OSAS Question

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Amazed@grace

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Jesus died to establish a new Covenant of Priest and Sacrifice that never stops interceding for the person who believes in it (unlike the old covenant of priest and sacrifice that did stop interceding). That's why we're exhorted to keep believing in it.....

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. Hebrews 4:14
See, the writer wouldn't say this if you can never lose the ministry of Jesus the high priest. He says this because you need to keep believing in the ministry of Christ that never ends. See, Christ is what is eternal and everlasting. Christ's ministry and sacrifice is what is eternal, not your possession of it......unless you continue to believe to the very end. Then you will possess it for eternity. The book of Hebrews is what opened up my eyes to the error of Osas thinking.
Then you didn't read and understand it properly. Because Paul's letter to the Ephesians 1:13-14 sustains irrevocable eternal salvation. And after Peter proved it by example.

We were given the seal of the holy spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.
God is not a man that he should lie.

You choose to disbelieve in eternal security that is God's gift, and is guaranteed by his holy spirit that seals us eternally.

You ignore how the parable of the prodigal son sustains irrevocable salvation, as does Peter's example, denying Jesus three times and still saved by Christ.

There is nothing anyone can say to change your mind when the truth does not secure your trust in the seal.
You stopped believing in eternal irrevocable security through Christ and now disbelieve.

When God knew you were worthy of his sacrifice and seal, and you deny it is eternal and irrevocable, I hope you are in that story the prodigal son. And not his brother instead.
 

Amazed@grace

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Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

4102. pistis ►
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
(Continues)
 

Amazed@grace

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Humble Service in the Body of Christ
3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one of you not to think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but to think with sober discernment, as God has distributed to each of you[f] a measure of faith.[g]
[g]Romans 12:3 tn Or “to each as God has distributed a measure of faith.”

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 12 - New English Translation
 

Curtis

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Then paul taught a salvation of works, a salvation of if you do good enough you may just in the end be saved, he taught salvation based on our righteousness not Gods, he taught conditional life not eternal.

sorry my friend, paul never taught this, he taught to be absent was to be present he taught the eternal seal of the spirit, he taught eternal life, he taught that we recieved already every blessing under heaven as an inheritance which will never fade away.

you taking a few passages which make paul appear to,say something he did not does not change that

That’s not the least bit true.

To be saved requires faith and repentance, turning away from sin.

Once saved one must persevere in faith and turning away from sin.

If anyone stops believing, and Jesus said some do, or goes back to a lifestyle of sinning, they do not remain in the covenant, or in Christ.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I include the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The word IF makes it a conditional statement.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit.


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
That’s why Paul wrote

That’s just a small sample of Paul refuting OSAS instead of affirming it.
 
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Curtis

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Then paul taught a salvation of works, a salvation of if you do good enough you may just in the end be saved, he taught salvation based on our righteousness not Gods, he taught conditional life not eternal.

sorry my friend, paul never taught this, he taught to be absent was to be present he taught the eternal seal of the spirit, he taught eternal life, he taught that we recieved already every blessing under heaven as an inheritance which will never fade away.

you taking a few passages which make paul appear to,say something he did not does not change that

Do yourself a favor and actually read the Bible, pay close attention to all of Paul’s warnings to the saints to BE NOT DECEIVED, or LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU, about the consequences of a believer committing works of the flesh, and committing sins as a lifestyle.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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...that is God's gift, and is guaranteed by his holy spirit that seals us eternally.
Yes, the Holy Spirit seals you forever. As long as you keep believing. The point is you won't wake up one day in your believing and the seal of God will be absent from you because of some failure or deficiency on Jesus' part. That's what was wrong with the first covenant. The priest and the sacrifice were deficient and didn't last. But in this New Covenant the High Priest and the Sacrifice never end and are never deficient, and so it, and it's effect, are eternal, not your possession of it—that is conditioned on your continued believing.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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What you say is true and that is certainly the point Jesus made with his vine metaphor. Paul, however, is making a different point with his Olive Tree metaphor.

Bear in mind, in this section of Romans Paul is asking, then answering a series of rhetorical questions. So lets look at a couple of verses.

Consider Romans 11:11
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?

Then Romans 1116
If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

As we are trying to figure out what Paul means here, we should keep his original question in mind. In other words, when we finally come to the correct interpretation of Romans 11:16, our understanding will be able to answer the question he posed in Romans 11:11. How does verse 16 support the thesis question in verse 11? In other words, though Israel stumbles, as David suggests, the question is whether or not Israel fell to her destruction when she stumbled. Did she stumble so as to fall? Paul says no. And he will explain why? And somehow, verse 16 and following explains it.

The idea that Christ is the tree and God is the root, while true in some sense, seems out of place in Paul's argument here in Romans 11. How does THAT truth answer the question as to why Israel didn't fall to her destruction?

See what I'm saying? The true interpretation of the Olive Tree metaphor needs to address the question Paul raised. That's how I treat my own interpretations. Does my interpretation make sense of the question? If not, I have more work to do.
It makes sense, except that you have to explain how that relates to the gentiles place in the tree. Israel is spoken of as a single entity, while the gentiles are addressed on an individual basis. And that's where the potential for confusion and misunderstanding comes in.

