Paul: The Law is a Ministration of Death, 2 Cor. 3:7.

[BarneyFife]

That sounds really nice!! Enjoy!

Much love!

Thanks, Old Pal!!

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[CadyandZoe]

As long as we're letting our guards down, as it were, I would concede that if I were to err (which is certainly likely to some degree) it would be on the side of caution, perhaps otherwise perceived by many as legalism. Not in the sense that I would consciously give way to any notion that my own works could merit anything towards redemption, but I would rather God reject me for over-zealously attempting to be obedient to Him while doing no harm to others than being self-indulgent in some unnecessary convenience or luxury.

My dad was a career Navy man and I'm an Air Force vet having worked mostly in defense industry manufacturing until I retired so regulations are not a hard sell for me.

But to your observations, I'm not sure why God makes a point of mentioning the sanctity of life in His impromptu inauguration of post-flood society. It's always been a bit of an awkward literary object to me, and it might be worth some deeper study.

As I said in another post, moral law and morality are so tightly linked in my mind (the endless spirit vs. letter debates render me comatose), That Genesis 4 is not a stretch for me at all, really. By itself, I wouldn't object to other interpretations, per se, but it is called "sin" and is called to account, so it's hard to divorce from Romans 5:13 for me conceptually, at least. I suspect that what Paul's understanding of "law" includes (or, at least, what the Holy Spirit was trying to say through him) is something we might be studying for eternity and never exhaust.

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Bluntly put, I'm way past my honeymoon phase with God. I'm not looking to see how much I can retain of what I'm comfortable with and still manage to find enough favor with Him to be saved. I've been married for nearly 40 years and I have the blessed privilege of seeing what self-denying, self-sacrificing, other-centered love between two created beings can grow into. I'm not settling for anything less with God because I want an abundant entrance into His presence, and I want to influence as many others as I possibly can to have the same rewarding experience, This comes across to many as self-exalting, but I know I'm the chief sinner around here, and pretty much anywhere else I go.

While we're at it, I think I was a little short with you in another thread about COVID-19 treatment. I'm sorry about that. I've done some learning since then and I feel that, as is all too often the case, I'm too closed-minded about what others are doing their best to learn and share about these things.

Glad to meet another military brat. (those of us who know better realize that this is not a derogatory remark.) I think my dad made Master Sergeant but he traded a reduction in rank for a duty state side during the Vietnam War. He already served in Korea, and at the time he already had 5 kids.

And thanks for sharing your experience with me. I very much appreciate it.

 

[BarneyFife]

Glad to meet another military brat. (those of us who know better realize that this is not a derogatory remark.) I think my dad made Master Sergeant but he traded a reduction in rank for a duty state side during the Vietnam War. He already served in Korea, and at the time he already had 5 kids.

And thanks for sharing your experience with me. I very much appreciate it.

Lol - my dad volunteered for duty on Guam twice to avoid shipboard assignment. They finally put him on The Midway in The Indian Ocean 2 years before he retired tho.

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[Brakelite]

Just to make things abundantly clear, I would first like to make 2 points.
First, truly appreciate the dialogue between you 3. Thank you, all of you, for your thoughtful, insightful, discussion without rancour, self promotion, belligerence or pride. May we have many more of those, as they are a great example to the rest of us as to how a conversation may be carried on, even though there may be disagreement on some particulars.
Second point. I'm beginning to wonder if I missed out on something. (Not marriage, now going on 46 years, praise God ) but the military thing. When I was 17, in my country of NZ, we had a draft system whereby ipf your birthday date came up, compulsory military training was inevitable at the local base, which was situated near the top of a mountain range surrounded by snow, ice, and nothing much else. My date came up. I had 6 months to prepare mentally for something I dreaded. This was not for me, not in any way I could imagine could I consider myself military potential.
2 days before I was due to depart for a cold hell, the government scrapped the whole idea. Effective immediately. What did I miss? I will never know. Possibly a positive life changing experience, or, God knew where He did not want me, and altered the course of NZ history just for me.

Back to the topic at hand...

