Pains and suffering

[Ronald Nolette]

Why will God allow pain and suffering? I sometimes believe i am in hell already

Quite simply; we live in bodies of sin and death so we will suffer for that.

Second we live in a fallen world and will develop illnesses and stuff from living here and suffer.

Third we suffer from our own sinfulness. Remember th ewages of sin is death and at times God will allow us to experience the consequences of sin because He loves us and desires to teach us to hate sin more.

Fourth we may suffer for the glory of God. Like Job!

I am sure there are other reasons, but those are the biggies.

 

[Scott Downey]

There is also this, Romans 8. The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, the saints of God, according to the will of God.
All the things that happen to you, God works for your good, your betterment. All things are yours. Meaning all for your good.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession [g]for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 3
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

 

[Scott Downey]

Peter also tells us this,
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials,

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[Bob Estey]

Why will God allow pain and suffering? I sometimes believe i am in hell already

I believe the Lord's teachings, when followed, lead to peace. When we get away from those teachings, we suffer. For whatever reason, I think God wants it that way.

 

[Scott Downey]

I believe the Lord's teachings, when followed, lead to peace. When we get away from those teachings, we suffer. For whatever reason, I think God wants it that way.

Yes, as Jesus says, while we are in the world, we will have tribulation, this is not always an easy life. But in Christ you may have peace.
Cause better days are coming. We are delivered from this evil world and all troubles by Christ, even though for now we may experience severe trials, but they do end. Trials come to prove our faith genuine, so that you can know that enduring trials and overcoming the world by your faith means you will reign with Him in the age of the resurrection

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

John 16:32-33​

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New King James Version​

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​

32 Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his [a]own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you [b]will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

 

[Rockerduck]

I'll add this:

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon(Satan) was enraged with the woman(Israel), and he went to make war(torment) with the rest of her offspring( that's us) who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

I'll add this:

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon(Satan) was enraged with the woman(Israel), and he went to make war(torment) with the rest of her offspring( that's us) who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You can also find this in Daniel 7. God has told us how it all ends.
It ends with this, the meek shall inherit the earth, just like Christ taught us.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Daniel 7

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke [i]pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows. (Antichrist figure of the last of the last days at the end of the age)

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time. (3.5 years of time)
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
28 “This is the end of the [k]account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

 

[face2face]

I'll add this:

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon(Satan) was enraged with the woman(Israel), and he went to make war(torment) with the rest of her offspring( that's us) who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

No got this wrong sorry Rocket.

What period is this prophecy set? For the remnant of believers who still held the true Gospel, how did this prophecy provide them comfort and confidence to keep preaching and living godly lives?

The imagery being used needs unpacking:

Dragon:
Woman:
Offspring:

Consider your first issue - the woman is being persecuted and its her offspring who alone obeys the commandments of Christ. The woman must therefore be Christian and apostate.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Israel is no longer in view! The development of apostate Christianity is!

I'll let you work out who the dragon is and why it warred against the woman!

F2F

 

[Scott Downey]

No got this wrong sorry Rocket.

What period is this prophecy set? For the remnant of believers who still held the true Gospel, how did this prophecy provide them comfort and confidence to keep preaching and living godly lives?

The imagery being used needs unpacking:

Dragon:
Woman:
Offspring:

Consider your first issue - the woman is being persecuted and its her offspring who alone obeys the commandments of Christ. The woman must therefore be Christian and apostate.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Israel is no longer in view! The development of apostate Christianity is!

I'll let you work out who the dragon is and why it warred against the woman!

F2F

For refence here is all of it. The woman is not apostate. She is protected by God, shielded from Satan.
Perhaps she is Mary and her faithful family. Clothed with Sun, Moon and stars, she is an important figure to God.
------------------------------------
1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is the connection, The faithful family of Mary going back to the patriarchs whose line God preserved so that they would bear the Messiah, Christ the Lord.

Woman Clothed with the Sun, God's People persecuted by the Dragon - A Revelation of Jesus | www.revelationofjesus.net

The Woman Clothed with the Sun of Revelation 12 symbolized God's people, Israel in the Old Testament and the Christian Church in the New Testament. Satan, symbolized by a dragon, persecuted the woman during the 1260 years of the Middle Ages but God protected a remnant who were faithful to Him.

revelationofjesus.net

First of all, this section is highly symbolic. A woman in prophecy symbolizes God’s chosen people, in Old Testament times the nation of Israel and in New Testament times the Church. This particular woman is surrounded by the sun, moon and twelve stars. The only passage of scripture that mentions all of these heavenly bodies together is Genesis 37, where Joseph’s dream of the sun, moon and 12 stars symbolized his father Jacob, his mother Rachel, and the twelve sons of Jacob who, along with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, were the patriarchs of the nation Israel.

