotless, but not now, we are sinners.

Holy mother church gal 4:26

So many false churches have split off of the Holy mother church that the Holy mother church is unrecognizable today. It is hidden in the middle of all the false churches. Tell me which church is the Holy mother church?

Teaching all truth without error Jn 16:13 matt 28:19

Which church do you know that teaches the doctrines of Jesus Christ without error? I can walk into a different church every Saturday or Sunday and within a few minutes I hear errors, or things that I believe are errors.
I believe when the apostles were still alive, there was error taught in some of the churches, however, the apostles were there to hold back the gushing waters of error. As soon as they died, I believe the errors were unabated and that is the reason today we have 200 churches. Remember the Galatians were scolded by Paul, right in the bible for leaving their first love, Jesus Christ and teaching false doctrine. So Paul was able to plug the dam and stop the flood of error at that time. But when he died, who stopped it then?
Always keep your eye on the "keys". Which church holds the "keys"?

 

[Taken]

without the sacrament of baptism?

"Without the sacrament of baptism"?
I said no such thing.
Nor do I know "WHAT YOUR Phrase" means TO YOU.

 

[Gregory]

Conversion MAKES a person WITH God, WITH Jesus, IN Christ....regardless of what "religious Titled name" he calls himself.

What does conversion consist of? IOW how do you know if a person is converted?

 

[Taken]

Gregory -
Agree.
There is NO "so called brick and mortar" True mother church.

The KEY is:
Jesus' risen body IS Christ's Church.
Every man WHO dwells "IN" Christ Jesus' risen body...IS A member of Christ Jesus' Church.

Eph 1: 22
[22]...the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Gregory]

Gregory -
Agree.
There is NO "so called brick and mortar" True mother church.

The KEY is:
Jesus' risen body IS Christ's Church.
Every man WHO dwells "IN" Christ Jesus' risen body...IS A member of Christ Jesus' Church.

Eph 1: 22
[22]...the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Glory to God,
Taken

Jesus did not believe this. He set up his church with 12 apostles and they taught in brick and mortar homes and eventually brick and mortar churches. The true church also had bishops, deacons, teachers, elders, priests, pastors, etc. There truly was one true church on the earth.

Yes, Jesus was the head of all things, and certainly his church. It is by revelation that he communicated with his apostles and other officers of the church to grow and edify and administer Jesus's true church. His body does filleth all in all, but his resurrected body was not the brick and mortar that the apostles used to teach his doctrines and teach the church all about Him. There is a little bit of poetic license when someone says: the church is his body. Yes it is his body, but his body of people that fill his brick and mortar churches.
Remember the little boy that fell out of a window of a brick and mortar church that Paul was speaking at? Yes there were real structures that the apostles used to teach.

But yes, every man who dwells in Christ Jesus is a member of Christ Jesus' true church. Dwelling in Christ Jesus' risen body again is poetic license, we certainly do not dwell in Jesus. He is in heaven, we are on earth. He sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in our body and commune with our personal spirit. That is true.

 

[Taken]

What does conversion consist of? IOW how do you know if a person is converted?

Conversion, IS: the Works of God...of:
Forgiveness of Sin Against God (disbelief).
Accepting a mans Bodily Life "given" Him.
Restoring a mans soul.
Giving a man a new heart (ie circumcision)
Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Gods Spirit entering the mans new Heart.
Giving a man Gods Seed in his new Heart.
Birth of a mans new spirit, from Gods Seed.
The Spirit of Truth, remaining in the mans new heart, FEEDING that mans new spirit, Gods Truth.
The Holy Spirits Presence with and in the man, IS Gods Supreme Power, that:
...justifies a man to be; sanctified; ie set apart from all other men who are not converted.
...justifies a man to be: Forever Sealed, unto God.
...Justifies a man to occupy Christ Jesus' risen body. Ie called 'IN' Christ. Also called "a member of Christ's Church".
...Justifies a man to be; Claimed, Redeemed, Risen Up in Glory, by ONLY the Lord God.
...Justifies the whole man to enter the Lords earthly Kingdom.
....Justifies the mans soul and spirit to enter Gods Kingdom...(per physical bodily death).
....Justifies the man, to be called a son of god.
...Justifies the man, to NOT be appointed to Wrath, sent down from Heaven, intended to cause great tribulation upon the Earth and it's occupants.
...Secures a man that Gods Power withIN the man WILL KEEP that man IN Christ and WITH the Lord God forever. Ie can NEVER AGAIN SIN (not believe) Against God.
...covers a mans sin; with His Light; that his forgiven sins are remembered no more.
...may have missed a few...of Gods Works...

Pertaining to A MAN.
There is obviously hearing, learning about, believing, receiving faith from God....continuing or denying or rejecting...
* AND the man who Heartfully Believes, WHO...calls on the Lord, makes his Heartful Confession...thereafter, receives Gods Works of Conversion once and forever.

KNOW unequivabily ... ?
We don't KNOW unequivabiltiy about others...only ourselves, or via testimony we choose to trust to believe of others, which also includes, "knowing" one "by" observing their "fruits/works of glorifying God".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[theefaith]

only one savior - is true


Only one salvation. - In Johns day that was true. Today, that is not true. In John's day there was only 1 Christian church. Today there are hundreds of Christian churches and teaching a multiple of ways to salvation. It depends on which bible you use and which church you go to. I believe there is only one salvation, but it is hidden behind hundreds of false salvations. It has to do with the "keys". Remember the "keys"?


