Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen

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bbyrd009

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Well yes, He was obedient unto death. But I think He also had some help in it. I don't think He just killed Himself, LoL.

But what's this about what the RCC has made out of the talents parable? Not sure I follow you.
well, if you trace the ety of "talent" we consider them to be "natural abilities" now tks to the RCC, that's only like 400 years old i guess. Meaning the frame for the parable of the Talents has been warped to make it fit Christ, when that is really satan? Someone here pointed this out to me...forget who
talent (plural talents)

  1. A marked natural ability or skill. [from 15thc.]
now i still dunno @ the wicked tenants, but "Jesus cast out of the vineyard" suddenly does not sound right; but i guess it is
 
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Hidden In Him

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well, if you trace the ety of "talent" we consider them to be "natural abilities" now tks to the RCC, that's only like 400 years old i guess. Meaning the frame for the parable of the Talents has been warped to make it fit Christ, when that is really satan? Someone here pointed this out to me...forget who
talent (plural talents)

  1. A marked natural ability or skill. [from 15thc.]

So who said this interpretation was introduced by the RCC? Sounds like something the SDAs would say. :)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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well, if you trace the ety of "talent" we consider them to be "natural abilities" now tks to the RCC, that's only like 400 years old i guess. Meaning the frame for the parable of the Talents has been warped to make it fit Christ, when that is really satan? Someone here pointed this out to me...forget who
talent (plural talents)

  1. A marked natural ability or skill. [from 15thc.]
now i still dunno @ the wicked tenants, but "Jesus cast out of the vineyard" suddenly does not sound right; but i guess it is

Even if the talents are money...it still becomes questionable which is spoken of ...the natural or the Spiritual.

Judges 15:10-11
[10] And the men of Judah said, Why are ye come up against us? And they answered, To bind Samson are we come up, to do to him as he hath done to us. [11] Then three thousand men of Judah went to the top of the rock Etam, and said to Samson, Knowest thou not that the Philistines are rulers over us? what is this that thou hast done unto us? And he said unto them, As they did unto me, so have I done unto them.

“...to do to him as he hath done to us.”

“As they did unto me, so have I done unto them.”

Matthew 5:45-48
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How does this fit with the parables? Which do we hear vengeance (an eye for an eye) or mercy? Do they follow man’s model or the model presented by the Son?
 

Enoch111

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well, if you trace the ety of "talent" we consider them to be "natural abilities"...
Actually the talent was a measure of weight applied to precious metals (silver and gold). Today talents means natural abilities, but in view of Scripture and the spiritual gifts, it could also include spiritual gifts. And that parable has absolutely nothing to do with Satan.
 

Jay Ross

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What would you say are the messages He would preach today? Certainly there are more than one, and I notice you are strong on keeping the Sabbath. What is it He and His servants would (and thus should) be preaching today to bring forth the fruit of righteousness from His vineyard?

The same message that Christ brought during His first Advent. Christ came with the message of the Salvation Covenant, that was offered to Cain: -

Genesis 4:6-7: - 6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."​

Christ also pointed to this same Salvation Covenant when He said: -

Matthew 13:52: - 52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things that have been refreshed and yet still old from the time of Adam and Eve."​

God gave the following insight for Israel to act on: -

Daniel 9:24: -
24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
{After which, I will make the following to happen: -}
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

What was the sin that Israel had to end? It was the sin of idolatrous worship.

What was the consequence of not repenting of, and finishing with, their sin of Idolatry?

Then The second Commandment of the Ten would kick into play: -

Exodus 20:4-6: - 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.​

which is also expanded upon in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 8 where it describes what will happen to them if they do not follow God's ordinances for the Nation of Israel which also contains the Blessings that will if, while the visitation of their iniquities upon them, they repent.

Jeremiah speaks of the time that Israel will come to seek the Lord and the events that will occur around this same time.

Isaiah 58 also speaks of the fasting that God desires of Israel leading up to the time of the Sabbath Day/Age for all of mankind. During this time God will put a stop to the influence of the wicked heavenly hosts by locking them up for an extended time during this age, before they are released for a little while period to do their worst as if this is God's means of separating the Flock from the flock before He then separates the Sheep from the Goats.

We are also told by Christ, that Satan will also, during the Sabbath Day/Age, also have empowered his good and faithful servants to continue his oppression of the people of the earth such that they become distracted from the things of God during this age, before he returns for his last final fling.

