Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's at the second coming. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul I believe teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

One of the reasons this verse is more controversial than it need be can be credited to our translation. I know many modern translations say "they came to life", and that implies they were bodily resurrected then lived and reigned with Christ for ONE thousand years. I believe the translators that say they "lived again" or "came to life" have translated their bias, intentionally or not, into the Bible. Here are five translations that I believe have translated the verse without adding the saints had to come to life again, then they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Using these translations makes it easier to prove what you are saying. Why would John write these martyred saints must come to life again since in Christ faithful saints NEVER die? Even though the body of all humans is destined to die, whoever dies in faith have eternal spirit life through the Spirit of Christ in them. This is especially true when we remember that none shall be physically resurrected to life again until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. So none can come to physical life again to live and reign with Christ on this earth for ONE thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (YLT) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

Revelation 20:4 (WEB) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (DBY) And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Revelation 20:4 (ASV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Sometimes when you want to get it right, translations do make a difference.

 

[BlessedPeace]

What evidence do we have that Paul read those particular revelations of Apostle John of Patmos?

 

[Marty fox]

What evidence do we have that Paul read those particular revelations of Apostle John of Patmos?

We don't know or even need any it has no bearing on what Paul taught.

 

[BlessedPeace]

We don't know or even need any it has no bearing on what Paul taught.

Oddly, that claim vacated the OP.

Thank you.

 

[Marty fox]

Oddly, that claim vacated the OP.

Thank you.

We don't even know if Paul stated it after Revelation was written or not my point is that Paul was showing that it was a current reality when he was alive.

God reveals the same things to different people at different times.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul I believe teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

How misunderstanding of God's word can ppl be.

This is NOT rightly dividing of the word of God ,rather it is clinging to heretical teachings by man.
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope.

If any buy into this lie, I ask , THEN WHEREIN IS YOUR HOPE ?

 

[Marty fox]

How misunderstanding of God's word can ppl be.

This is NOT rightly dividing of the word of God ,rather it is clinging to heretical teachings by man.
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope.

If any buy into this lie, I ask , THEN WHEREIN IS YOUR HOPE ?

I used the very same words as John and Paul so were am I wrong?

Instead of just your preconceived personal views why don’t you try to show me from scripture were I was wrong

 

[grafted branch]

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul I believe teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Hey Marty, I don’t know what the percentage is of believers that are literally beheaded vs those who die other ways including natural causes but I’m pretty sure it’s very low. Many people try to used the word “beheaded” to mean martyrdom in general but that doesn’t fit the definition.

The word “beheaded” is only used this once in Revelation 20:4 and it means to cut off with an ax. It seems strange and without precedent that a word such as this would be used if general martyrdom was in view.

As far as being literally beheaded, I think John the Baptist is the only person in the Bible that was killed this way. John the Baptist seems to be a type or symbol, he obviously preceded Jesus in his death so this would be a candidate for what’s in view by the use of the word “beheaded”.

I’ve also seen several different views such as “beheaded”means circumcision of the heart or that it’s referring to the ax that is laid to the root of the trees in Matthew 3:10 which goes along with Messiah (the head) being cut off in Daniel 9:26.

 

[covenantee]

How misunderstanding of God's word can ppl be.

This is NOT rightly dividing of the word of God ,rather it is clinging to heretical teachings by man.
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope.

If any buy into this lie, I ask , THEN WHEREIN IS YOUR HOPE ?

The objective of the counter-Reformation was to counter the Reformation declaration of the apostate papacy as the prevailing antichrist of the era. To that end, Alcasar's preterism ascribed said antichrist to Nero; and Francisco Ribera, the father of the futurism which dispensationalism embraces, ascribed it to a conjured figure at the end of time.

Neither had anything to do with the Scriptural declaration of the reality of our spiritual kingdom reign in Christ.

 

[Marty fox]

Hey Marty, I don’t know what the percentage is of believers that are literally beheaded vs those who die other ways including natural causes but I’m pretty sure it’s very low. Many people try to used the word “beheaded” to mean martyrdom in general but that doesn’t fit the definition.

The word “beheaded” is only used this once in Revelation 20:4 and it means to cut off with an ax. It seems strange and without precedent that a word such as this would be used if general martyrdom was in view.

As far as being literally beheaded, I think John the Baptist is the only person in the Bible that was killed this way. John the Baptist seems to be a type or symbol, he obviously preceded Jesus in his death so this would be a candidate for what’s in view by the use of the word “beheaded”.

