OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Gadgetere]

Let's review the verses:
James5:19-20 -- return from "falling-away-from-the-truth", and sins re-covered
1Tim4:1 -- demons can deceive many away from the faith
Heb4:11 -- do not imitate Israel's disobedience & unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest
2Cor11:3 -- just like Eve was deceived by satan, we can be led astray from Jesus

Lk15:11-32 the Prodigal abandoned his father and was "dead", until he returned
Heb3:12-14 -- brethren can be hardened by sin to falling away from God!
2Pet3:17 -- do not be deceived and fall from your own steadfastness
2Jn1:7-9 -- guard against deceivers, if you go too far and leave the teachings you don't have Jesus!
1Jn2:26-28 -- guard against deceivers, abide in Him to not shrink-in-shame at His return
Col2:6-8 -- walk in Jesus, guard your faith; do not be deceived away from Christ

Okay --- WHICH of those is not "osnas"?

All your assumptions are false, here.

Meaning no offense (don'tchyha' just HATE a post that opens with words like that???) -- it's really easy to brush off cited verses with a wave of the hand -- but what is the substance of that rejection?

1Tim4:1 -- how can anyone fall away from faith he's never had? Why does verse 16 warn us to take care of ourselves and abide in His teachings (as we do we will save ourselves)? Isn't there a consequence in Paul's words?

2Pet3:17 -- how does that not warn us not to be deceived away from Jesus? Especially when the rest of the letter says things like, (ch1) "Therefore (against the man who WAS PURIFIED/SAVED, but now he LACKS the godly qualities that are not optional!), be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast; as long as these qualities are yours you will not stumble/ptaio/become-wretched, in THIS way the entrance to God's kingsom will BE provided to you"! And chapter 2 warns about the false prophets and false teachers (who NEVER cease from sin, they are worthless dark storm mists), but the false entice the truly-escaped back INTO defilements; better (for the true!) to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than after HAVING KNOWN IT, to have turned away from the holy commandment! How in the world can we paint all these words as "Oh don't worry, a truly saved person can not REALLY turn back into defilements and become lost again, it's not REALLY worse than before they KNEW the way of righteousness, they did NOT REALLY KNOW the way so they did NOT REALLY turn away from anything (they never ceased being dogs and pigs -- although dogs and pigs never want to leave vomit and mire these people DID desire to be clean and actually "escaped defilements" and without Jesus but they did NOT REALLY ever CEASE being dogs and pigs so somehow their end was worse than first-state-dogs-pigs-in-vomit-mire, worse than second-state-dogs-pigs-trying-to-be-CLEAN-and-ESCAPED-vomit-mire, now their last-state-dogs-pigs-in-vomit-mire-again is worse! Somehow!"

Not meaning any insult -- how do you find that credible?

It defies belief that a mighty chapter such as Romans 8 supposedly teaches that faith in the wondrous work of Christ still is not supposedly enough to assure a believer of salvation and eternal security.

You believe that words from Rm8:38-39 (nothing will separate us from God's love which is in Jesus), overrides verses like Rom8:13 "if you (brethren!) are living according to the flesh you must die" (apothnesko, 5. of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell).

Romans8:29-35 is one of the "Primary Verses Thought to Promote Predestined-Election" (Calvinism, Reformed Theology); to really expose the intent, just like disassembling a building the other 57+ verses have to be removed first to expose the four foundation passages. You remember, 57+ verses like 1Cor2:14, RT insists "Natural men cannot understand the Gospel, so their hearts have to be opened FIRST (sovereignly, monergistically), he gets the things before and in order to believe and be saved". But verse 12 openly states we have to receive the Holy Spirit first (and no unsaved person does that!) in order to get the things.

RT: "We have to get the things before and in order to believe and be saved
Paul in 1Cor2:12 "we have to be saved through Jesus, receive the Spirit before and in order to get the things"

The second was 2Cor4:3-4, satan blinds them lest they see-with-eyes hear-with-ears believe-with-hearts and be saved.

RT "God has to monergistically unveil their eyes and hearts BEFORE they CAN turn to Him and be saved
Paul in 2Cor3:16 "when a man turns to the Lord, (then!) the veil over his eyes is removed!"

Verse by verse, all 57 verses are proven with equal veracity NOT to promote Reformed Theology. Likewise, all verses thought to promote the other two views of OSAS, are proven not to.

There is frankly no point in continuing this discussion.