How de we keep this Sabbath Day/Age of the Lord Holy?

For those that enter into the Last Age, by choosing to enter into a lasting relationship with God, on His Terms, during the time that His Everlasting Kingdom will be present on the earth. This Everlasting Kingdom will be establish at the time of Great upheaval and turmoil on the earth in our near future.

The same is also true for those who have come during the ages before the final age, to enter into a lasting relationship with God on His terms and conditions.

The choice to keep God's Sabbath Day/Age for mankind Holy is our choice during the next Age.

We do it by the circumcising of the flesh around our heart and choosing to worship only God, the Father.

Shalom

PS: - In the scriptures that I have quoted above, I have expanded the English translation of the scriptures to make the original intent clearer, by the addition of the words that have been coloured thus.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Actually the talent was a measure of weight applied to precious metals (silver and gold). Today talents means natural abilities, but in view of Scripture and the spiritual gifts, it could also include spiritual gifts. And that parable has absolutely nothing to do with Satan.

Matthew 25:27-30
[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Even if talent means silver or gold or natural talents(gifts): to change the natural talents(gifts) into spiritual gifts and then to kept the same ending of the parable with the natural lord without mercy, is deceiving.

All the parables: if we say the natural parable with man as its focus then becomes a spiritual parable for those who have ears to hear...but choose to keep the natural lord (bind him hand and foot and cast him out) and call it mercy, it is deceiving. The lord(flesh) of the natural is not the same Lord (Spirit).

Isaiah 58:6-7
[6] Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? [7] Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

The Pharisees would have heard exactly what they choose to hear. It was against them. And that is what they heard, their truth which infuriated them. They had never seen mercy. Do we want it to be our truth?
 
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Enoch111

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All the parables: if we say the natural parable with man as its focus then becomes a spiritual parable for those who have ears to hear...but choose to keep the natural lord (bind him hand and foot and cast him out) and call it mercy, it is deceiving. The lord(flesh) of the natural is not the same Lord (Spirit).
Actually this is in perfect harmony with Christ as the Lord.

Now please note carefully: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:...And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Lord does not -- and will not -- call the children of God *wicked*. That is a term reserved for the unsaved and the ungodly. So this person was nominally a Christian (and many apostates believe that they are Christians) and also supposedly serving the Lord (wicked clergymen and priests for example). So what is the fate of the unsaved and unconverted (Q) Outer darkness where the Lake of Fire is located, and where there will be eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

Hidden In Him

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Matthew 13:52: - 52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things that have been refreshed and yet still old from the time of Adam and Eve."

Jay, what on earth translation is this from?
PS: - In the scriptures that I have quoted above, I have expanded the English translation of the scriptures to make the original intent clearer, by the addition of the words that have been coloured thus.

Oh. I don't advise you do that. You are taking incredible liberties with the word of God. At the very least, it's kind of head-jarring. I could hardly finish reading the rest of your post, LoL.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden
 

VictoryinJesus

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Actually this is in perfect harmony with Christ as the Lord.

Now please note carefully: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:...And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Lord does not -- and will not -- call the children of God *wicked*. That is a term reserved for the unsaved and the ungodly. So this person was nominally a Christian (and many apostates believe that they are Christians) and also supposedly serving the Lord (wicked clergymen and priests for example). So what is the fate of the unsaved and unconverted (Q) Outer darkness where the Lake of Fire is located, and where there will be eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:27
[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Does it say “money” to the exchangers or not? John 2:14-16
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: [15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; [16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

If yes it does say money then...
Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
 
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Jay Ross

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Jay, what on earth translation is this from?


Oh. I don't advise you do that. You are taking incredible liberties with the word of God. At the very least, it's kind of head-jarring. I could hardly finish reading the rest of your post, LoL.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

I am sorry that you have not caught the significance of what I have posted. I look past the manner in which the translators render the source texts into English within the bias of their understanding and look at what the original language text might be saying. Sadly the translators haver already taken incredible liberties with the word of God.

What I provided in the Matt. 13:52 verse was an expansion of the NKJV which reads: -

Matt. 13:52: - 52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."​

and provided a better understanding for the Greek word καινὰ which is wrongly only translated as "new" and the Greek word παλαιά which is also wrongly translated as "old."

