Pastor MacArthur and his Church lost to Satan today

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Giuliano

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I'm sorry, I'm not Trying to be dodgy, trying to be straightfoward.

If I shot someone to death, would this mean I was the one who chose when they would die? No. Life and death are in God's hands, and something fatal will not kill you if it's not His time for you to die. I know from experience, as well as my belief in the Scriptures.
Then God should not punish anyone for murder.

But I'm not to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger either, that's not a loving act.

We are to act in love to others, but even so, God chooses such things I think.
But if you point the gun and pull the trigger and the person dies, it was God's will? You could shoot him, but that didn't cause his death -- you blame God for it?

I will admit God can perform miracles to save lives, that's another story.
I'm not sure why you have such an issue with that passage in Isaiah. I didn't say this, God said this.
My problem lies with your take on it.

Do you believe Christians can die from Covid? Do you believe God works everything for good for those who love Him?
Of course, they can from it; but it doesn't mean God planned it; and it doesn't mean ministers should encourage reckless behavior. What would you say of a minister who had his congregation play Russian roulette? "We're going to do this today to see who God wants to die. Point the guns and pull the triggers. See who gets real bullets and who gets blanks." Such a minister would be lying if he claimed to love God -- he doesn't love his fellow man, so he is a liar if he claims to love God.

Don't put words in my mouth, like we're supposed to be wanting to die to avoid tribulation. That's not me.
You suggested it might be God's Will for His saints to die of Covid-19 so they escape tribulation. If it is, shouldn't you want to die as He wants?

But I don't question God's love or power, even as Christians sicken and die.

Much love!
I'm questioning how much some ministers care about their congregations. "Come to church. We desperately need your money at this time. Maybe you will catch Covid-19, but don't worry. If you catch it and die, it's what God wanted. Look on the bright side, you'll miss the tribulation." Talk about hard hearts.
 

marks

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What would you say of a minister who had his congregation play Russian roulette? "We're going to do this today to see who God wants to die. Point the guns and pull the triggers. See who gets real bullets and who gets blanks." Such a minister would be lying if he claimed to love God -- he doesn't love his fellow man, so he is a liar if he claims to love God.

Yeah.
 

marks

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I'm questioning how much some ministers care about their congregations. "Come to church. We desperately need your money at this time. Maybe you will catch Covid-19, but don't worry. If you catch it and die, it's what God wanted. Look on the bright side, you'll miss the tribulation." Talk about hard hearts.
Didn't MacArthur open his church because his congregation wanted him to?

?

But you're going to make it about MacArthur killing his flock for money.

I hope you find the answer you are looking for.

Much love!
 
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Giuliano

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MacArthur referenced the time the Apostle Paul spent in jail during his ministry, and said, "If they want to tuck me into jail, I'm open for a jail ministry. I've done a lot of other ministries and haven't had the opportunity to do that one, so, bring it on."

John MacArthur not worried about threats of jail for holding church services: "I'm open for a jail ministry ... bring it on"
Paul did not break the laws of the land, did he?

If MacArthur is jailed, I'll be waiting for an earthquake to bring down the prison he is in. That will tell us how much he is like Paul.
 

Giuliano

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Didn't MacArthur open his church because his congregation wanted him to?

?
So he said. Is he the leader or the follower? No true shepherd obeys his sheep. His sheep need his intelligence and love to guide them.

But you're going to make it about MacArthur killing his flock for money.

I hope you find the answer you are looking for.

Much love!
He's supposed to be worth about fourteen or fifteen million dollars. That might be a clue whether he is serving God or mammon.

There was an interesting case decades ago that got dismissed for lack of evidence; but MacArthur was "applying Biblical principles" when counselling a suicidal man. The man did finally kill himself.

FindLaw's California Court of Appeal case and opinions.

Pastor MacArthur admitted in his declaration that he provided spiritual and psychological counseling to Kenneth Nally after a suicide attempt made by Kenneth Nally in March 1979.   The excerpts of deposition transcripts included evidence indicating that Kenneth Nally was seen by a psychiatrist and various other physicians and that the church has referred its members to psychiatrists.   The excerpts of deposition transcripts and the declarations did not indicate whether Pastor MacArthur engaged in extreme and outrageous conduct, either intentionally or recklessly, or whether his counseling was a substantial factor in the causation of Kenneth Nally's suicide.   The evidence upon which Pastor MacArthur's motion for summary judgment was based therefore failed to establish the lack of a triable issue of fact as to plaintiffs' cause of action for wrongful death occurring as a result of intentional infliction of emotional distress.

