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Behold

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Here is how Spiritual Darkness sounds when it teaches or believes wrong.

"you can lose your salvation".

'im afraid i have blasphemed the holy spirit".

"if your faith is dead, then you are going to hell".

"if you dont hold unto your faith, you are going to hell"

"James teaches that its not just by faith, but you have to work your way into heaven"

"im supposed to be sinning and confessing, and that is why i do it, thats real Christianity"

"noone can stop sinning".

"if you are still sinning, then its because you are not really born again".

"water baptism saved me"

"if you dont endure to the end, you will die and go to hell".

"Hebrews 10:26 says that a unsaved Hebrew (Jew) has willfully sinned and is a Christ Rejector, and that means its a Christian that did it."

"God created all the evil in the world".

"God chooses some for hell, and others for heaven, and there is no Free will".

"If you dont confess all your sin, then your sin is not forgiven".

"sin is forgiven, but not any that you commit after you are saved... unless you confess them ALL".

------------------

So, did i call your number?
Did i hit you with a bullseye?

So, if you are any of that or all of that, or most of that, then you are in the Dark.
And what does that mean?
It means this. :

Jesus said..."be careful that the LIGHT that is in you, is not DARKNESS"..

So, this means a person, who is born again, can be a DARK LIGHT.

This means, they teach contrary to TRUTH< as Truth is LIGHT, which exposes them as deceived by the devil.

So, how do you stop being that Dark Light?

You go here.. Hebrews 13:9
And you come to the revelation of this verse.
This means that all the JUNK , all the "doctrines of Man" that has created you to be a Dark Light, what i just listed as your BELIEF SYSTEM......you find your way OUT of that Spiritual Darkness by establishing your Heart of FAITH, totally, carefully, and endlessly, on and in= The Grace of God.
Hebrews 13:9

And when you get there, this is how you know you have arrived, or if you have not yet.
You will BELIEVE that you can not lose your salvation...... no matter what, and you will believe that you don't have to keep it, because Jesus's Blood always keeps it for you.
That is the first Truth you have to BELIEVE, that once received and believed, defines that you have begun to understand, comprehend, and live within your "in Christ" eternal Status, = that is to exist in the RIGHT MIND, that is "Walking in the Spirit."

How do you get there?
First you SEE YOURSELF as not being within Right Believing.
Look at that list again.....Are you on it?
You have to start there to be freed from these Satanic Strongholds.
 

Hidden In Him

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"if you dont endure to the end, you will die and go to hell".

You covered a lot of territory this time, LoL. You hit on enough doctrines to start a debate with virtually the entire forum world in one way or another.

But let me ask about the above: Do you believe a Christian can deny Christ and denounce Him as being the Son of God and still be saved? That's what enduring until the end was about.
 

Ziggy

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"you can lose your salvation".
What happens to those Jesus spews out of his mouth though?
What happens to those who choose to forget God and look towards let's say Darwinism to be the answer?
Are you saying one can not lose their salvation even though Paul says your branch can be cut off from the vine?
What about those that are twice dead and plucked out by the roots themselves?

Let's just start with this as #1.
 

Ziggy

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'im afraid i have blasphemed the holy spirit".
And this is to blasheme God himself.
Let me show you..

2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

1Ki 21:10 And set two men, sons of Belial, before him, to bear witness against him, saying, Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.

1Ki 21:13 And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.

Psa 74:10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever?

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Blaspheme:
to spurn, contemn, despise, abhor
Strong's H5006 - na'ats

Num 14:11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke H5006 me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

1Sa 2:17 Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD: for men abhorred H5006 the offering of the LORD.

Psa 10:13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn H5006 God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.

Psa 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned H5006 the counsel of the most High:

Strong's G988 - blasphēmia

slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name
impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty
blas-fay-me'-ah; from G989; vilification (especially against God):—blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, G988 be put away from you, with all malice:

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, G988 evil surmisings,

Jde 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing G988 accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I suppose if one rails against, speaks ill of, feels contemptable or, is abhorred by, or provokes God..
Then they are sinning against the Holy Spirit.

What say you?
 

Behold

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You covered a lot of territory this time, LoL. You hit on enough doctrines to start a debate with virtually the entire forum world in one way or another.

But let me ask about the above: Do you believe a Christian can deny Christ and denounce Him as being the Son of God and still be saved? That's what enduring until the end was about.

Thx for the Question.

So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....

To fall from Grace,..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands......"im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin, and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a heretic, by the Devil.
They get subverted away from this ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.

See, the Legalist, the self saver, can't SEE that you can't be more saved then you are, when you are born again.
Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
THe Legalist has no FAITH that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.