I've been posting on message boards for the better part of 25 years; I know how people think, and how they understand verses. EVERY person who is OSAS, reaches this point, and finds some reason to "walk away" (shaking the dust from their feet). They don't actually engage cited verses, because frankly they can't; you and I looked at two of the 57 Reformed-Theology Secondaries just two paragraphs back -- is the solid exegesis (with verses 1Cor2:12, and 2Cor3:16) deniable? Negotiable? Explainable? No. It's solid, not "mere opinion", we've shown what Paul actually said and meant. But proponents have invested considerable "repute" (it is often embarrassing to change positions), so every one in time just walks away (and in a few days, posts the same verses as if nothing has been said). The best we can hope and pray for is that cited Scriptures will gnaw at the back of their consciousnesses, that perhaps in the wee hours of the night it will begin to occur that "the verses really are solid and really do oppose 'unfallible salvation' ". Or that others passing through will see the posts, some WILL look up the verses, and God will be honored by people studying His inspired Scriptures (2Tim3:16).

Let's review the verses:
Heb4:11 -- do not imitate Israel's disobedience & unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest
Heb3:12-14 -- brethren can be hardened by sin to falling away from God!

To keep this post from getting any longer I'm going to make another post, addressing the entire letter of Hebrews.

I appreciate your thoughts, Farouk, and hope you will continue to consider the cited verses....

 

[Gadgetere]

All your assumptions are false, here.

There are so many "OSNAS" (once saved, not necessarily always saved) passages --- previous post I cited two from Hebrews:

Let's review the verses:
Heb4:11 -- do not imitate Israel's disobedience & unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest
Heb3:12-14 -- brethren can be hardened by sin to falling away from God!

Let's look at the entire letter of Hebrews? Starting with chapter 2:

2:1-3"We must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it; ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"

3:1 "Therefore holy brethren, metochos-partners in a heavenly calling..."
3:8 "Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me (in the wilderness)"

3:12 "Take care, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God
3:13 "But encourage one another ...lest any one OF YOU be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin
3:14 "For we are metochos-partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

3:17-19 "Those in the wilderness were disobedient; we see they were not able to enter their rest because of unbelief"
4:11 "Therefore let us be diligent to enter (God's) rest, lest anyone FALL through following the same example of disobedience."
4:1 "Let us fear, lest, while a promise remains of entering God's rest, any of you should seem to have come short of it"

5:11-14 (you should be mature, on solid food, but you are still babes needing milk)
6:1-3 "therefore (let's not spend all our time preaching repentance to those who don't want to)
6:4-5 "for in the case of those who TASTED (salvation -- same word "geuomai" as 2:9 "Jesus tasted death"), were made metochos-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit
6:6 "and FALLING AWAY (aorist-active-participle, fact!) it is adunatos/unable/powerless to restore them to repentance BECAUSE (or while!) they crucify Christ to themselves anew (by constant willful sin!), and hold Him to shame (contempt His sacrifice!)

6:7 "ONE field is tilled -- if it yields good fruit is is blessed..."
6:8 "but if it yields thorns it is cursed and ...burned"
6:11 "we desire each one of you to show the same diligence SO AS to realize the full assurance of hope until the end..."
6:12 "SO THAT you will not be sluggish BUT imitate those WHO by faith and patience inherit the Promises"

10:19-25 "Therefore BRETHREN, since we have confidence to enter the holy place ...let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith ...let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering...

10:26-29 "For if WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire... how much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled Jesus, scorned the blood that (once) sanctified him and has insulted the Spirit?

10:35 "therefore do not throw away your confidence!" (our confidence is Jesus! Heb10:19)

12:2 "Let us lay aside the sin which so easily entangles us and run with endurance the race"

12:7 "IF we endure God's discipline, then He treats us as sons"
12:8 "But if we ARE WITHOUT (present tense!) His discipline, of which all HAVE BECOME metochos-partners (past tense!), then we are not sons but are illegitimate (present tense!)
12:9 "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?
12:25 "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

12:15 "See that no one comes short of the grace of God"

13:9 "Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings..."

It defies belief that a mighty chapter such as Romans 8 supposedly teaches that faith in the wondrous work of Christ still is not supposedly enough to assure a believer of salvation and eternal security.

All right, may we hear how Rom8 teaches that faith is Christ's work and not ours (brushing away 1Pet1:9 "receive as the OUTCOME OF YOUR FAITH salvation", Jude 20-21 "building YOURSELVES in faith KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love" and others) --- allowing us to brush away the entire letter of Hebrews?

How does it not really say that salvation requires diligence from us, to abide in Jesus and His gift of grace?

There is frankly no point in continuing this discussion.

Before you discontinue -- will you interact with all of Hebrews, and the other cited verses?

Can you? Can anyone else of OSAS persuasion?

 

[Truman]

I am saved because God chose to save me. In a nutshell. Don't waste your breath...I won't listen.