Now in the 13:52 verse, how many objects does the man, i.e. the scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven, bring out of his treasure? Only one object that has been refreshed but which is also very old from ancient times or does he bring out from his treasures two objects, one of which is new and one of which is old?

Now the word "things" has been inserted into the English translations and is not found in the original source text.

Now the English word "new" has been used for the Greek word " καινὰ - kaina " and it has the meaning of "refreshed like new" and not like neos which is new with respect to age, i.e. "brand" new or "newer". καινὰ appears only twice in the NT and it is found in Rev. 21:5 which reads: -

Revelation 21:5: - 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."​

Now does God abandons all that he had made previously or does he validate all that he had made previously by making it all like new again, i.e. He refreshes what he had made previously.

Also the English word "old" has been used for the Greek word " παλαιά palaia " and it has the meaning of old in the sense of being ancient from the beginning of mankind. παλαιά is also only found used twice in the New Testament and is found in 1 John 2:7: -

1 John 2:7: - 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.​

What is the time period that is being referred to in this verse? When is the "Beginning" for mankind with respect to God? Did it not begin with the creation of Adam and Eve?

So is your objection to my manner of writing a more accurate paraphrase of Matt. 13:52 really that bad a thing, simply, because as you say, it was jarring to your previously held understanding of that verse?

Would it have not been better for you to inform me that my post has cause you to need to meditate again on this verse to determine if you would come to the same conclusion as I have presented in my paraphrasing of this verse so that you had a basis for either agreeing or disagree with what I had posted.

Shalom
 

Hidden In Him

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καινὰ appears only twice in the NT and it is found in Rev. 21:5

?
Jay, καινα is the nominative/accusative plural neuter of καινός, which appears 44 times in the NT.
Now the English word "new" has been used for the Greek word " καινὰ - kaina " and it has the meaning of "refreshed like new" and not like neos which is new with respect to age, i.e. "brand" new or "newer".

:) It's used of the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven (Revelation 21:2). You believe the New Jerusalem will be "refreshed like new"?
So is your objection to my manner of writing a more accurate paraphrase of Matt. 13:52 really that bad a thing, simply, because as you say, it was jarring to your previously held understanding of that verse?

I think you are taking too many liberties, Jay, and you ought to be careful. But let's just leave it at that.

Maybe we can discuss things again sometime.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden
 

Jay Ross

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?
Jay, καινα is the nominative/accusative plural neuter of καινός, which appears 44 times in the NT.

Now the Biblehub website tells us that the Greek Root G-2537 is found 42 times embedded in 10 Greek words in the New Testament and that the number of times that these various Greek words appear in the NT is as follows: -

καινὰ 3 Occ.
καιναῖς 1 Occ.
καινή 6 Occ.
καινὴν 11 Occ.
καινῆς 3 Occ.
καινῷ 1 Occ.
καινὸν 10 Occ.
καινότερον 1 Occ.
καινοῦ 2 Occ.
καινούς 4 Occ.​

Now if we consider the link to Greek Concordance: καινὰ (kaina) -- 3 Occurrences then the Bible hub site tells us that καινὰ can be found in two verses, Matt 13:52 and Rev 21:5 and that καινά is only found in 2 Cor 5:17. Now in Matt 13:52 and Rev 21:5 only God is involved in the refurbishment whereas in 2 Cor 5:17 the person is also involved as God works with the person to bring about the refurbishment of the person.

It is a very fine differentiation between the nuances of this particular Greek word, but IMHO it is a very important distinction to make and is why I made the statement that this Greek word with the embedded G-2537 Greek root in it is only found twice in the NT.

:) It's used of the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven (Revelation 21:2). You believe the New Jerusalem will be "refreshed like new"?

My simple answer is Yes. Again the scholarly translators have taken the liberty to suggest that it is a "new" Jerusalem, because of our desire for a brand new form of relationship with Christ/God, but is God is the same Yesterday, today and tomorrow; will Jerusalem be "'Brand' New" and divorced from any connection to God's chosen people, the Israelites, or will the Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven the renewed/refurbished Jerusalem which is not divorced from the Israelites who are also God's chosen people.

The wording that is generally the "traditional" English translation expresses the classical replacement theology of our fathers in the "Christian" faith. It is subtle, but it is there.

My understanding of how Rev 21:2 should be paraphrased is as follows: -

Revelation 21:2: - 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, the Refurbished/Renewed Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

which in my humble opinion expresses the purposes of God, where their in neither Greek nor Jew but where both with hearts after the heart of their God are the coming down out of heaven in unity in their worship of God.