A person who has become ....."im doing this or im not to do that"....and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost. So this person.....cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.

So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven.....and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, as your means to go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.

So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, to get you into heaven..

See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has wrong believing about THAT, then they are faith subverted, they have a STRONGHOLD that is spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".

THE LEGALIST, the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
In your case, "enduring" has become your faith, that you now BELIEVE gets you into heaven, OR KEEPS YOU OUT, if you dont do it.
And understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, that has replaced THE REAL Savior.
And this is "falling From Grace".
 
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Behold

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What happens to those Jesus spews out of his mouth though?
What happens to those who choose to forget God and look towards let's say Darwinism to be the answer?
Are you saying one can not lose their salvation even though Paul says your branch can be cut off from the vine?
What about those that are twice dead and plucked out by the roots themselves?

Let's just start with this as #1.


Jesus said that all that trust in Him, will "never perish".
And why is that?
Why can you never perish? Why can you never stop being born again?

Its because God has done something for you, that He CAUSED, that is not of you.

Now, one problem with theology, is that when the rules of "rightly dividing" are not obeyed., which is to "spiritually discern" as "rightly dividing"... then what happens is, a person just reads the words as if they are reading a dictionary, and they are not able to discern the context.
This is why someone will quote a symbolic verse, like you did, and try to believe that this is to be understood in a secular way that would seem to suggest, what it does not...

Listen Reader......the bible is not a dictionary. Its BREAD. Its LIGHT. Its a PATH. ITs Holy. ITs Spiritual. Its Mystical. Its Milk. Its a SEED.


A Legalist will look at a SYMBOLIC verse that talks about Jesus the Vine, and the believer's as the branch, or the fruit, and misunderstand this as how to stay saved, which omits and misunderstands the spiritual context of the verse, as all of God's word is SPIRitUALLY DISCERNED because God is A Spirit and His words are Spirit and Truth and Light and LIFE.... means that God's words have to be spiritually understood, or you end up confused.

So, a verse that is symbolic, is symbolic.
Legalist are drawn to verses, for some reason, that are symbolic, and they try to use these as LITERAL.
When you find someone always talking about enduring, or talking about lukewarm spit in Jesus's mouth, or Candlesticks, or Vines, you have always discoverd a Legalist.

Look at the Vine verse.
Is Jesus a plant?
Not quite.
So, this symbolic verse is teaching, not anything about how to stay saved, but only about bearing spiritual fruit...or not.
See, at the end of a Vine, you have a Fruit.......its what the vine PRODUCES. So, when we exist in Right Believing, then Jesus is going to live through us, His power, as our Spiritual Fruit.
And when we become apart from the "vine"= or fall from God's Grace, in our Believing, then we have separated from the spiritual vine, and are become dead fruit.
 

Behold

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And this is to blasheme God himself.

Then they are sinning against the Holy Spirit.

A believer can't stop being born again.
So, that ends all heresy regarding the many ways a self saving Legalist tries to prove they can burn in the Lake of Fire, or that you can.

Understand, that being born again, is why you will go to heaven.
So, no deed, act, thought, desire, lust, or any similar work of the flesh, can undo a BIRTH.
Believers go to heaven because they are Born Again, and not because of anything you can do, as a lifestyle.

Now, Blasphemy.

That would be a person, a blasphemer, who is on a Forum or in Pulpit denying that God's Grace (The BLood of Jesus) keeps you saved.
Thats a blasphemer. Thats an enemy of the Cross, as Paul defines them.
Jude teaches that these are "committing the error of Cain".
Its Someone who uses The Bible in a deceptive way that abuses its Truth to try to cause Real Believers to falsely believing that they can lose their salvation or commit the unpardonable sin, (Blasphemy OF the Holy Spirt).


Now here is the correct understanding of these 2.

Blasphemy of the HS< is to reject Christ. Or as you find unsaved Jews (Hebrews) doing in Hebrews 10.
The result of doing this and still being alive, is this........John 3:36
The result of being that person and dying, is Revelation 20:11. and "depart from me, i never new you"... = Lake of Fire.

Blasphemy AGAINST the HS< is to accuse Jesus to His FACE, when He was on the earth, that His miracles are performed by the power of the Devil.

So, if you are born again, you can't reject Christ, (Blaspheme the Holy Spirit) as being born again, proves you didnt.

And the only way to Blaspheme AGAINST the Holy Spirit, is to tell Jesus to his face, what those Pharisees said to Him when He was on the Earth.
 

Hidden In Him

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Thx for the Question.