 

[Gadgetere]

<<<Why wasn't he speaking of "individual salvation"?>>>

Because he was talking about Israel as a nation, as the cultivated olive tree.

He says "branch-ES", plural; so if it's "as-a-nation", there would have to be several nationS, wouldn't there? Suppose that's what Paul meant -- a NATION can be cut off but not INDIVIDUALS. How would that work? Can a nation be cut off unless the members OF that nation cease believing? Or do they keep believing but their KIDS, never START believing?

How would that work?

And he is also talking about the Gentiles as a people, as the wild olive tree. By the illustration with the olive tree, Paul was saying that Gentile salvation really depends on Israel's covenant relationship with God. However, one must not forget that this is all in the plan of God concerning the Gentiles, that it was always God's purpose to bless Gentiles (Gen. 12:1-3). Apparently, something that involves a people would be difficult, if not impossible, to explain in individual terms.

Some of the natural branches (plural) were broken off, and you a wild olive (single). Do not be arrogant, but fear; for if God did not spare them NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU.

How is that not a severe warning to the "wild olive (branch) that was grafted in"?

Would you be willing to respond to my previous post, where we went through the entire letter of Hebrews? How is Rom11:18-23 not saying exactly the same thing as Heb12:7-8, accepting God's discipline enrolls us as His adopted children, but if we cease submitting to His discipline then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate?

One just has to read to see that Paul was talking about Israel, as a people, a nation, and not as individuals, in there.

Okay, how does that work? How can a NATION get "cut off for unbelief" (ignoring "branches" plural), unless the members of that nation get cut off for unbelief? Why is the wild branch warned to fear against unbelief? Why can the natural branches (more than one nation?) be grafted in again, unless individuals in that nation do not continue in unbelief?

(Why are we warned in Heb4 not to "imitate Israel's disobedience and unbelief", so as to not enter God's eternal rest?)

Many seems to forget while reading that part in Romans 11, that those of Israel who we see as coming to Jesus, are of the remnant that Paul speaks about in verse 5, saved by God according to the election of grace. They should not be mistaken as those of blinded/hardened Israel; that they are being grafted back in. No. For it will not be until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, that all Israel be saved. That the time of the fullness of the has has come, we will see Israel as a people, to have come to Jesus .

I look forward to your continuing thoughts. May our words only draw us closer to God (and each other in brotherly love), and whoever passes through and reads what we write...

 

[Gadgetere]

I am saved because God chose to save me. In a nutshell. Don't waste your breath...I won't listen.

Truman, "all Scripture is inspired by God" (2Tim3:16). We take that to include the New Testament, words written by the Apostles, often including Jesus' words.

If someone cites some of those "God-inspired-verses" to us, but we refuse those very verses...

WHO ARE WE REALLY REFUSING?

 

[Truman]

Truman, "all Scripture is inspired by God" (2Tim3:16). We take that to include the New Testament, words written by the Apostles, often including Jesus' words.

If someone cites some of those "God-inspired-verses" to us, but we refuse those very verses...

WHO ARE WE REALLY REFUSING?

You're wasting it...

 

[Gadgetere]

It is. While you are right in pointing out the Greek word “adunatos” as to mean powerless, a great majority of the translations, if not all, got the message right. For what

<<<What is the cause of the powerlessness-to-restore-them-to-repentance? Willful sin.>>>

I think this is one where misunderstanding of the passage comes from. Firstly, the question you posed is as if the powerlessness is not on the person, but on another. If that were what the passage is saying, who then is powerless to restore/renew them to repentance? But what the passage says is that it is impossible for the person to come to repentance, that is, to change his mind yet again, back to believe in Christ Jesus. He does not have the power to do that.

No, that doesn't fit -- King James says "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!" Consider what you understand vs what I understand:

Tong: The unrepentant person is powerless to turn back, he is "unredeemable"
Gadget:He who falls, KNOWS salvation, scorns the blood, tramples Jesus -- it's his WILLFUL SIN that's the problem, by indifferent sin it is as if Jesus would have to die over and over!

Beneath both of those are the words (which you repeated), "restore/renew". Clearly they WERE repentant (unsaved people just never are!), but now they are "jaded". Please see Rev2, "repent and do the deeds you did at first else I will remove your lampstand", and Rev3 "you are neither hot nor cold but lukewarm, I will vomit you from My mouth!"

One cannot be restored to a place he never was before, Tong.

You say that the cause as to why he cannot be restored them again to repentance, is willful sin. In other words you are pointing to one’s will or one’s power, as the power behind that causes him to be powerless to restored again to repentance? That by itself sounds absurd.

It's not "what I'm saying" -- we struggle between us to expose what the AUTHOR said and meant. I look forward to your thoughts on the previous post on "all of Hebrews".