Only one church. That was true in Johns day, but there have been many schisms off of the true church that the true church is now hidden by all the false churches. IOW the true church is unrecognizable today. That is why I keep asking: which church holds the "keys to the kingdom of heaven"? If you can find one that even claims to hold the "keys" take a look at it.


Only one new covenant - this is true. But again, this true covenant is hidden amongst the 200 false covenants. Remember the "keys".


You tell me which church today is spotless? Of the 200 Christian churches which one is the spotless one? When Christ receives his spotless church it will be after the resurrection and all people in the true church at that time will be spotless, but not now, we are sinners.


So many false churches have split off of the Holy mother church that the Holy mother church is unrecognizable today. It is hidden in the middle of all the false churches. Tell me which church is the Holy mother church?


Which church do you know that teaches the doctrines of Jesus Christ without error? I can walk into a different church every Saturday or Sunday and within a few minutes I hear errors, or things that I believe are errors.
I believe when the apostles were still alive, there was error taught in some of the churches, however, the apostles were there to hold back the gushing waters of error. As soon as they died, I believe the errors were unabated and that is the reason today we have 200 churches. Remember the Galatians were scolded by Paul, right in the bible for leaving their first love, Jesus Christ and teaching false doctrine. So Paul was able to plug the dam and stop the flood of error at that time. But when he died, who stopped it then?
Always keep your eye on the "keys". Which church holds the "keys"?

then there still is one true church all the rest are false churches or sects founded not by Christ Matt 16:18 but by men and have no possible means of salvation

 

[theefaith]

"Without the sacrament of baptism"?
I said no such thing.
Nor do I know "WHAT YOUR Phrase" means TO YOU.

Conversion must include baptism?
Repentance and faith?

 

[Taken]

Jesus did not believe this.

Really? Jesus did not believe, His Church IS within Him? Uh! Nah.

He set up his church with 12 apostles and they taught in brick and mortar homes and eventually brick and mortar churches.

God SENT Jesus into the world, Jesus ALSO SENT his disciples into the world.

John 20:
[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

John 17:
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The true church also had bishops, deacons, teachers, elders, priests, pastors, etc. There truly was one true church on the earth.

The ONE TRUE CHURCH IS the risen body of Christ Jesus....AS Scripture says, and you claim Jesus Denied....and I disagree with you.

Eph 1:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Yes, Jesus was the head of all things, and certainly his church. It is by revelation that he communicated with his apostles and other officers of the church to grow and edify and administer Jesus's true church. His body does filleth all in all, but his resurrected body was not the brick and mortar that the apostles used to teach his doctrines and teach the church all about Him. There is a little bit of poetic license when someone says: the church is his body. Yes it is his body, but his body of people that fill his brick and mortar churches.
Remember the little boy that fell out of a window of a brick and mortar church that Paul was speaking at? Yes there were real structures that the apostles used to teach.

There were real streets, fields, country sides, gardens, boats, Synagogs, Temple courts, kings courts, tents, houses, dwellings, prisons, meeting rooms, on and on....where Jesus Preached...and sent forth his disciples and apostles to preach LIKEWISE, whereever they were sent.

And yes, men began constructing buildings, calling them "a church", "an organized meeting place", with teachers, given an "identifier" of Rank, and "indicator" of THEIR knowledge...for ALL who wanted to Go, Hear, Learn....ABOUT God and His Christ Messiah.

But yes, every man who dwells in Christ Jesus is a member of Christ Jesus' true church.

OXYMOROM .... True church is a mortar building? True church a man who dwells in Christ?

Dwelling in Christ Jesus' risen body again is poetic license, we certainly do not dwell in Jesus.

Speech from a Carnal Mind...glossing over Spiritual Understanding.

He is in heaven, we are on earth. He sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in our body and commune with our personal spirit. That is true.

You waver.
Scripture itself identifies...Jesus' risen body...IS Christ's Church.
Christ's TRUE CHURCH is NOT made with mens hands.

Scripture itself identifies...Particular cities, having built buildings, called churches, building made by mens hands as a place FOR men to gather, TO Teach those who GO to Learn about God and His Christ Messiah.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Conversion must include baptism?
Repentance and faith?

The Works of the Lord Gods Conversion "does" include the Lord Gods Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Repentance is what a man does...not God.
Faith is a gift from God to men who Hear His word.

 

[theefaith]

Matthew 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[theefaith]

The Works of the Lord Gods Conversion "does" include the Lord Gods Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Repentance is what a man does...not God.
Faith is a gift from God to men who Hear His word.

So it’s not faith alone?

only faith and the ritual of baptism can make you a Christian

faith only is a believer or catechumen not a Christian

 

[Taken]

So it’s not faith alone?

Do you require something else other than faith to believe?

only faith and the ritual of baptism can make you a Christian

Faith is a gift from God.
Baptism is a works of God.
Christian is not exclusive to Baptized men.
People, not baptized, following Gods Word can and do often, call themselves a Christian.

faith only is a believer or catechumen not a Christian

You have your funky word, irrelevant to me.
Scripture simply teaches ...

God is WITH people hearing and believing His Word...and remains WITH that person "as long as the man continues, endures, believing".

The Spirit of God is WITH and IN a person who is Baptized with the Spirit of God "and remains with that person" FOREVER. Ie...where OSAS applies.