In opposition to Pastor MacArthur's motion for summary judgment, plaintiffs introduced a declaration of Walter Nally in which it was stated that on March 31, 1979 (one or two days before the suicide), Kenneth Nally pointed to his arm, which he had injured in a recent suicide attempt, and said that “ ‘they [people at the church] told [him] that this was God's punishment.’ ”   On the Tuesday following Kenneth Nally's death, Pastor Rea told Walter Nally that this was not the first suicide of someone involved in the church and informed him that Kenneth Nally had been extensively counseled at the church by Pastor MacArthur.   Plaintiffs also introduced a declaration of a psychiatrist who, having reviewed the testimony elicited in various depositions taken in this litigation, stated that it was his opinion that Kenneth Nally suffered from severe mental illness prior to his death and that defendants increased Kenneth Nally's despair and anguish, thereby causing him to commit suicide.   Plaintiffs also introduced a deposition transcript excerpt in which Pastor MacArthur testified that “perhaps” he contributed to Kenneth Nally's depression.   Pastor MacArthur admitted in his declaration which was introduced in support of the motion that, at the time he counseled Kenneth Nally, he was aware of Kenneth Nally's suicidal tendencies.

There was an idea that suicide was sometimes used by God to take home a disobedient servant.

In opposition to the motion of Pastor Rea, Pastor Thomson, Pastor Cory, and Grace Community Church, plaintiffs introduced evidence that a tape by Pastor Thomson for a collection entitled “Principles of Biblical Counseling” contained the following statement:  “ ‘And the suicidal says, “I am under such tremendous pressure, now I've got to have to [sic ] pleasure of release!   Now!, I don't care about the future.”   That's characteristic of human nature.   So it is very characteristic of the suicidal that it is his fear of judgment that drives him into the death after which he will face that judgment, if he's an unbeliever.   And after which if he is a believer, he'll go to be with the Lord.   Yes, there'll be a loss of reward, but because of the Lord and his grace he'll go to be with the Lord.   In fact, suicide is one of the ways that the Lord takes home a disobedient believer.   We read that in the Bible. That death is one of the ways that the Lord deals with us.
This kind of compassionless attitude is not quite as bad as Jim Jones having his followers drink poisoned Kool-Aid at Jonestown, but it still strikes me as cultlike. But then maybe some people would argue Jones was right: Maybe it was better for his followers to die from drinking poison. They died -- so it must have been God's Will, right?
 

historyb

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Didn't MacArthur open his church because his congregation wanted him to?

Yep, in fact the Church was still locked down and people showed up. MacArthur had nothing to do with that, people wanted Church
 

amadeus

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Yep, in fact the Church was still locked down and people showed up. MacArthur had nothing to do with that, people wanted Church

Church... or the Word of the Lord?

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst." Amos 8:11-13
 

marks

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Fellowship. Personal presence. That's what we want I think!

:)
 

historyb

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Church... or the Word of the Lord?

Nope, Church. They could get preaching online or read a passage and reflect on it, these people wanted more as @marks said fellowship and that you can't get at home, online only face to face. Even though there is nothing at your guys Protestant evangelical churches but fellowship, fellowship is still needed. Christianity isn't a lone ranger religion, it is a community religion.
 
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amadeus

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Nope, Church. They could get preaching online or read a passage and reflect on it, these people wanted more as @marks said fellowship and that you can't get at home, online only face to face. Even though there is nothing at your guys Protestant evangelical churches but fellowship, fellowship is still needed. Christianity isn't a lone ranger religion, it is a community religion.

Nothing but fellowship in what you call "Protestant evangelical churches"? Fellowship can be a good thing, but without the Word of God [Jesus is the Word of God] in the midst, it is not working as part of the Body of Christ. It is just another social gathering. I have been to lots of gatherings of people that called themselves church, but Jesus was not there. On the other hand, I have been to other gatherings where Jesus was right there in the midst because they were in His name and then it was a functioning part of the Body of Christ!