Even if that we take that to make some sense, such power would fall in what Paul said in Romans 8:38-39, which is as follows “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Again, nothing will separate us from His love -- even if we perish, He still loves us and grieves over losing us.

Jude20-21 (don't remember which chapter), "Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love" What happens if we don't keep ourselves in His love?

"chorizo" -- separate/divide/part/put-asunder, similar to "harpazo" force in Jn10:26-28.

Faith-to-enter is our voluntary choice (Jn10:9); how do we not have the same choice tomorrow, and the next day?

Besides, as to why it is impossible for him to be restored back is expressed in Hebrews 6:6 as follows “since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,”.

Why would it be "as if they are crucifying Jesus over again"?

Does not take away the fact, that a situation where one falls away, renders the one as forever lost because as it is impossible for one to be renewed back to repentance, for the reason given in the end part of verse 6. And this, if at all, it could happen, renders Jesus Christ to have not fulfilled the will of the Father concerning those whom He had given to the Son to raise up in the last day unto eternal life.

It's all about why they are in unrepentance. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts17:26-31) --- is repentance a real-estate in which we have to be diligent to walk, or not?

(Hint -- 1Jn1:7-9)

Of course, what matters is what scriptures say. And we both are here trying to tell each other what, in our understanding is what scriptures say. Sadly we differ. And so we reason.

And that's why we strive for "Scripture-interprets-Scripture", that we connect enough passages so the answer is consistent.

<<<the writer clearly said it was their willful sinfulness that's the problem.>>>

Nope. But yes, that is what you say.

Why do you think NASB footnotes it "While"?

<<<You really think "enlightened", "tasted good word of God and powers of age to come" (exactly the same as "Jesus geuomai-tasted death Heb2:9), "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit", are "never-truly/actually-saved"?>>>

Look at Israel. Were they not enlightened when God have shown to them who He is? Have they not shared tasted the good word of God? Of course they did. However, are they all true believers?

The "clincher", is "metochos-partakers/partners of the Holy Spirit". The word is saved in 3:1, 3:14, and 12:8; how can it be "not-saved" in the fourth incarnation? The Spirit does not partner with unsaved.

<<<The writer labors extensively to expose them as WERE saved.>>>

Does the writer know their heart? The writer believes (by presumption) they all are. However, that does not mean that they all actually are.

Please read all of Hebrews, previous post -- if the writer believed in OSAS, then who are all the warnings written to?

The very reason, as I gather, why he writes and speak to them in such manner, is exactly because he sees not in them what is expected of a true believer in God and in Jesus Christ, in the gospel that had been preached to them by the apostles. For if that were not so, he would find no reason to write to them these things.

But if it's "forever impossible to turn them to repentance", the writer is pretty daft to pen all of these words -- isn't he?

 

[Gadgetere]

Good post....I have posted these things before.
And so that you know this topic has had like around 15,000 posts in different threads over the last year.

Did you see....2Cor?.....2Cor11:3????

Yes -- we are at the same risk of deception-away-from-Jesus by the devil, as Eve experienced in the Garden. How could those words not mean what they say?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."​

But that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many that say exactly the same. All of James, all of 2Peter, all of Galatians (which blatantly says we-who-are-KNOWN-by-God, begun in the Spirit running well and obeying the truth, can become severed from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE --- there is not enough ink for all of the "NOT REALLY" stamps to work!). And I just made a post running through all of Hebrews, clearly the worst letter for OSAS.

But OSAS people will post for awhile, then say something like, "I'm through with your twisting and re-interpretations; I will shake the dust from my feet, have fun with your misinformation". That would be a lot more credible if they would point out exactly where the verses were being "misrepresented" or "twisted".

But there is one Savior, and we ain't Him. We post and pray that our words honor Him Whom we claim to serve, unafraid to learn ("you who teach others, will you not teach yourselves?") -- to always embody speaking the truth in LOVE. That every person here will be a brother or sister before Jesus forever -- for each brother who joins us is our treasure we can take with us. And possibly we pray with all our hearts that no one will be surprised to see US with Jesus.

The Calvinists are the robot religion. They are just weird.

The "third view of OSAS" really does impugn God's character, charging Him with causality (direct OR indirect) in their wickedness. Remember how furious Jesus got in Matt12?

Be Good and do good. It does not matter the denomination or specific belief or variances, if they preach that a Christian cannot sin their way to Hell, it false. If they preach that as long as you believe in Christ all sins are automatically forgiven or all amount of sins are forgiven, it is false. Bottom line they are preaching Heaven is full of evil doers and God and good people are going to have to go somewhere else.