So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....

To fall from Grace,..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands......"im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin, and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a heretic, by the Devil.
They get subverted away from this ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.

See, the Legalist, the self saver, can't SEE that you can't be more saved then you are, when you are born again.
Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
THe Legalist has no FAITH that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.

A person who has become ....."im doing this or im not to do that"....and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost. So this person.....cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.

So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven.....and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, as your means to go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.

So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, to get you into heaven..

See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has wrong believing about THAT, then they are faith subverted, they have a STRONGHOLD that is spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".

THE LEGALIST, the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
In your case, "enduring" has become your faith, that you now BELIEVE gets you into heaven, OR KEEPS YOU OUT, if you dont do it.
And understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, that has replaced THE REAL Savior.
And this is "falling From Grace".

But Behold, I read through your entire entry, and you paint the word "endure" in a negative light throughout, as if it is a "work" and therefore to be considered anathema.

Listen, this is not how the word is used in the NT at all. It is used consistently in a very positive light, especially by the apostle Paul. I can cite Chapter and verse for you on this if you like, and provide a long list of examples. But you paint the word in a very negative light whereas scripture (even Old Testament scripture) paints it in the opposite light from the way you are depicting it.

I think you have your theology messed up on this issue and completely turned around because you are so heavily invested in Faith Alone that you can't see the value in much of anything else. But you are oversimplifying the NT message and doing it harm in the process.

I know you're not doing this deliberately or even consciously, but that brand of teaching does great harm to the true gospel nonetheless.
 

Behold

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But Behold, I read through your entire entry, and you paint the word "endure" in a negative light throughout, as if it is a "work" and therefore to be considered anathema.

Listen.

to endure, is not something Jesus does for you.
to endure, has nothing to do with being born again.

to endure, is to by self effort try to ................ stay saved, as how you are thinking it must be done.

There is "enduring" that is to live in this world as a "peculiar people" created for Good Works, that is all about "be in the world but not of the world".
So, in that case, that would be "deny yourself"..>"take up your cross"....ect.


But to try to stay saved by "enduring to the end"......is to be "fallen from Grace"., as Salvation is not something that you endure to the end, to possess or keep.
See, Salvation is a GIFT.
You dont "endure" for a Gift, you RECEIVE a Gift.

It could be that your issue, theologically, is that you are confusing discipleship with Salvation.
They are not the same.
Salvation: is God Provided as "the GIFT of Salvation". = That is eternal life.
Discipleship: is how you behave, because you ARE born again, yet this is not WHY you are saved, and its not how you remain saved.
 

Ziggy

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I like the way you dance :)
Not sure if it's the boogie woogie or the shuffle.

Listen Reader......the bible is not a dictionary. Its BREAD. Its LIGHT. Its a PATH. ITs Holy. ITs Spiritual. Its Mystical. Its Milk. Its a SEED.

It really is awesome isn't it? :)

A Legalist will look at a SYMBOLIC verse that talks about Jesus the Vine, and the believer's as the branch, or the fruit, and misunderstand this as how to stay saved, which omits and misunderstands the spiritual context of the verse, as all of God's word is SPIRitUALLY DISCERNED because God is A Spirit and His words are Spirit and Truth and Light and LIFE.... means that God's words have to be spiritually understood, or you end up confused.

I know, it's hard sometimes people can't see through the flesh and understand the spiritual meanings of things.
When it comes to the babe it helps to draw pictures to understand a spiritual truth.
I don't look at the literal so much as the spiritual, because I know God's word is spiritual, and they are truth.
Jesus is the root, the branch, the vine, and the fruit. He is all and in all.
But some fruit is not his, it didn't grow on his vine, it's not attached to his branch, and he is not their root.
I'm glad I'm not confused. And that's why God makes it easy to understand, if you study.

So, a verse that is symbolic, is symbolic.
Legalist are drawn to verses, for some reason, that are symbolic, and they try to use these as LITERAL.
When you find someone always talking about enduring, or talking about lukewarm spit in Jesus's mouth, or Candlesticks, or Vines, you have always discoverd a Legalist.

So all those parables Jesus taught means He is a legalist too?
If so, I feel like I'm in good company.. kind of on the inside.

Do you understand that the whole bible is spiritual?
Every word of it. EVERY WORD.
Did you know that every spiritual word is witness to itself in the literal world?


Look at the Vine verse.
Is Jesus a plant?
Not quite.
Look at the Vine verse.
Is Jesus a plant?
Not quite.

He says he is:
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

But I understand the spiritual meaning. Some have trouble grasping it. I agree.