I don't disagree that Israel in Romans 11 is the sum total of Israel—the nation of Israel. And that the promises made to the Patriarchs on behalf of their descendants will never be revoked from the nation as a whole. The key here being, different Israeli branches are grafted back in where Israeli branches were broken off. And so there is nothing irrevocable at all about the promises of God to those individual branches that were previously broken off because of unbelief. The gift and calling were indeed revoked from them personally! They will never walk in what they could have walked in while they were alive in the nation of Israel. But the gift and calling have not been revoked from the nation as a whole. Future Israelis will indeed walk in the gift and calling of God despite the fact that so many did not. Paul uses himself as proof of that. Now, how do we properly transfer these truths about the nation of Israel over to the individual gentile believer Paul speaks about? That's what we have to do properly.
 

Eternally Grateful

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That’s not the least bit true.

To be saved requires faith and repentance, turning away from sin.

Once saved one must persevere in faith and turning away from sin.

If anyone stops believing, and Jesus said some do, or goes back to a lifestyle of sinning, they do not remain in the covenant, or in Christ.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I include the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The word IF makes it a conditional statement.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit.


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
That’s why Paul wrote

That’s just a small sample of Paul refuting OSAS instead of affirming it.
This is not true, if this was true we would be under law not under grace

repentance leads to faith, faith causes works, but no one meets Gods standard, you may think you are righteous, but if you stood before God today you would fall on your knees knowing how sinful you were. One can not persevere enough, that would require perfection and no one has achieved that now will we until death,

you issue is you do not know the standard, you claim if one backslides into sin, but you can’t tell us how much sin is to much because you do not know, you go on the slippery slope like many of the worlds religions do, of having to live up to some invisible standard so you can at lease hope you get to heaven

well God gave you that standard, it’s called the law. And he said whoever breaks the least of the commands is guilty, as James said you can keep the whole law and stumble in just one area, and your guilty, your done, you are worthy of death

all the passages you give are descriptive passages, not prescriptive, those born of God do walk after the spirit. Not perfectly, paul made it clear in Romans 7 how hard that is, that’s why we are to keep our minds set on the things of the spirit, but who is perfect at that?
I never heard of osas until I came to a christian chatroom, I think you all made that term up to make it easier to fight instead of just sticking to the word, the mere truth is you are doing what Paul warned about. Begging in the spirit and trying to perfect it in the flesh (by your own power). Read that and look at what Paul called people who do that

John said a child of God can not live in sin because he has been born of God whoever lives in sin has never seen God, paul said he has perfected forever those who are in the process of being sanctified. He also said he who began a good work will complete it until the day of Christ.

I trust God to fulfill his promise, why don’t you?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Do yourself a favor and actually read the Bible, pay close attention to all of Paul’s warnings to the saints to BE NOT DECEIVED, or LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU, about the consequences of a believer committing works of the flesh, and committing sins as a lifestyle.
Do yourself amd read the Bible, pay close attention to the security given all believes by Jesus (eternal life, never die, never hunger or thirst, not condemned, the River of living waters flowing to eternal life

by Paul. Eternal life, justified freely, every blessing under heaven, the seal or pledge of the spirit, to be absent is to be present.

John. Again eternal life, which we can know we have, and by this knowledge continue to believe

stop trying to save yourself you will fail, as everyone who tried to do that before you
 

CadyandZoe

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It makes sense, except that you have to explain how that relates to the gentiles place in the tree. Israel is spoken of as a single entity, while the gentiles are addressed on an individual basis. And that's where the potential for confusion and misunderstanding comes in.

I don't disagree that Israel in Romans 11 is the sum total of Israel—the nation of Israel. And that the promises made to the Patriarchs on behalf of their descendants will never be revoked from the nation as a whole. The key here being, different Israeli branches are grafted back in where Israeli branches were broken off. And so there is nothing irrevocable at all about the promises of God to those individual branches that were previously broken off because of unbelief. The gift and calling were indeed revoked from them personally! They will never walk in what they could have walked in while they were alive in the nation of Israel. But the gift and calling have not been revoked from the nation as a whole. Future Israelis will indeed walk in the gift and calling of God despite the fact that so many did not. Paul uses himself as proof of that. Now, how do we properly transfer these truths about the nation of Israel over to the individual gentile believer Paul speaks about? That's what we have to do properly.
To me, the olive tree metaphor is difficult to understand. Sometimes I think I get it, while at other times the concept slips away. So, maybe this time I should work backwards from Paul's conclusion and retrace his steps to see how he got there. Right? (smile) (I'm about to ramble on, putting my thoughts down for my own sake, not trying to convince you of anything. Feel free to follow along.)

What Paul is attempting to say is this. God made a promise concerning a future generation of Israel, that the entire nation would be considered holy and that he would bless them both materially and with eternal life. (Moses anticipates this future generation in Deuteronomy 29:22 and following.) Paul argues that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness* of the Gentiles has come in. But eventually "all Israel" shall be saved just as Moses predicted. Remember, Paul argues that God will spiritually bless and grant eternal life to all those whom he has chosen. Romans 11:7 In light of this, the question remains, who are the "chosen"? And didn't God chose Israel?