All three views of OSAS are, in fact, merely repeating what Eve was told in the Garden:

"Don't worry, you won't really die."​

And as we just read in 2Cor11:3, we have the same jeopardy...

 

[Gadgetere]

You're wasting it...

Perhaps. (You're unwilling to interact with Post 342 "All of Hebrews"?) That is your choice. Everyone here is just a messenger. Our success is if we carry the messages He wishes us to.

BTW, outta curiosity -- how did you come to salvation? If "God chose you", did He choose the majority to be wicked and perish?

Just wonderin'...

 

[Truman]

Perhaps. (You're unwilling to interact with Post 342 "All of Hebrews"?) That is your choice. Everyone here is just a messenger. Our success is if we carry the messages He wishes us to.

BTW, outta curiosity -- how did you come to salvation? If "God chose you", did He choose the majority to be wicked and perish?

Just wonderin'...

Being raised by a socialist, I used to believe that Jesus was the Christmas baby and had something to do with the Easter bunny. When I was 14, I was nagged into going to church. While there, a guy read John 3:16 to me, and as he did, I saw somewhere else. I saw a sword, held by a hand, thrust through a curtain and plunge into my belly! I knew it was true! I've always believed it since...I've never had to try. I had no idea it was going to happen. That was 1973 during the Jesus People revival and it took place at a Pentecostal church. I think He wants everyone else to come to Him, too...He's like that, you know.

 

[Gadgetere]

Yes. The writer believes (by presumption) they all are. However, that does not mean that they all actually are. Whether they all are already saved or not, who the already saved, and who are not yet, he could only say.

Think about what you said -- if the writer "presumes they were saved", why would he express movement? "And FALLING AWAY" (perhaps, "having-fallen-away") -- it's not credible to try "they were not really falling away, they were never there to begin with". Further, it says "restore-them-to-repentance" --- one cannot fall from a place he never was, nor can he be restored to what he never had.

And the message continues throughout the chapter -- as exposed in my post 342 "all of Hebrews", verses 7-8 expresses that one field is TILLED, but it can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be cursed. Verses 11-12 worries that we need diligence TO not imitate the falling but those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.

Any way "diligence to imitate those who by faith ...inherit the promises", does not intend "diligence to continue in salvation"? So many verses say that; "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love" (Jude20-21). "Walk in Jesus, guard against men deceiving you away from Jesus" (Col2:6-8). "Guard against deceivers that you not shrink-in-shame when Jesus comes" (1Jn2:26-28), "Guard against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching has not God, he who abides has the Father and the Son."

Don't these (and so many more) all say the same thing? 1Tim4:16 -- "take care about yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these -- as you do you will save yourselves". Rev3:11, "take care lest anyone STEAL YOUR CROWN". What do you think I'm missing in all of these?

Only if the writer knows their heart tha

The writer expresses movement; why would he do that, if we can't really move?

A misbehaving child, disobedient he may be, and commits mistakes, remains a child no less,

So the Prodigal (Lk15:11-32) is still his father's son? The father invites people over, and -- "This is my son -- I know he's a rotting corpse, but he's still my son, say hello!" If that is not expressing "fall-from-salvation", then Antinomianism is the theme, when the Prodigal was in the far land drunk carousing fornicating he did not relfect unsalvation.

and is disciplined and chastised.

In Heb12:7-9 if we REFUSE God's discipline (even though WE WERE partners in it), then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate!

James says that, him who turns a wandering (sinning) brethren back from the error of his way, will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins. James speaks of the good of bringing a wandering brethren back from the error of his way. He is not saying that one becomes the savior of the wandering brethren unto eternal life nor is the wandering brethren when brought back is saved again unto eternal life. It is not the second death that James was referring to there by “death”.

Antinomianism again? One can be "wandered-away-from-the-truth", and "have-uncovered/unforgiven-sins", but still be saved?

(I really don't think you believe that...)

As I said, I checked out Anthropomorphism in then link you provided. As you pointed out "Anthropomorphsim" is ascribing to animals or others what men do themselves. It is not ascribing to God the act what men do to themselves, which is what you suggest.

As you and I learned, "God-hardened-Pharoah" (ex10:1), is the same as "Pharaoh-hardened-himself". You said both were true, but if so that would charge God with participation in his wickedness. God cannot do that, His "house would be divided". Matt12:25-26.

Tong: And may I ask, you don’t believe that Christ would not let His work and precious blood wasted in any way, shape, or form, or do you? I don’t think you believe and would believe He would.