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:19-20
 

historyb

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Nothing but fellowship in what you call "Protestant evangelical churches"? Fellowship can be a good thing, but without the Word of God [Jesus is the Word of God] in the midst, it is not working as part of the Body of Christ. It is just another social gathering. I have been to lots of gatherings of people that called themselves church, but Jesus was not there. On the other hand, I have been to other gatherings where Jesus was right there in the midst because they were in His name and then it was a functioning part of the Body of Christ!

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:19-20

Well Protestant evangelicals church are little more than social clubs, there is no Body and Blood in Protestant evangelical churches and in effect they have walked away from Christ as evidenced in St. John 6:50-66. Even with that we are not really made to be alone so someday like Pastor MacArthur I am backing fully.
 

amadeus

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Well Protestant evangelicals church are little more than social clubs, there is no Body and Blood in Protestant evangelical churches and in effect they have walked away from Christ as evidenced in St. John 6:50-66. Even with that we are not really made to be alone so someday like Pastor MacArthur I am backing fully.

You keep using the word, 'evangelical', but I really don't know what you mean by it. Are some Protestant churches not evangelical? Could you explain the difference you understand between those that are and those that are not so we will hopefully communicate a little better. My only experience as a 'church member has been as in Catholicism (pre-Vatican II), the Oneness Jesus Only (e.g. UPC] and then finally in a non Oneness, non-Trinitarian group. For the past two years, I have not been a member of any formal church group. I have never belonged to any of the larger mainstream Protestant churches [Pentecostal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.]

I very much believe in what Jesus taught in John 6:47ff, although most churches with their communion activities, Protestant or Catholic essentially disagree with my understanding of that teaching.
 

Josho

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Paul did not break the laws of the land, did he?

If MacArthur is jailed, I'll be waiting for an earthquake to bring down the prison he is in. That will tell us how much he is like Paul.

Well he would have to cast aside his doubts first wouldn't he? ;)
 

historyb

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You keep using the word, 'evangelical', but I really don't know what you mean by it. Are some Protestant churches not evangelical? Could you explain the difference you understand between those that are and those that are not so we will hopefully communicate a little better. My only experience as a 'church member has been as in Catholicism (pre-Vatican II), the Oneness Jesus Only (e.g. UPC] and then finally in a non Oneness, non-Trinitarian group. For the past two years, I have not been a member of any formal church group. I have never belonged to any of the larger mainstream Protestant churches [Pentecostal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.]

I very much believe in what Jesus taught in John 6:47ff, although most churches with their communion activities, Protestant or Catholic essentially disagree with my understanding of that teaching.

evangelical is any denomination like Baptist, AOG, non denominational churches, people who say I don't go to church I just follow the Bible, etc. Any person who does not follow Traditional Christianity and partake of the Body and Blood of Christ is evangelical. Evangelicals which this forum is made up of primarily are the ones in St. John 6:53-55 (So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him") who walked away and refuse to take the Body and Blood of Christ. You are evangelical by your own admission by not belonging to any church which falls under non denominational people who say I don't go to church I just follow the Bible.
 

historyb

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@historyb

Wouldn't the Charismatic Epicospal Church be considered Evangelical?

No, we are Traditional. We believe in the Real Presence, the Church as authority, pray to Saints, rely on the Church Fathers, use a Liturgy, Holy Water. While we are three streams and evangelical is there, it means for us to tell others not go by the Bible only :)
 

amadeus

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evangelical is any denomination like Baptist, AOG, non denominational churches, people who say I don't go to church I just follow the Bible, etc. Any person who does not follow Traditional Christianity and partake of the Body and Blood of Christ is evangelical. Evangelicals which this forum is made up of primarily are the ones in St. John 6:53-55 (So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him") who walked away and refuse to take the Body and Blood of Christ. You are evangelical by your own admission by not belonging to any church which falls under non denominational people who say I don't go to church I just follow the Bible.
I have gone to [attended physically] 'church' very faithfully most of my life. Two years ago an event occurred where I have been attending for more than 10 years. After that event I was actually visiting various church meetings in my community regularly to see if God had another place for me when Covid 19 raised its nasty head and put a stop to my visits. With my wife's immune system being severely compromised and my own age at nearly 77 making me vulnerable, I likely won't find a place to call home for worship and fellowship. But... I won't limit God in this. If He wants me in another congregation I am open always to Him.

As to the flesh and blood of Jesus, I eat His flesh and drink His blood daily and have done so for many years 7 days a week.
It is where I start my every morning. Without it I would be dead indeed! Give God the glory!
 
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