Paul didn't write Hebrews

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marks

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I'm not sure what you mean by *ducted* them since there was no duct tape at that time to duct them. Did you mean "dictated" them? If so a writer can dictate his words to a secretary or stenographer, but the words are those of the writer.

And for you to deny that Paul wrote any epistles is to deny the veracity of the New Testament. Where do Christians come up with such crazy ideas? Paul definitely wrote Hebrews and again I do not understand why people wish to deny this.

Hi Enoch,

It's interesting to me when you say, "why people wish to deny this", as if I have some desire to discredit the authorship of Hebrews. Is that what you think about my posts? Truly? And if not, why speak as if it were so?

It's not my desire actually.

What Is my desire is to take every statement of Scripture as fully true, with no contradictions. I find that if we say Paul wrote Hebrews, then there is a contradiction.

So rather than discredit the authorship that isn't even stated within the text of Scripture, that's not on my radar at all, instead, I just want to give credit to what is stated, without the need for any kind of mental sleight of hand to make it work.

Much love!
 
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marks

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We know that Mark was written first.
Mathew copied from him.
It's pretty much accepted that Hebrews is unknown although I think we all refer to Paul when mentioning that book.

In my small group we took a vote when we came to Hebrews, and "Written by Paul" won over "Not written by Paul", so thereafter, we referred to the writer as Presumably Paul.

:p
 
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Stan B

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I think Hebrews was written for the purpose of both instructing Christians, but also evangelizing Jews.

Curious, what is your basis in saying that Matthew and Hebrews were written in Hebrew?

Follow up question, does this mean than they were then translated by someone other than the original writer? Or re-written in Greek by the original writer?

One more . . . which is inspired, if written in Hebrew, the original Hebrew, or the Greek translation?

Much love!


I don't know where I got the idea that Matthew and Hebrews were originally written in Hebrew. It is just something I have subscribed to for the last 60 years. With regard to Hebrews, which is amongst the five books of the Bible designated as "The Jewish-Christian Epistles: Hebrews, James First and Second Peter and Jude" according to the C.I. Schofield's preface to these epistles. Hebrews is included by Athanasius as an epistle of Paul.

Irenaeus was of the opinion that Matthew issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. Origen held that Matthew was prepared for the converts from Judaism and published in the Hebrew language”. and Eusebius declared that “Matthew had begun by preaching to the Hebrews, and when he made up his mind to go to others too, he committed his own Gospel to writing in his native tongue [Aramaic]"

So there are three different options out there: Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Take your pick! :)
 
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marks

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I don't know where I got the idea that Matthew and Hebrews were originally written in Hebrew. It is just something I have subscribed to for the last 60 years. With regard to Hebrews, which is amongst the five books of the Bible designated as "The Jewish-Christian Epistles: Hebrews, James First and Second Peter and Jude" according to the C.I. Schofield's preface to these epistles. Hebrews is included by Athanasius as an epistle of Paul.

Irenaeus was of the opinion that Matthew issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. Origen held that Matthew was prepared for the converts from Judaism and published in the Hebrew language”. and Eusebius declared that “Matthew had begun by preaching to the Hebrews, and when he made up his mind to go to others too, he committed his own Gospel to writing in his native tongue [Aramaic]"

So there are three different options out there: Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Take your pick! :)

I pick Greek, as a matter of my faith, as I believe that God has preserved His Word for me.

Much love!
 

Taken

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OK.

Let me be more precise.

Them that heard Him is not us or me.

The writer of Hebrews, according to their own testimony, did not hear directly from Jesus.

Much love!

More precisely...

FEW that were directly TOLD via God/Christ Jesus....DID the ACTUAL WRITING...


Most often The ACTUAL WRITING was done BY "SCRIBES"... who were "WRITING" as the SPEAKER was "SPEAKING".

The CHOSEN 12 -1 (the betrayer), were Chosen to...continue Jesus' mission of seeking out LOST JEWS....get them BACK on TRACK of them having a relationship with God, and introducing THEM to their Christ Jesus Messiah.

The CHOSEN Paul (the Jewish Roman), was Chosen to...introduce Gentiles to the Jewish God and Christ Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.

Minus telephones, e-mail, text, airplanes, autos.....LETTERS were a viable WAY to SPEAK to people, when ones PRESENCE was not optional.

Common sense notifies us, nearly a DOZEN men traveling and speaking is not comparable to ONE man...

Paul took advantage of Letter Writing on numerous occasions when he could not be in person to teach men.

Not much is said about the 11 Apostles ability to WRITE...John we know was educated and could write...Paul we know was educated and could write...and we know the missions given them by the Lord and their acceptance of those missions.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

farouk

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Thanks to @Stan B ....
I had the oppty to reread my post no. 63.

Boy, does it sound wrong!
I didn't mean that I can't learn anything new...
I meant this ONLY about Hebrews....
In the sense that nothing can convince me to change my mind that
we do not know who the author is.

THERE'S MUCH FOR ME TO LEARN!!!
I guess it revolves around the fact that the author is not actually named in the main body of the text (although I happen to think Paul probably wrote it).
 

Hidden In Him

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Yeah, it sounds reasonable, if just on the basis of common sense.