One of God's basic characteristics (His nature), is "God is love" (1Jn4:16); and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5). It's not GOD who "wastes the blood", it's people like in Heb19:29 who were sanctified by Jesus' blood, but now scorns that very blood that sanctified him, insults the Spirit Who indwelt him, and tramples Jesus who (once) saved him. Same message in 2Pet1:5-11 --- the guy who "was purified from former sins" (could only have been "saved"), but now LACKS the godly fruits that are not optional for us, he is the bad example "therefore (don't BE like him) be all the more diligent to make your calling and election (salvation!) bebaios-firm.

...there's that word "diligent" again, and continuing-in-salvation is in view...

Gadgetere: We enter His fold and become His sheep (Jn10:9, "tis-anyone") by conscious choice, but any of us can become a Prodigal if we choose. As Heb3:12-14 scaringly warns against.

I don’t see how what you say there answered my question and not dodged it.

Please help me understand what I dodged, and I'll strive to answer it...

 

[Tong2020]

I am saved because God chose to save me. In a nutshell. Don't waste your breath...I won't listen.

Yes, God chose to save, and chose ‘dead’ people for salvation, to be His people, creating them anew, giving them eternal life.

Tong
R4734

 

[Gadgetere]

I noticed that a great number of those scriptures you cited there deals with not being deceived.

Before I go to comment on each of those verses, let me ask what is your thought on this:

When one is deceived, does that make him a sinner?

There are only two "real estates" in the Universe --- in Christ, or in sin. Yes if the deceit is successful (as in 1Tim4:1, "falling away from the faith", is 100% into sin. The same as 2Pet2:18, they are enticed back into defilements -- sin.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Why wasn't he speaking of "individual salvation"?>>>

Because he was talking about Israel as a nation, as the cultivated olive tree.

He says "branch-ES", plural; so if it's "as-a-nation", there would have to be several nationS, wouldn't there? Suppose that's what Paul meant -- a NATION can be cut off but not INDIVIDUALS. How would that work? Can a nation be cut off unless the members OF that nation cease believing? Or do they keep believing but their KIDS, never START believing?

How would that work?

I think we agree that the cultivated olive tree is the people of Israel and the wild olive tree is the Gentile people, right? And the branches of the olive tree, both of the cultivated and wild, are the people, from generations to generations, right? Paul speaks not of the tree that is cut off but of branches.

Now, let’s take Israel. Paul says God hardened or blinded Israel, saved a remnant according to the election of grace. The hardened Israel, individuals each, make up a nation. So, as a people, Israel was cut off. Paul in a figurative way with branches broken of. [/QUOTE]

And he is also talking about the Gentiles as a people, as the wild olive tree. By the illustration with the olive tree, Paul was saying that Gentile salvation really depends on Israel's covenant relationship with God. However, one must not forget that this is all in the plan of God concerning the Gentiles, that it was always God's purpose to bless Gentiles (Gen. 12:1-3). Apparently, something that involves a people would be difficult, if not impossible, to explain in individual terms.

Some of the natural branches (plural) were broken off, and you a wild olive (single). Do not be arrogant, but fear; for if God did not spare them NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU.

How is that not a severe warning to the "wild olive (branch) that was grafted in"?

Would you be willing to respond to my previous post, where we went through the entire letter of Hebrews? How is Rom11:18-23 not saying exactly the same thing as Heb12:7-8, accepting God's discipline enrolls us as His adopted children, but if we cease submitting to His discipline then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate?

<<<Do not be arrogant, but fear; for if God did not spare them NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU.>>>

This that God did to Israel (as a people), He would do to the Gentiles (as a people), in the same spirit as was in the case of Israel.

<<<How is Rom11:18-23 not saying exactly the same thing as Heb12:7-8, ….?>>>

Romans 11:18-23 and Hebrews 12:7-8 does not have the same context. The former is that of a hardening and the latter of chastisement.

<<<accepting God's discipline enrolls us as His adopted children, but if we cease submitting to His discipline then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate?>>>

I don’t think that is what Hebrews 11:7-8 is saying. It points out that God’s chastisement of them means that they are sons, and if they are without chastisement, it only means that they are illegitimate and are not sons.

One just has to read to see that Paul was talking about Israel, as a people, a nation, and not as individuals, in there.

Okay, how does that work? How can a NATION get "cut off for unbelief" (ignoring "branches" plural), unless the members of that nation get cut off for unbelief? Why is the wild branch warned to fear against unbelief? Why can the natural branches (more than one nation?) be grafted in again, unless individuals in that nation do not continue in unbelief?

(Why are we warned in Heb4 not to "imitate Israel's disobedience and unbelief", so as to not enter God's eternal rest?)

I think I have somehow addressed your first paragraph in the segments above.

In parenthesis, you refer to Hebrews 4. Do want for us to talk about Hebrews 4? Though I suggest that we avoid taking too much scripture references all at the same time and take them one a time if we must. Taking them all at the same time would be quite a disorder, don’t you think so?

