Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Mr E]

 

[Mr E]

One of the reasons this verse is more controversial than it need be can be credited to our translation. I know many modern translations say "they came to life", and that implies they were bodily resurrected then lived and reigned with Christ for ONE thousand years. I believe the translators that say they "lived again" or "came to life" have translated their bias, intentionally or not, into the Bible. Here are five translations that I believe have translated the verse without adding the saints had to come to life again, then they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Using these translations makes it easier to prove what you are saying. Why would John write these martyred saints must come to life again since in Christ faithful saints NEVER die? Even though the body of all humans is destined to die, whoever dies in faith have eternal spirit life through the Spirit of Christ in them. This is especially true when we remember that none shall be physically resurrected to life again until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. So none can come to physical life again to live and reign with Christ on this earth for ONE thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (YLT) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

Revelation 20:4 (WEB) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (DBY) And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Revelation 20:4 (ASV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Sometimes when you want to get it right, translations do make a difference.

Isn't this eye witness testimony, recorded in Matthew's account?

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul I believe teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

(1) We believe that God created a body for Adam to live in. Adam is supposed to be body & soul | spirit. Adam was not supposed to die, and death is the enemy of God, the last enemy to be destroyed (though it has already been defeated by Christ's death and resurrection), just like Satan will be destroyed (though his power over death has already been defeated by Christ's death and resurrection).

We don't live and reign with Christ 'spiritually'. The natural body that dies will be raised a spiritual body, and it's referring to the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns. The only place in the entire New Testament where you will find a reference to a spiritual body is in 1 Corinthians 15:44. That's the only place:
​

-- "It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:44.

(2) All authority on heaven and earth has been delivered into Christ's hands, but God has put nothing into subjection to us. Only Christ reigns now. We are not reigning with Him. We serve Him and one another now, but no one serves us.

(3) There is no "Back to the Future" time machine in Revelation 20:4-6. The beast that ascended from the bottomless pit cannot have caused anyone who refused to worship it or receive its mark to be beheaded before the beast ascended from the bottomless pit.

(4) We do not believe the beast has ascended from the bottomless pit yet *

* We may (or may not) be seeing the beginning of its rise now, with the shift in world alliances threatening to upset the balance of power in favor of a new beast from the Middle East.
​

Finally, those who John saw living in Revelation 20:4 were living in their bodies (zao) after they had been "beheaded" (whatever the Greek word pelekízō means) for their refusal to worship the beast, and John called it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).

 

[rwb]

Hey Marty, I don’t know what the percentage is of believers that are literally beheaded vs those who die other ways including natural causes but I’m pretty sure it’s very low. Many people try to used the word “beheaded” to mean martyrdom in general but that doesn’t fit the definition.

The word “beheaded” is only used this once in Revelation 20:4 and it means to cut off with an ax. It seems strange and without precedent that a word such as this would be used if general martyrdom was in view.

As far as being literally beheaded, I think John the Baptist is the only person in the Bible that was killed this way. John the Baptist seems to be a type or symbol, he obviously preceded Jesus in his death so this would be a candidate for what’s in view by the use of the word “beheaded”.

I’ve also seen several different views such as “beheaded”means circumcision of the heart or that it’s referring to the ax that is laid to the root of the trees in Matthew 3:10 which goes along with Messiah (the head) being cut off in Daniel 9:26.

The Greek word defined 'beheaded' in Rev 20 is not the same word used to define the 'beheading' of John the Baptist. The Greek word that describes the literal beheading of John, means physically having the head cut off, but the Greek word that describes those beheaded in Rev 20 is translated from another word that appears to mean other forms for causing death not necessarily limited to decapitation. IMO John is speaking of those who had kept the faith until they were martyred.

If you read Heb 11 the author writes of the various forms of martyrdom the faithful saints of Old had to endure, which includes being sawn asunder. I believe the point John is making is that all who are martyred for their faith are still alive after they had physically died believing.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes they are just not depicted in that verse but the result is the same for them

Isn’t this damaging to your argument though?

If Ephesians 2:4-6, Colossians 3:1, and Romans 5:17 are all talking about a current reality for people who are alive and if Revelation 20:4 is only depicting those who are physically martyred then that’s a leap.
I think your argument would be much stronger if you could connect those who are beheaded to those who are currently alive.

Revelation 20:5 the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished <5055>.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired <5055> Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

Both the dead live and Satan is loosed at the same time. I wouldn’t think you see unsaved dead people coming to life at the same time Satan is loosed, so why does it say the dead live after the thousand years and not after the little season?

 

[rwb]

Isn't this eye witness testimony, recorded in Matthew's account?

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The verse does not say the soldiers that witnessed the renting of the veil and the earthquake with rocks being rent in half were witnesses of what happened three days later. It was AFTER Christ's resurrection the saints arose from graves and went into the holy city, heavenly Jerusalem, and appeared to many, which would have been the multitude of hosts in heaven.

Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If these were the same soldiers assigned to guard the tomb of Christ, they could have witnessed the empty tomb, but how could they witness the many bodies of the saints which had died physically being raised from the graves since there is no evidence to my knowledge of a mass physical resurrection of physical bodies of saints going into Jerusalem and appearing to many. Who/where are these many they appeared to? The physical resurrection of Lazarus was so widely known and spoken of that the chiefs priests and Pharisees sought to kill Lazarus again. He was only one man with living witnesses of his resurrection to life after physical death.

 

[grafted branch]

The Greek word defined 'beheaded' in Rev 20 is not the same word used to define the 'beheading' of John the Baptist. The Greek word that describes the literal beheading of John, means physically having the head cut off, but the Greek word that describes those beheaded in Rev 20 is translated from another word that appears to mean other forms for causing death not necessarily limited to decapitation. IMO John is speaking of those who had kept the faith until they were martyred.

If you read Heb 11 the author writes of the various forms of martyrdom the faithful saints of Old had to endure, which includes being sawn asunder. I believe the point John is making is that all who are martyred for their faith are still alive after they had physically died believing.

What is the source you’re are using to determine the meaning of beheaded in Revelation 20:4? Strongs?

 

[rwb]

We don't live and reign with Christ 'spiritually'. The natural body that dies will be raised a spiritual body, and it's referring to the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns.

Then why does Paul write that when the natural body of saints dies, it is raised a spiritual body in heaven? And why does Solomon write that when man dies, their spirit returns to God who gave it? And what does Christ mean when He promises that whoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die? Christ said this at the same time He would be raising Lazarus from physical death to life again.

 

[Marty fox]

(1) We believe that God created a body for Adam to live in. Adam is supposed to be body & soul | spirit. Adam was not supposed to die, and death is the enemy of God, the last enemy to be destroyed (though it has already been defeated by Christ's death and resurrection), just like Satan will be destroyed (though his power over death has already been defeated by Christ's death and resurrection).

We don't live and reign with Christ 'spiritually'. The natural body that dies will be raised a spiritual body, and it's referring to the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns. The only place in the entire New Testament where you will find a reference to a spiritual body is in 1 Corinthians 15:44. That's the only place:
​

-- "It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:44.

(2) All authority on heaven and earth has been delivered into Christ's hands, but God has put nothing into subjection to us. Only Christ reigns now. We are not reigning with Him. We serve Him and one another now, but no one serves us.

(3) There is no "Back to the Future" time machine in Revelation 20:4-6. The beast that ascended from the bottomless pit cannot have caused anyone who refused to worship it or receive its mark to be beheaded before the beast ascended from the bottomless pit.

(4) We do not believe the beast has ascended from the bottomless pit yet *

* We may (or may not) be seeing the beginning of its rise now, with the shift in world alliances threatening to upset the balance of power in favor of a new beast from the Middle East.
​

Finally, those who John saw living in Revelation 20:4 were living in their bodies (zao) after they had been "beheaded" (whatever the Greek word pelekízō means) for their refusal to worship the beast, and John called it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).

Well I believe that it has happened but to your first statement how would you explain what Paul says about reigning now

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

I didn’t claim that any serves us the reigning is spiritual not physical

 

[Marty fox]

Isn’t this damaging to your argument though?

If Ephesians 2:4-6, Colossians 3:1, and Romans 5:17 are all talking about a current reality for people who are alive and if Revelation 20:4 is only depicting those who are physically martyred then that’s a leap.
I think your argument would be much stronger if you could connect those who are beheaded to those who are currently alive.

Revelation 20:5 the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished <5055>.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired <5055> Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

Both the dead live and Satan is loosed at the same time. I wouldn’t think you see unsaved dead people coming to life at the same time Satan is loosed, so why does it say the dead live after the thousand years and not after the little season?

What I am saying is that we live and reign with Christ spiritually now weather we are physically dead or alive

Revelation 20:4 is just showing that we still reign even after physical death

 

[rwb]

What is the source you’re are using to determine the meaning of beheaded in Revelation 20:4? Strongs?

Yes. The word defined beheaded is derived from a word that means more than beheading. It indicates martyrdom in general through calamity and affliction, or smiting. The same word 'beheaded' is derived from is also used "was smitten".

BEHEADED - Rev 20:4

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3990. πελεκίζω pelekizo (pelekízō)
Search for G3990 in KJVSL; in KJV.
πελεκίζω pelekízō, pel-ek-id'-zo
from a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe); to chop off (the head), i.e. truncate:—behead.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4141. πλήσσω plesso (plḗssō)
Search for G4141 in KJVSL; in KJV.
πλήσσω plḗssō, place'-so apparently another form of G4111 (through the idea of flattening out); to pound, i.e. (figuratively) to inflict with (calamity):—smite. Compare G5180.

Revelation 8:12 (KJVSL) And καί the fourth τέταρτος angel ἄγγελος sounded σαλπίζω, and καί the third part τρίτος of the sun ἥλιος was smitten πλήσσω, and καί the third part τρίτος of the moon σελήνη, and καί the third part τρίτος of the stars ἀστήρ; so as ἵνα the third part τρίτος of them αὐτός was darkened σκοτίζω, and καί the day ἡμέρα shone φαίνω not μή for a third part τρίτος of it αὐτός, and καί the night νύξ likewise ὁμοίως.