But there is no need to speculate on the authorship of the Hebrews. It was given the stamp of approval over and over by the early church. But as always, there have been 'scholars' and such, whose only objective has been the discredit Scripture.

Eusebius AD 265 – 340 became Bishop of Caesarea in 313. He is known, not so much as a "Church Father" but as the "Father of Church History." His specialty was separating the true canon of Scripture from all the bogus stuff. He confirms the authorship of Hebrews in his "Ecclesiastical History Chapter III The Epistles of the Apostles." The Epistles of Paul were so well known in the church, that he didn't even bother to name them:

"The Epistles of Paul are 14, all well known and beyond doubt."

The 14 Epistles of Paul were each named a few years later by Athanasius AD367. Similar to Eusebius, He prefaces his list by almost apologizing over tedium of recording them yet once again, something that had been so frequently recorded 'from the beginning':

Athanasius Archbishop of Alexandria Easter/Festal Epistles Letter xxxix

"5. Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John."

Good solid post.

I once considered that Paul might not have been the author, but Hebrews 10:34 is just too much to overcome. By saying, "for you had compassion upon me in my bonds," without any qualifiers, the writer was assuming his readers knew exactly who he was. How could any other writer, whom we have no other recorded letters from, make this assumption? Especially given that his reference to being helped in his bonds is so reminiscent of what Paul stated frequently, such as in Philippians 1:7 and 2 Timothy 1:16-18.
 
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marks

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Good solid post.

I once considered that Paul might not have been the author, but Hebrews 10:34 is just too much to overcome. By saying, "for you had compassion upon me in my bonds," without any qualifiers, the writer was assuming his readers knew exactly who he was. How could any other writer, whom we have no other recorded letters from, make this assumption? Especially given that his reference to being helped in his bonds is so reminiscent of what Paul stated frequently, such as in Philippians 1:7 and 2 Timothy 1:16-18.

Good point, but a question. If Paul wrote Hebrews, why not put his name to it like he did all his letters?

much love!
 
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GodsGrace

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In my small group we took a vote when we came to Hebrews, and "Written by Paul" won over "Not written by Paul", so thereafter, we referred to the writer as Presumably Paul.

:p
LOL
Do you go to my church?

JK.
That couldn't be possible!!
 
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GodsGrace

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What I meant when I wrote it is that I think Enoch feels very strongly that no one is to adulterate the Bible.

Much love!
This is for @Enoch111 too.

I don't think ANYTHING could adulterate the Word of God.
Whoever wrote a book doesn't really matter...it's what it teaches that's important.
As long as Jesus' teachings are correctly stated..what does it matter WHO wrote Hebrews, or any other book?

I agree with Paul. The resurrection is what we hinge our faith on...if THAT didn't happen, we have been fooled and are the most lost persons in the world. 1 cor 15

I do believe Enoch knows that I read a bit of the ECFs and am VERY interested in the early church, and, of course, that includes the time right after Jesus' death. I just think we lost sight of the fact that we're talking about 2,000 years ago. I've come to accept what the ECFs state and what is stated by Jesus...but I have no doubt that I am not reading Jesus' EXACT words.
There is simple proof about this within our very own gospels.

Sometimes I fear that if Enoch does not accept this...he will one day fall from a very high pedestal.
 

farouk

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I agree with Paul. The resurrection is what we hinge our faith on...if THAT didn't happen, we have been fooled and are the most lost persons in the world. 1 cor 15
1 Corinthians 15 is indeed a most glorious chapter! And in the light of the Resurrection we already have the victory! (1 Corinthians 15.57) and we may persevere in complete confidence! (1 Corinthians 15.58).
 
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marks

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This is for @Enoch111 too.

I don't think ANYTHING could adulterate the Word of God.
Whoever wrote a book doesn't really matter...it's what it teaches that's important.
As long as Jesus' teachings are correctly stated..what does it matter WHO wrote Hebrews, or any other book?

I agree with Paul. The resurrection is what we hinge our faith on...if THAT didn't happen, we have been fooled and are the most lost persons in the world. 1 cor 15

I do believe Enoch knows that I read a bit of the ECFs and am VERY interested in the early church, and, of course, that includes the time right after Jesus' death. I just think we lost sight of the fact that we're talking about 2,000 years ago. I've come to accept what the ECFs state and what is stated by Jesus...but I have no doubt that I am not reading Jesus' EXACT words.
There is simple proof about this within our very own gospels.

Sometimes I fear that if Enoch does not accept this...he will one day fall from a very high pedestal.

I've read a bit of the Early Church Writers, not Fathers, no one is the father of the church like that.

I like to remind that these are the Extant Early Church Writings, and not necessarily all the early church writings, so, how representitive they really are is up for question.

There may have been other writings which we do not have.

I've read many things in their writings that I think really miss the point of Scripture. The first that comes to mind is Ireneaes and his church hierarchy.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Good point, but a question. If Paul wrote Hebrews, why not put his name to it like he did all his letters?

much love!

Well, all his other epistles were addressed to either a particular church or a particular individual. But in this case he was writing to Hebrew believers throughout the ancient world, knowing the letter would be circulated. These circumstances would not have necessitated addressing the letter to any one church or individual in particular.