 

[-Phil]

Why will God allow pain and suffering? I sometimes believe i am in hell already

Pain & suffering are guidance. Pain guides the body, suffering guides the mind.
Suffering is uniquely different than pain.
Pain is localized & can be pointed to, such as pointing out to a doctor which ankle is twisted.
Suffering is non-local and can not be pointed to, such as being in heaven while believing you’re in hell.

 

[face2face]

For refence here is all of it. The woman is not apostate. She is protected by God, shielded from Satan.
Perhaps she is Mary and her faithful family. Clothed with Sun, Moon and stars, she is an important figure to God.
------------------------------------
1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

So understanding how and why the "earth" helped the woman is also important in understanding how apostate Christianity was developed in those early centuries.

I would assume you may not understand what the "earth" represents in the apocalypse?

12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I think it's incredible how God was able to hide His truth in such imagery! You really do need to understand God working in the kingdoms of men to interpret this prophecy.

F2F

 

[Jack]

Why will God allow pain and suffering? I sometimes believe i am in hell already

Read the Bible. It gives us all the answers we need.

 

[Scott Downey]

For refence here is all of it. The woman is not apostate. She is protected by God, shielded from Satan.
Perhaps she is Mary and her faithful family. Clothed with Sun, Moon and stars, she is an important figure to God.
------------------------------------
1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Now your making up stuff about the earth.

So understanding how and why the "earth" helped the woman is also important in understanding how apostate Christianity was developed in those early centuries.

I would assume you may not understand what the "earth" represents in the apocalypse?

12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I think it's incredible how God was able to hide His truth in such imagery! You really do need to understand God working in the kingdoms of men to interpret this prophecy.

F2F

Now your making up stuff about the earth. The earth helped the woman because God commanded it to do so.

 

[Jack]

So understanding how and why the "earth" helped the woman is also important in understanding how apostate Christianity was developed in those early centuries.

I would assume you may not understand what the "earth" represents in the apocalypse?

12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

I think it's incredible how God was able to hide His truth in such imagery! You really do need to understand God working in the kingdoms of men to interpret this prophecy.

F2F

Maybe you need an emergency meeting at Kingdom Hall to find out what you believe?

 

[Scott Downey]

For refence here is all of it. The woman is not apostate. She is protected by God, shielded from Satan.
Perhaps she is Mary and her faithful family. Clothed with Sun, Moon and stars, she is an important figure to God.
------------------------------------
1Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Revelation Chapter 12

David Guzik commentary on Revelation 12 explains the woman, the child, and the dragon, and the conflict in heaven between Michael and the dragon.

enduringword.com

Again just as I said

· The woman, representing Israel.

· The dragon, representing Satan.

· The man-child, referring to Jesus.

· The angel Michael, head of the angelic host.

· The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith in the Tribulation.

· The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist.

· The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the antichrist.

. Conflict on the earth.​

1. (13-16) Satan attacks the woman, and God protects her.​

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

etc...

 

[atpollard]

“I have learned to kiss the waves that throw me up against the Rock of Ages”​

― Charles H. Spurgeon

 

[atpollard]

“God had one son on earth without sin, but never one without suffering.”
- Saint Augustine

 

[face2face]

Now your making up stuff about the earth.



Now your making up stuff about the earth. The earth helped the woman because God commanded it to do so.

Okay so this is what happens when a persons exegesis fails to work for them...they hit a wall and can go no further.

Explain the symbol of the earth and why it helped the woman.

What is the significance of the earth & the woman?
How do they relate to the events of Revelation 11?
Who is persecuting who in Revelation 12?

Remember the Revelation is the development of pagan Christianity and the development of the apostasy as forewarned by the Apostles and John at Patmos.

If you are apart of this apostasy it would nigh on impossible for you to see it.

F2F

 

[face2face]

1. (13-16) Satan attacks the woman, and God protects her.
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

etc...

What do the two wings of a great eagle represent Scott?