Parable of the Ten Virgins

[Enoch111]

It's cheating what the word of God actually says to fit your theology, rather than letting what it says form it.

And you are trying to build doctrine on a parable. Which is worse?

Parables are simply ILLUSTRATIONS. We must look for the truth in what is actually revealed about the Rapture and the entrance into the Kingdom of God. Those foolish virgins were not saved even though they believed they were *Christians*. There are many in same that boat.

 

[Enoch111]

In other words, "We can pick and choose whatever parts of the parables of the Lord Jesus Christ we want to keep, and discard whatever parts present problems to our theology," LoL.

Bottom line: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Does Christ say "I know you not" to a genuine child of God?

 

[Helen]

And yet they were shut out from the presence of the Bridegroom. No genuine Christian will experience that. As I said a parable is parable and if you stretch it too far you end up with a parabola.

I think you, like many others do , you read into it something which isn't there.
Yes, shut out away from the Bridegroom. It does not say forever and every ....
If you remember the parable of the unjust steward , he was sent to prison "until he had paid to the very last farthing"....it wasn't "forever".


Luke 12
"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows."

The 5 foolish Virgins were His servants ...yes a punishment ...but to lose salvation, or to say that they never knew the Lord... is taking a big jump ...

 

[Invisibilis]

... Wine is a type of the Spirit we know...

Spirtus contra spiritum.
Spirit (of God) against spirit (of alcohol). _ Old AA saying.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And you are trying to build doctrine on a parable. Which is worse?

I believe you just relegated the parables of the Lord Jesus Christ to being less trustworthy than the rest of His teachings, and thus essentially NOT truly the word of God in any dependable sense.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Bottom line: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Does Christ say "I know you not" to a genuine child of God?

Why are you asking me questions when I laid out my entire interpretation in the OP?

 

[marks]

"Neither grammar nor language is critical..."

What were you talking about?

When we start trying to assign meanings and draw doctrine from every last detail in a parable we can end up in the weeds!

I mean when you come to a parable such as this, with the idea that every detail is pregnant with meaning, and then start fishing around to find what that meaning might be, well, in some cases, you'll end up with a Scriptural foundation, such as the Sower, or the Wheat and Tares, these we know what everything is, well, not everything!

Take the wheat and the tares. Gather the wheat into my barn, he tells them. We know the reapers are the angels, and the wheat the children of the kingdom, and the tares the children of the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, Jesus told us all that.

What is the barn?

If you believe in an immediate eternal state then it's that. If you believe in the millennial kingdom then it's that. But is it supposed to mean anything besides occupying the place of a large storage building within the context of the story?

What is the Oil? It's lamp fuel. Isn't anything beyond that simply speculation, unless, as with the Sower, or the Wheat and Tares, the Bible actually tells us?

And if speculation, not a firm foundation for doctrine.

Much love!

 

[Invisibilis]

From the parable - Readiness at any hour
Matthew 24:50-51 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

From the parable of the ten virgins, plus a potion of the parable of the talents
Matthew 25:1-14, 29.
1. "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. Five were in falsehood and five were truth filled.
3. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. Did not replenish their Truth.
4. The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. Kept replenishing their Truth.
5. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6. "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
7. "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. To redraw their reserves of what they know is true.
8. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' They wanted what the true had, and in reserve.
9. "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' The true know that the false think they can buy their way into heaven. If the true compromised their truth towards falsehood, they themselves will also lose out.
10. "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11. "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!' They thought by buying oil they bought their way into heaven.
12. "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.' The Lord will not recognize falsehood, or lack of faith.
13. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
14. "Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them.
...
29. For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

 

[Hidden In Him]

When we start trying to assign meanings and draw doctrine from every last detail in a parable we can end up in the weeds!

I mean when you come to a parable such as this, with the idea that every detail is pregnant with meaning, and then start fishing around to find what that meaning might be, well, in some cases, you'll end up with a Scriptural foundation, such as the Sower, or the Wheat and Tares, these we know what everything is, well, not everything!

Take the wheat and the tares. Gather the wheat into my barn, he tells them. We know the reapers are the angels, and the wheat the children of the kingdom, and the tares the children of the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, Jesus told us all that.

What is the barn?

If you believe in an immediate eternal state then it's that. If you believe in the millennial kingdom then it's that. But is it supposed to mean anything besides occupying the place of a large storage building within the context of the story?

What is the Oil? It's lamp fuel. Isn't anything beyond that simply speculation, unless, as with the Sower, or the Wheat and Tares, the Bible actually tells us?

Marks, no offense, but this is just awful. Before Jesus spelled out the Parable of the Sower, he chastised the disciples for being so dim that He would have to. You are here giving justification for the entire church to be out in the dark on every parable but the ones He personally explained Himself. Your expectations for the church and Christ's expectations for the church (and mine) are quite different.