I’ve also seen several different views such as “beheaded”means circumcision of the heart or that it’s referring to the ax that is laid to the root of the trees in Matthew 3:10 which goes along with Messiah (the head) being cut off in Daniel 9:26.

Ironically Paul was beheaded

It would have to mean being martyred as it wouldn‘t seem fair that someone literally would raise back to life for being beheaded but not someone burned to death for Jesus. That’s another reason that it can’t be literal

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The objective of the counter-Reformation was to counter the Reformation declaration of the apostate papacy as the prevailing antichrist of the era. To that end, Alcasar's preterism ascribed said antichrist to Nero; and Francisco Ribera, the father of the futurism which dispensationalism embraces, ascribed it to a conjured figure at the end of time.

Neither had anything to do with the Scriptural declaration of the reality of our spiritual kingdom reign in Christ.

So are you a full preterist or a partial one as is Marty?

It is good getting to know where ppl post from by their ??? doctrines.

 

[grafted branch]

Ironically Paul was beheaded

It would have to mean being martyred as it wouldn‘t seem fair that someone literally would raise back to life for being beheaded but not someone burned to death for Jesus. That’s another reason that it can’t be literal

What about believers who die of natural causes? Are they just not being depicted in Revelation 20:4?

 

[covenantee]

So are you a full preterist or a partial one as is Marty?

It is good getting to know where ppl post from by their ??? doctrines.

What relevance does that have to this discussion?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The relevancy...... is of beliefs.

Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the first century. Preterists believe that the dating of the book of Revelation is of vital importance and that it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Marty believes this and looks through the lense of the fulfillment of Revelation, whether in whole or part, and may also believe Amil.
Do you also ?

In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around 70 AD when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and the Olivet discourse, rather than on the Book of Revelation. Most preterists apply much of the symbolism in Revelation to Rome, the Caesars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.

Disclaimer: I do not hold to this erroneous doctrine and only seek to understand another's pov ( Quotes on preterism from online)

Btw, you addressed me ,not I you !

 

[covenantee]

The relevancy...... is of beliefs.

Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the first century. Preterists believe that the dating of the book of Revelation is of vital importance and that it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Marty believes this and looks through the lense of the fulfillment of Revelation, whether in whole or part, and may also believe Amil.
Do you also ?

In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around 70 AD when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and the Olivet discourse, rather than on the Book of Revelation. Most preterists apply much of the symbolism in Revelation to Rome, the Caesars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.

Disclaimer: I do not hold to this erroneous doctrine and only seek to understand another's pov ( Quotes on preterism from online)

Btw, you addressed me ,not I you !

Thanks for confirming the irrelevance of preterism to this discussion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day.

Really? I never realized that some Premillennialists have that presupposition! As a Premill, I certainly don't have that presupposition! I thought the Millennium was associated with the Sabbath Day, in accord with the Millennial-Day Theory.

But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Well, obviously Premills do not make this connection. I personally believe that Christians are immediately made "alive with Christ in heaven" the moment we swear on oath to Christ, making him our Lord. We then are given his Sprit as an eternal possession, which qualifies us to partake of his heavenly gifts.

I don't think, personally, this has anything to do with a future Millennial Reign. Our "reign" today is certainly not what our "future reign" will be. We are just benefiting from Christ today in a way that falls short of what it will be in the consummation of all things.

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

I see nothing wrong with focusing on a "physical resurrection," as opposed to our being spiritually "raised up with Christ" in the spiritual, metaphorical sense. In fact, the primary importance of the resurrection is "physical."

The Church has been Amillennial for a couple of thousand years. The Premillennial belief was early and late in Christian history. We can believe the same things about being "raised up in Christ" today. What will happen in the future is on the speculative side--we just have to maintain an actual physical hope, as I see it. Otherwise, we only have a metaphorical, symbolic hope, which is not enough for me.

The big difference between Amill and Premill is, I think, about whether God will literally restore the nation Israel in the Millennial Age. Those who don't think so find no necessity for a Millennial Age. There will be neither Israel nor nations. Premill thinks the other way, finding Israel and nations critical in the fulfillment of God's literal promises to Abraham. We have to decide according to our best effort.

 

[Marty fox]

So are you a full preterist or a partial one as is Marty?

It is good getting to know where ppl post from by their ??? doctrines.

FYI I’m a partial preterist

 

[Marty fox]

What about believers who die of natural causes? Are they just not being depicted in Revelation 20:4?

Yes they are just not depicted in that verse but the result is the same for them

 

[L.A.M.B.]

FYI I’m a partial preterist

Yes I remember you saying so a year ago.
Thanks for clarifying