Paul argues that yes, in one sense, Israel itself is the chosen of God. But in another sense, the chosen of God are those individuals living in Israel whom God considers "holy". With regard to the Gentile nations, none of these other nations are God's chosen. However, for a time, God declared Gentiles to be "clean". Acts 10:15 In other words, God is now offering the Gentiles the same promise he made to the nation of Israel. And now, some among the Gentiles are considered "holy", because they are believers in Jesus Christ. But at some point in our future, the last remaining chosen Gentile will come to saving faith and confess Jesus as Lord. Thus ends the time of the Gentiles. Nonetheless, we conclude that even those among the Gentiles who came to saving faith were first "chosen" of God.

I can only conclude that the Olive Tree represents "the holy people whom God has chosen." God declared Israel to be his chosen people, but as Paul concluded, God wasn't referring to the Israel of today; he was referring to the Israel of tomorrow. THAT Israel is his holy people. The idea being expressed by branches being cut off the tree is roughly equivalent to the picture of a partial hardening. The promise concerns the nation of Israel, but over time, there has always remained those living in Israel who didn't love God, didn't fear God, and didn't obey God. These are not part of the "plaroma" the fullness. In the mean time, God has granted the Gentiles access to the promise and those among the Gentiles whom God has chosen, will be saved. But eventually, the Gentiles will grow arrogant and no longer love God, fear God and obey his gospel.

Anyway, if you have gotten this far, thanks for listening. As you can see, I need to do more work.
_________
*Note: Paul has coined the term "plaroma:fullness" to indicate the sum total of all believers throughout time. Thus, the "fulness" of the Gentiles would be the sum total of all Gentile believers who ever lived.
 

kcnalp

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No.

But the belief that saves us is a one time act of faith. A believer can go through doubt and even no longer believe Jesus died for them. If they were trule born again, they are saved! They should and will return from that valley of death, for that is Gods Promise!

They may not look saved during the time of backsliding, but God sees the inside while we can only see the outside asnd guess what is inside. We cannot make that judgment as to their eternal condition, but Scripture does tell us, that when one is saved, they are a new creature and endowed with all the benefits I listed, and they are eternal.

As jesus said, no man may pluck a person out of His hands, and that means we cannot pluck ourselves (unless of course your name is "NO MAN" LOL)

He said He will NEVER leave us or forsake us! Never means never every time!
Means? So God won't let you sin?
 

kcnalp

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Nooo, context has everything to do with having respect for Exegesis and God's word.:)
Do you ever quote a single verse?
The common tactic for those who do not approve what God has to say is to argue that God lied when he said it
How ironic!

Romans 1:7-8 (NKJV)
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 11:22 (NKJV)
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise YOU also will be cut off.


Clearly referring to Christians! Are you a Christian? If so, it is referring to YOU!
 
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TheslightestID

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1 John 2
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued
with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us

Another age old, tricky abuse of scripture.

Context is everything there, and and if one will actually read all that scripture, they will see they are talking about a certian group of people, and not everyone.

A great example of deceiptful cherry picking, and leaving out the context in order to cause the scripture to say something that it does not say.
 

GRACE ambassador

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Ronald Nolette said:
The belief that saves us is a ONE-TIME act of faith.
TheslightestID said:
I'm very sorry you have been deceived, please don't
teach others to head off in the wrong direction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Praise The LORD For HIS WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Instead of "doctrines of church fathers, Lutheranism,
Calvinism, etc, etc, etc." Amen?:

Yes, "The RIGHT Direction" = God's Eternal Salvation Is By "GRACE
Through {ONE-Time} faith" In The Correct Gospel FOR Today!:


God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery

And, Then The INDWELLING Holy Spirit LEADS "students who
Diligently study"
to HIS Eternal Assurance! {aka osas...}:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance


Be Blessed!
 

Eternally Grateful

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Another age old, tricky abuse of scripture.

Context is everything there, and and if one will actually read all that scripture, they will see they are talking about a certian group of people, and not everyone.

A great example of deceiptful cherry picking, and leaving out the context in order to cause the scripture to say something that it does not say.
Yep. A group If people. People who where part of the church and left in unbelief
I am sorry you can not handle that fact. But we have had them since the church started. I know a few myself. Scripture still Fits even today
 

Ronald Nolette

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I'm very sorry you have been deceived, please don't teach others to head off in th e wrong direction.

Well I have been teaching OSAS for over 35 years to thousands of people. I only teach bible truth about salvation, not the demon ic lie that Jesus didn't die for all your sins or for all of someones sins, so that they have to pay the price they trusted Christ to pay.

To quote the HULK from the Avengers, your god is a "puny god". If you believe that Jesus is not capable to save those He made children of God, or loses patience or will leave or forsake them, then the bible needs to be tossed out andwe are left with nothing to hold to for faith.