So, this symbolic verse is teaching, not anything about how to stay saved, but only about bearing spiritual fruit...or not.

Well it's like that song.. the hip bone connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone connected to the ankle bone..
hold on I'll find it.. :)

Keep in mind, all things connected to the head bone.. or your not connected to anything that matters.


Hugs
 

Hidden In Him

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Listen.

to endure, is not something Jesus does for you.
to endure, has nothing to do with being born again.

to endure, is to by self effort try to ................ stay saved, as how you are thinking it must be done.

There is "enduring" that is to live in this world as a "peculiar people" created for Good Works, that is all about "be in the world but not of the world".
So, in that case, that would be "deny yourself"..>"take up your cross"....ect.

But to try to stay saved by "enduring to the end"......is to be "fallen from Grace"., as Salvation is not something that you endure to the end, to possess or keep.
See, Salvation is a GIFT.
You dont "endure" for a Gift, you RECEIVE a Gift.

You are into double talk now, LoL.

Behold, salvation is a gift, but there is such a thing as responding properly to that gift. If God sends preachers to me to share the gospel and then pours out His Holy Spirit upon me in power, but also warns me that if they hated Christ then they will hate me and that I must therefore persevere in the face of persecution and not deny Him, but then I turn around and deny Him before men anyway, am I walking worthy of the gift that was given to me?
 

Hidden In Him

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I like the way you dance :)
Not sure if it's the boogie woogie or the shuffle.


dance-funny-gif-Favim.com-369480.gif
 
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Ziggy

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"James teaches that its not just by faith, but you have to work your way into heaven"

Let's see what James says about works and then compare with what Jesus says about works.
Are they compatable or are they in opposition to each other?
Let's see:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Let's hear what Jesus has to say about works:

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Some people like a free ticket. Or let's say, they just want to eat the fruit off other people's trees.
But somebody has to dig a hole and plant and water that tree for the fruit to grow so you can eat it.
Now, the "charitable" thing to do is to go dig a hole yourself, plant a tree, and water it so other's can enjoy the fruits of your labour.
Now God provides the soil, the seed, the rain, and the fruit. But you have to get your own hands dirty to help "tend" the garden.
That's why God put husbandmen in the vineyard.. like Adam. To show that one is able to provide for a household.
Giving them milk and meat in due season. Like shepherds of the sheep.
Some people think they can just sit back and let others do the work while they live off charity.
We call that welfare here in the US.
And some people really need it, and other people really abuse it.
I believe if your going to collect something for free, you aught to at the minimum love your neighbor and not stand by and watch them freeze or starve or be unjustly treated by others.

These are those "works" James is talking about.

These are the fruits of the Spirit Paul talks about.

This is what Jesus is talking about.

I don't know what your talking about.

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Ziggy

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Do you know that it is not even our faith that saves us?

We are saved through Jesus' faith.
When Jesus was dying he prayed to Our Father and asked that we be forgiven because we are some ignorant sheep.
Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Now Our Father because he is FULL of Grace and Mercy, heard Jesus' request.
And by the Grace of Our Father willing to cover our sins in his own blood are we saved.
However, one must BELIEVE in God's Grace, Jesus'Faith, and repent (or turn from the old ways worldly lustful fleshly) to a new way.
Which isn't a new way, It's God's way. It's just it's new to us because many if not all have never fully walked it.

Now you can be on the right path leading yourself, but without a Light, your going to get lost.
Without a map you will not find the door.
And without a key.. nothing unlocks the truth.

We can't earn salvation. We can't buy our way in. If we try to climb in some other way, we will get caught.

So now we are the children of God. By his Grace and Mercy he has adopted us through the faith in His Son Jesus.
Peradventure there be 10 righteous, will ye save them for 10?
Jesus says even 1.
1 lost sheep. He came to save.
That one is All Adam's children who had gone astray.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on him, shall be saved.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Now I know there's a lot of people that don't really understand what Paul is saying. And it gets pretty complicated and argumentative specially when it comes to the "legalists" .

Those works are the sacrificing of bulls and lambs and rams and all manner of animals (which in truth refers to us the people being sacrificed or dying for our sins)
We are as sheep led to the slaughter..

But those animals those sheep were only a "symbol" to represent our sins. Killing them wasn't going to keep us from sinning.
It don't matter if you slaughterd every last animal on the planet. You could not be justified by their deaths.
In fact it just made you more guilty, because the more you sinned, the more you killed and God even says he didn't give the commandment to do such things.
And if God didn't, then who did?

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

So getting back to the "law" . This law about sacificing animals for your sins.. that won't get you anywhere no matter how hard you try.
These are the "works" of the "law" .