And if speculation, not a firm foundation for doctrine.

Much love!

By this last statement, you also relegate the parables to being less trustworthy than the rest of Christ's teachings; something He intended only for people to "speculate" on but not analyze too strictly. This makes them wide open to whatever interpretations anyone deems fit to give them, and why not, since they are "not a firm foundation for doctrine"?

This position makes them worthless at best and potentially heretical at worst.

 

[marks]

By this last statement, you also relegate the parables to being less trustworthy than the rest of Christ's teachings;

Not at all.

I simply raise the bar on parables to what we should be doing with all Scripture.

 

[amadeus]

No matter how we see the five wise vs the five foolish there is one thing we can know for sure..They ALL slumbered and slept! Interesting isn't it?

Sleeping is not such an evil thing if we sleep as Jesus slept aboard ship with the disciples. Remember his words to them when he awoke: "O ye of little faith".

 

[amadeus]

Question . . . why do you see these as church leaders in the end times?

Why would we not see these as Jews awaiting their Messiah?

Why not both?

 

[Waiting on him]

I've heard this argument regarding the Book of Joel before, Waiting; that it was written only in reference to the Jews. But Joel 2:28 starts with "And it shall come to pass afterward..." and then ends with, "and I will show wonders in the heavens and on earth; blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and terrible Day of the Lord comes." It THEN follows immediately with, "For behold, in those days, and at that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem..." (Joel 3:1).

Do you believe this is a reference to the return of Israel to their land in 1948? If so, this places the entirety of Joel 2:28 through Joel 3:1 in the time period stretching from 1948 until the time of the Battle of Armageddon (Joel 3:2). That means 2:28-31 will be fulfilled during this time as well, which would mean the church will still be here, and fulfilling these same prophecies just as they were doing during New Testament times.

Ephesians 4:8 KJV
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


https://tbibl.es/1KyI
Ephesians 4:8 KJV
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


[URL="https://tbibl.es/1KyI"]Tecarta Bible[/URL]

 

[marks]

This makes them wide open to whatever interpretations anyone deems fit to give them, and why not, since they are "not a firm foundation for doctrine"?

What's not a firm foundation to me is to say, Oil makes me think of the Holy Spirit, so that's what this must mean. Except that someone else says, oil makes me think of the Holy Spirit's annointing, so it must mean that.

Before Jesus spelled out the Parable of the Sower, he chastised the disciples for being so dim that He would have to.

Mark 4:13 "And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?"

Hm.

You are here giving justification for the entire church to be out in the dark on every parable but the ones He personally explained Himself.

I'm calling the church to follow the Word instead of their own imaginations.

I see this parable as something that many people come to, and find their theology and eschatology reflected in it.

If your thinking is more dispensational, you may tend to see the virgins as Jews. Others may see them as gentile Christians. The OSAS crowd won't see the 5 foolish as saved then lost, and the other side will.

So what is the arbiter of these? It has to be the Bible.

You can imagine anything you want about what the Bible says, but there is a certain thing that is Does say, and we do well so seek after that.

I'm sorry HIH, it seems to me that you do the same thing that so many do when they come to this parable. As you look into it, you see your theology and eschatology reflected in it, and this is what it means to you.

At least so it seems to me.

Are these really our only options, Wild flights of fancy, or ignorant darkness? What happened to, Scripture interprets Scripture?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

"For our lamps are gone out" suggests they had oil initially, yes?
Technically, ὅτι αἱ λαμπάδες ἡμῶν σβέννυνται = "for our lamps are going out."

"And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always." Ex 27:20

 

[amadeus]

Sorry bro..can't agree at all with you here.
They were VIRGIN = white robes and all that...they weren't 'second class' half christians that were not quite christians.

That is a reach.

Even so...!

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.
My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not at all.

I simply raise the bar on parables to what we should be doing with all Scripture.

LoL. You mean to the level where neither grammar nor language are critical anymore? <chuckling>

 

[amadeus]

The only assurance you’ll receive is Christ in you
THE BRIDEGROOM!

Even so:

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

 

[Hidden In Him]

Ephesians 4:8 KJV
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Tecarta Bible
Ephesians 4:8 KJV
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Tecarta Bible

Ok. Good verse. How you were applying it to our discussion though?

 

[amadeus]

Actually, for me, that kind of serious is how I find the real jewels. I mean, just anyone can look at a verse and say, I think this means that and that means this, but what does that do for us?

If it's all word association and morphing something to fit my idea of what the church looks like, or what the end times looks like, what good is it? What have we gained?

Much love!

In order to find the "real jewels" should we not go ahead and buy the whole field at whatever the cost and then we search for the treasure hid therein?

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field." Matt 13:44