 

[Marty fox]

Thanks nice song I haven’t heard it before

 

[grafted branch]

What I am saying is that we live and reign with Christ spiritually now weather we are physically dead or alive

Revelation 20:4 is just showing that we still reign even after physical death

But insisting the souls seen by John are people who have physically died creates the problem of the rest of the dead living again when Satans little season starts.

 

[Zao is life]

Then why does Paul write that when the natural body of saints dies, it is raised a spiritual body in heaven?

The only place in the entire New Testament where you will find a reference to a spiritual body is in 1 Corinthians 15:44. That's the only place:

-- "It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:44.

.. and it says nothing about "in heaven".

The spirits of humans (the sons of Adam) are spirits. They do not have their own bodies. That would be a separate creation to the body, soul and spirit that God created Adam with.

Adam was created body and soul, and the Spirit of God breathed eternal life into him.

Death of the body is death. God did not intend for Adam to die. There is no controversy with this fact and what Solomon said:

And why does Solomon write that when man dies, their spirit returns to God who gave it?

There is no controversy with the above fact and what Solomon said.

ewr,

I don't know why I bother to reply to your questions when you ask the same questions that I already replied to in other threads.

Maybe this time you will actually read my reply to your argument, which you express in the form of a question below:

And what does Christ mean when He promises that whoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die? Christ said this at the same time He would be raising Lazarus from physical death to life again.

It's because, FIRSTLY, immortality is in Christ alone:

-- "God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

-- "The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." -- John 1:2 & 4.

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light,

whom no human has ever seen

or is able to see.

To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

And He alone possesses the keys of death and hades:

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

The Word which says,

-- "Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." -- Genesis 2:17,

implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

If we do not abide in the Word of God, then we will die.

"You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning:

-- "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

There is no controversy between all the above facts and Jesus telling Martha that whoever is alive in the body AND believes in Him shall never die:

-- "Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the resurrection of the body [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection of the body and the the Life in the body [zōḗ]!

He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [zōḗ].”

-- "The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." -- John 1:2 & 4.

-- And whoever is alive in the body [zōḗ] AND believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? -- John 11:24-26.

 

[Zao is life]

What I am saying is that we live and reign with Christ spiritually now weather we are physically dead or alive

The Bible does not teach that we reign with Christ spiritually. My post #34 shows exactly where Jesus and the Bible explains it to you. You're misinterpreting the gospel, IMO.

Revelation 20:4 is just showing that we still reign even after physical death

No, it isn't.

 

[ScottA]

How misunderstanding of God's word can ppl be.

This is NOT rightly dividing of the word of God ,rather it is clinging to heretical teachings by man.
Preterism was first expounded by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter-Reformation. The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope.

If any buy into this lie, I ask , THEN WHEREIN IS YOUR HOPE ?

That is not a proper or accurate definition of Preterist beliefs.

The Preterists believed that Christ had already returned (past tense) and that it was a done deal, meaning that since then everyone else has missed His return. Paul addressed that, and also explained what is actually true, first breaking down the return of Christ into two groups (the dead in Christ, and the living in Christ (i.e. "we who are alive and remain"), then clarified, saying "but"--"but each one (individual) in his own order" or time. Which means, yes the Preterists were wrong in believing Christ had already returned as if it was a done deal--because according to Paul--it's not done until every"one" comes in "his own order" or time, even unto the end of days.

So, no, Marty has not claimed a "Preterist" belief, but it reiterating Paul's correct clarification of what is actually true. The point is--most of Christendom is, and has been, wrong in believing that the return of Christ is not an ongoing event of "each one (individual) in his own order" since Christ went to the Father and continuing until the end of days.

 

[Marty fox]

The Bible does not teach that we reign with Christ spiritually. My post #34 shows exactly where Jesus and the Bible explains it to you. You're misinterpreting the gospel, IMO.



No, it isn't.

Reread the biblical verses in the OP again I am only posting what Paul wrote

 

[Zao is life]

Reread the biblical verses in the OP again I am only posting what Paul wrote

You're posting your own private interpretation of what Paul wrote. Giving what Paul wrote a meaning it does not have.

That's not "only posting what Paul wrote".

On the other hand, I'm not privately interpreting anything I wrote in post #34. You should reread it.

 

[Marty fox]

But insisting the souls seen by John are people who have physically died creates the problem of the rest of the dead living again when Satans little season starts.

How so?

The rest of the dead are the ones spiritually dead the unsaved who have died and come back at the throne judgement day

There are two sets of thousand Years one the binding and one the reigning. The binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

We don’t reign because satan is bound we reign because of Jesus

 

[Marty fox]

You're posting your own private interpretation of what Paul wrote. Giving what Paul wrote a meaning it does not have.

That's not "only posting what Paul wrote".

On the other hand, I'm not privately interpreting anything I wrote in post #34. You should reread it.

Paul wrote that we are currently seatEd in heaven with Jesus and Paul wrote that we reign in life now