Also known as the "ordinances" .

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

What was taken away and nailed to the cross?
Animal sacrifices.

Doesn't say anything about statutes, judgements, commandments or other laws.. it says ordinances.. which Hebrews 9:10 gives in detail.

Now the Sabbath was given before there was laws. It also is a free gift. Circumcision was given before the law, and represents circumcision of the stony heart to a fleshy heart.. one that actually has feelings of compassion and mercy.
Which is also verified many times in the OT. This is not a "new" thing.

So by the Grace of God are we saved by the Faith of Jesus. Who gave himself as a one time sacrifice for the world's sins.
Because He loved us. And if he had not, we would have been as Sodom and Gomorrah.. destruction like the flood of Noah.
And today, we are treading on God's grace. We are trying to live by our own Faith.
We choose to follow the shepherd who laid his life down for us, by willingly laying down our lives for Him.
Not by offering animals, but by offering ourselves.
That is what was nailed to the cross.

rant rover..
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marks

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Look at the Vine verse.
Is Jesus a plant?
Not quite.
Considering that God knew ahead of time the things He'd be telling us, it's not like He looked around the earth, Hmm, what to what shall I compare?

Jesus and me, the vine and the branch. Husband and wife, Christ and the redeemed.

"For this cause" Paul wrote, that a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, For this cause, what cause? We are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.

The reason for human marraige is to show us what it's like between Jesus and us.

Perhaps that's why God made the vine the way He did, to show us our relation to Jesus. Not some pithy analogy, He IS the vine, we ARE the branches, and I think the plant was made, among other reasons, to show us how it is with us.

Much love!
 
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Pearl

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You covered a lot of territory this time, LoL. You hit on enough doctrines to start a debate with virtually the entire forum world in one way or another.

But let me ask about the above: Do you believe a Christian can deny Christ and denounce Him as being the Son of God and still be saved? That's what enduring until the end was about.
I don't believe a true repentant, born again Christian could ever do that because the Holy Spirit lives in them.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I don't believe a true repentant, born again Christian could ever do that because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

This is a well-put way to explain the position, and I'm familiar with it. My problem with it, however, is that it takes away human will. I am in a more unique position than I think many people are in this respect, in that my personal make up is SO emotional that I know very well I can "channel" if you will two different spirits. Even as a truly devoted Christian who loves God and serves Him every day, I am capable of great good and great evil. Moses loved God, but he also killed a man in his anger.

Given my personality (which I don't think is all that rare but just sort of exemplary of the extremes), I truly cannot relate to the concept that good men cannot do evil, or turn to evil. It seems to fly directly in the face of reality to me.

But I do understand the position. I would like to believe there is nothing I could ever do to lose my salvation, but I know myself too well to believe in such a thing.
 
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Pearl

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This is a well-put way to explain the position, and I'm familiar with it. My problem with it, however, is that it takes away human will. I am in a more unique position than I think many people are in this respect, in that my personal make up is SO emotional that I know very well I can "channel" if you will two different spirits. Even as a truly devoted Christian who loves God and serves Him every day, I am capable of great good and great evil. Moses loved God, but he also killed a man in his anger.

Given my personality (which I don't think is all that rare but just sort of exemplary of the extremes), I truly cannot relate to the concept that good men cannot do evil, or turn to evil. It seems to fly directly in the face of reality to me.

But I do understand the position. I would like to believe there is nothing I could ever do to lose my salvation, but I know myself too well to believe in such a thing.
God knows all of you; the good, the bad and the ugly. Do you think that he would allow you to renounce him? He knows your heart, the real true heart of you. Are you afraid that you may one day turn you back on him and renounce him? And do you pray about it?
 
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Hidden In Him

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God knows all of you; the good, the bad and the ugly. Do you think that he would allow you to renounce him? He knows your heart, the real true heart of you. Are you afraid that you may one day turn you back on him and renounce him? And do you pray about it?

No. Admittedly I don't worry about it. I would never renounce Him in a million years. But I also think my situation is different than the new born Christian, or even the average Christian. I think once you have grown to sufficient "height and strength" (using the analogy of a tree here), there is no longer any great fear where spiritual stability is concerned. But the danger is in the very earliest stages of spiritual growth, and that is where I think it is possible for a truly born again Christian to turn back into the world, whether through temptation of the Devil, or through fear of persecution and even death, as the Parable of the Sower teaches.

I think when a tree is just a sprout sticking out of the ground it is at its most vulnerable. Is it still a tree? Yes, but it is still not fully "established in the faith" as the apostle Paul liked to say.
 
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