Shalom

PS: perhaps the utube video link may help you understand the difficulty we all face with our traditions, including me: -
It is best to watch it all as it does highlight the difficulties God is having reaching His people with His message.
 

Enoch111

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Does it say “money” to the exchangers or not?
Yes it does, but those exchangers were in the temple UNLAWFULLY. That does not mean there were no lawful exchangers outside the temple! And Christ is speaking about lawfully depositing money in a bank (which also exchanges currencies) and receiving interest. Of course, He gave it a spiritual application.

What Christ was saying in this parable is that He gives His servants gifts, abilities, and opportunities so that they produce results. And there are severe consequences for negligence.
 

ScottA

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Ok. So then how do you interpret the vineyard in v.15, which describes the Lord's crucifixion, "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him."
"They" are Israel, the "vineyard" is the world, and "him" is Christ. In other words: Israel killed Christ who came to save the world.
 

Hidden In Him

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"They" are Israel, the "vineyard" is the world, and "him" is Christ. In other words: Israel killed Christ who came to save the world.

But before the crucifixion Christ wasn't preaching to the world. He was at this point still preaching to the lost sheep of Israel. Same goes for the prophets (the "servants" whom God sent to the vineyard). They weren't sent to the world. They were sent exclusively to Israel.
 

bbyrd009

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So who said this interpretation was introduced by the RCC? Sounds like something the SDAs would say. :)
um, i think it was the timing? 15th c? Maybe combined with how the RCC teaches the parable? i seem to even recall a fairly direct ref for that, might come to me. Anyway it was someone here onsite, you could prolly search "parable talents" and zero in on it maybe. Search Results | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board are me referring to it mostly, it was...prolly most of a year ago now i guess, maybe the oct 2017 ref
 

bbyrd009

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Even if the talents are money
wadr imo that is virtually assured, as you can see from any ety of the term. What should be the more revealing here is how difficult it is to get ppl to lose this talents as natural abilities in Scripture idea?
it still becomes questionable which is spoken of ...the natural or the Spiritual.
imo the opening provides the frame there; "bc they were entering Jerusalem and the Apostles thought the kingdom was about to manifest" part, so imo the natural and spiritual are kind of being combined there, but that's just imo.
How does this fit with the parables?
not sure if they do, but wouldn't surprise me any either. How do you see them fitting?
Which do we hear vengeance (an eye for an eye) or mercy? Do they follow man’s model or the model presented by the Son?
indeed, but then our Sampson is Nazarite mythology about this same subject, "Rock of Etam" is a spiritual place--not a good place--and imo Sampson is...going to be unfairly abused here, after all Sampson was a Judge, but we are tempted to deem him like "evil" or something in this comparison, right. I dunno if that is the best idea?
 
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bbyrd009

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Actually the talent was a measure of weight applied to precious metals (silver and gold).
yes, ty
Today talents means natural abilities, but in view of Scripture and the spiritual gifts, it could also include spiritual gifts.
i would resist any attempt to make talents into anything other than money in Scripture, as that usage pretty obviously did not manifest until much later?
And that parable has absolutely nothing to do with Satan.
i'm persuaded to agree with you there, imo the point of the parable is to address "bc they were entering Jeru, and the Apostles thought the kingdom was about to appear." So not about satan per se i guess, more about their bad premises?
 

Hidden In Him

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Now the Biblehub website tells us that the Greek Root G-2537 is found 42 times embedded in 10 Greek words in the New Testament and that the number of times that these various Greek words appear in the NT is as follows: -

καινὰ 3 Occ.
καιναῖς 1 Occ.
καινή 6 Occ.
καινὴν 11 Occ.
καινῆς 3 Occ.
καινῷ 1 Occ.
καινὸν 10 Occ.
καινότερον 1 Occ.
καινοῦ 2 Occ.
καινούς 4 Occ.

Same word, 10 different declensions.
PS: perhaps the Youtube video link may help you understand the difficulty we all face with our traditions, including me: -

That's a cute video.

Jay, don't misunderstand. I don't have a problem with considering new ideas. I've had to unlearn many of the things I've been taught as a Christian, and replace them with new interpretations. It's just that I don't agree with you here is all.

Anyway, moving on for now.
Blessings