Many seems to forget while reading that part in Romans 11, that those of Israel who we see as coming to Jesus, are of the remnant that Paul speaks about in verse 5, saved by God according to the election of grace. They should not be mistaken as those of blinded/hardened Israel; that they are being grafted back in. No. For it will not be until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, that all Israel be saved. That the time of the fullness of the Gentiles has already come, we will see Israel as a people, to have come to Jesus .

I look forward to your continuing thoughts. May our words only draw us closer to God (and each other in brotherly love), and whoever passes through and reads what we write...

Amen.

Tong
R4735

 

[BloodBought 1953]

“Those That Believe In Me *Already Have* Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation....”

It’s the Nuclear Bomb for all those that oppose OSAS —- Jesus, the Originator and Chief Proponent for OSAS was the One that dropped that bomb—- no sane man can argue against it....but boy, do they try...lol.....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“Those That Believe In Me *Already Have* Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation....”

It’s the Nuclear Bomb for all those that oppose OSAS —- Jesus, the Originator and Chief Proponent for OSAS was the One that dropped that bomb—- no sane man can argue against it....but boy, do they try...lol.....

Everybody on both sides of the argument agrees that the believing person has eternal life and will not come into condemnation. That's not even in dispute. Of course believing people are saved, lol. But there is this new movement in the church called Hyper Grace that says even people who no longer believe have eternal life and will not come into condemnation. That's where sanity goes out the door in this argument about OSAS. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom, period.

 

[Gadgetere]

If "THAT" is not what Paul wrote, "THEN" I am not "addressing" what "Paul wrote"!

** Book of James notifies you there ARE...good gifts and perfect gifts......FROM GOD!

James 1:17
[17] Every "good gift' and every "perfect gift" is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

** Book of Ephesians notifies you God's Gifts are OF GOD.

Eph 2:8
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and (that-salvation) not of yourselves: (that-salvation) is the gift of God:

Book of Romans notifies you there IS a "perfect gift OF "ETERNAL LIFE" FROM GOD"!

Romans 6:23
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No one denies that eternal life is a gift; but, see Rom5:17, saved are those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. The question between us -- if we receive the gift, why don't we have the same volition tomorrow, or the next day or the next? Can't any gift be thrown away?

** Book of 1 Peter notifies you there ARE men who have received >>>THE SPECIFIC GIFT of the END of your FAITH and SALVATION of your SOUL (1 Pet 1:9 )

Peter agrees that it is OUR FAITH, not "faith that is given TO us by God"!

Hence, Jude20-21, "build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in His love"...

NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC...OSAS...

Gods GIFT OFFERING "OF" SALVATION...
* IS A Gift from God.
Gods GIFT OFFERING "OF" SALVATION...
* BY, THOUGH another...
IS STILL a GIFT OFFERING "OF' God.

God's GIFT OFFERING "OF" SALVATION

"WAS" ORIGINALLY...
Offered...TO Hebrews and Tribesmen...
AND
TO BE RECEIVED, AFTER A MAN'S PHYSICAL BODILY DEATH!!

Gods GIFT OFFERING "OF" SALVATION
"BECAME AN EXPANDED OFFERING" TO "ALL" men
In THIS ORDER:
Jews First;
ALL Tribesmen Next;
ALL Gentiles Last.

AND
The OFFERING, ALSO EXPANDED
WHEN ANY, Jew, ANY Tribesman, ANY Gentile..COULD RECEIVE HIS OFFERING.

THE WHEN IS: BEFORE A mans PHYSICAL BODILY DEATH!

**What you REFUSE to ACKNOWLEDGE;
And DO NOT REVEAL you Comprehend...
IS:

* To hear the Word of God IS being enlightened with God's Knowledge.
* Any man can Freely choose to Hear...or Not.
* To believe Gods Knowledge...is ALSO a mans Freewill Choice.

Wait -- how do you mean this? Under "Reformed Theology" is a subdoctrine called, "Compatibilism" -- the view that yes, we have free will, but only as far as our sovereignly-directed heart allows. If left unregenerated, a man "freely" wills ONLY to disbelieve and pursue sin; but if sovereignly monergistically unilaterally regenerated he "freely" wills ONLY to believe and persevere.

So can a man choose either pursuing righteousness in God, or sin? (Hint -- Rom2:6-8, Jn3:18-20).

* Hearing a LITTLE of Gods Knowledge...God GIFTS that man with a LITTLE FAITH.
* A man BELIEVING Gods Knowledge the man Hears....God GIFTS A measure of Faith.
* IF, A man CONTINUES hearing, believing...Gods Gift of Faith INCREASES.

^ THAT IS NOT RECEIVING the Gift of Salvation
* THAT IS: a man STILL in Control of "IF" he will hear, how much, for how long.
* THAT IS: a man STILL in Control of "IF" he will STOP hearing, STOP believing.
Any man Hearing, believing....
God IS gifting that man "WITH" Faith and other Blessing.
God IS "WITH" that man.
* Any man Hearing, believing...THEN STOPS...
God STOPS gifting that man "WITH" FAITH.
God IS "NO LONGER WITH" that man.

* ANY MAN WHO...BECOMES CONVERTED "IN" Christ...HAS "SATISFIED" Gods "ORDER AND WAY", to RECEIVE GODS "GIFT OF SALVATION";
BEFORE THE mans Physical Bodily Death.

* THAT MAN BECOMES ... BY HIS WILFULL Heartful CHOICE and Admission. ONCE and FOREVER;
-Forgiven his sin
-spiritually bodily Dead
-soul restored to very good, called Saved.
-spirit quickened, called Born Again.

"Once and forever"? Do you plan to reply to my post on "all-of-Hebrews"? Do we see "once-and-forever, guaranteed-by-God salvation", in the entire letter? (No.)

* The POWER OF GOD...ie Gods SPIRIT,
Enters "IN" that man, called Baptism OF the Holy Spirit, and
KEEPS "that man" Saved & Quickened Forever.
That man, FOREVER remains "WITH" God.
God, FOREVER remains "WITH" that man.
THAT ^ APPLIES to a man OSAS

If THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU...that was your freewill choice to NOT ACCEPT Gods Offering of Baptism of His Holy Spirit, TO KEEP you FOReVER WITH Him!

Understand, there is no "Baptism-of-the-Holy-Spirit", as a second event; in Matt3:11 "He will baptize you with the Spirit", simply means we receive the Spirit (Acts11:15-17). To believe in Jesus is to receive Him, and to receive the Spirit ("be baptizo-immersed in Him"), one event.

If you disagree, let's see a verse which proposes a "second-event".

Question --- what is THE BAPTISM of Christianity? It's not water. Eph4:5, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" -- what is it? (Hint: Luke12:50, Mark10:38-39!)

Study and LEARN the Difference between...
"WHOSE POWER" KEEPS a man Forever Saved.

1Pet1:4-5, we are "protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH" --- our faith, verse 9. It's not arguable.

"WHEN and WHY" God is WITH a man....

Please see 2Jn1:7-9; we are warned against deceivers, because if we go too far and do not abide in Jesus' teachings, we (no longer) have God. He who abides has the Father and the Son. Again, not arguable.

Temporarily or Permanently."

If we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel!

Scripture after Scripture that APPLIES to a man, NOT having Received the BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT.... IS IRRELEVANT, regarding a man WHO HAS received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit".

You were repeatedly told to Divide the Word of TRUTH... Apply what Applies,
And STOP trying to APPLY that which DOES NOT APPLY.

In that, we make connections between letters, demonstrating how they all say the same things.

Men WHO, have NOT received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit....ARE repeatedly WARNED....they ARE in danger of losing the Gift of Salvation, bought for them; paid for for them; and Offered to them....BECAUSE THEY FREELY CHOOSE, to NOT ACCEPT...or flat out REJECT Gods Gift of Salvation.

And that can be done by one who was truly saved, if he allows himself to be deceived into unbelief.

With all of the clear verses that we are reading, how much longer do you think OSAS views will continue?

 

[Truman]

Everybody on both sides of the argument agrees that the believing person has eternal life and will not come into condemnation. That's not even in dispute. Of course believing people are saved, lol. But there is this new movement in the church called Hyper Grace that says even people who no longer believe have eternal life and will not come into condemnation. That's where sanity goes out the door in this argument about OSAS. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom, period.

Hey, that would be great if everybody was saved...but that's just not how it is. God doesn't lie, Jesus didn't die for nothing.
Time will tell...the truth! If people want to believe that, I say let them. I'm not God. They can deal with Him.

 

[Gadgetere]

Did you receive the Holy Spirit because you came to Jesus, that is, you believed in Jesus?

That is how we receive the Spirit. "The Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did us at the beginning; ...God gave them the same gift as He also gave us after believing." Acts11:15-17

Verse 16 calls that "baptized-with-the-Holy-Spirit" -- there is no second-event-baptism, it simply means what Peter said; "they received the Spirit just as we did after believing".

 

[Truman]

If someone wants to believe that they can lose their salvation...I've heard it said that some can. I can't...I tried...lots!
I'm saved because God said so. He saved me. I wasn't looking for Him. I'm thankful now. I like to encourage people, just not argue.
"And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” - Romans 10:20