For some reason we get the wrong impression about morality, believing that right and wrong didn't exist until God laid down the rules. This isn't true at all. Cain inherently knew that murder was wrong. He didn't need a commandment from God informing him that it was wrong.

I agree. Morality, right and wrong, or at least the right, has been around for as long as God has lived. And Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, which I would suggest was not only in appearance, but in character as well. However, that "created in the image of God" motif that began with Adam, ended with him as well. For we read in
KJV Genesis 5:3
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.

I would think that Cain and Abel were also born in the image and likeness of Adam. I also think that we tend very much to grossly underestimate how rapidly and how deeply Adams sin affected not just mankind as a whole, but even himself and his immediate offspring. So while I agree with you that there would have been a modicum of moral consciousness in the hearts of Adams descendants, as there is to this day unless completely hardened by sin, Cain's personal moral compass was already adversely damaged as evidenced by his reluctance to obey God's requirements for sacrifice, and trust in his own ideas on how worship ought to be undertaken, based on pride, presumption, self confidence, arrogance, self will... In short, all the same rebellious self promoting mindset of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. If Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then that same callous disregard from life was in Cain also. It seems the depravity of man and the enslaving power of sin very quickly overcame any desire to resist, even after a personal warning from God Himself.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Second point. I'm beginning to wonder if I missed out on something.

I like your perspective on God's will and how he, at times, directs our path, and at other times, clears a path for us to walk. I can think of two positive aspects of military service other than steady employment: 1) comradery and 2)discipline. What I learned from my dad is an idea he got from military service. "There is always a right way to do anything." So, an aspect of military duty is learning how to do the right thing, at the right time, in the right way.

Another favorable aspect of military service is comradery. The military fosters what they call, "esprit de corp." The men in one's unit share a feeling of pride, fellowship, and common loyalty. These men are your family, your brothers and you share a common bond not readily found outside the service. I never saw this aspect in my father while he was alive, but after he died, as I was grieving for him, I found a box of his pictures. In the box were pictures of my dad with his buddies, on station, smiling and laughing, dressed in their camouflage khakis. Truth be told, soldiers don't fight for their country as much as they fight for their buddies. A soldier will do almost anything for his brother in arms.

I agree. Morality, right and wrong, or at least the right, has been around for as long as God has lived. And Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, which I would suggest was not only in appearance, but in character as well. However, that "created in the image of God" motif that began with Adam, ended with him as well. For we read in
KJV Genesis 5:3
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.

One might argue the opposite point from that passage. The phrase "in his own likeness" might indicate a positive rather than a negative. But I totally understand your point here.

When I talked earlier about our innate sense of morality, I remembered a study I once heard about where child psychologists discovered that babies are born with an incipient moral sense, knowing when another baby had done wrong to them. It seems that very early in life, a baby knows when another baby has done something wrong to him, and when he has done something wrong to another baby. Perhaps a moral sense is hardwired into our nature. I can't say for sure, but it makes sense to me.

I would think that Cain and Abel were also born in the image and likeness of Adam. I also think that we tend very much to grossly underestimate how rapidly and how deeply Adams sin affected not just mankind as a whole, but even himself and his immediate offspring.

Good point.

In short, all the same rebellious self promoting mindset of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. If Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then that same callous disregard from life was in Cain also. It seems the depravity of man and the enslaving power of sin very quickly overcame any desire to resist, even after a personal warning from God Himself.

I like your observation. If I ever get around to making another video, I want to make one about the beast of Revelation. It seems to me that the final beast will be much like you described.

Finally, thanks for your kind words. Have a good one. And lift up the head, a positive "esprit de corp" can be found among Christians too.

 

[BarneyFife]

But looking at Genesis 9, it would be a stretch to conclude that God made a law against murder in that context. Wouldn't it? At best, I argued in the past that God made a prescription for the death penalty and the role of government. It seems that God wants Noah and the human race to begin to make laws of their own and when they make a law against murder -- the punishment should be death. (Also, I should also note that God's punishment of Cain for murder wasn't death, but banishment and loss of livelihood.)

This is a very interesting insight to which I didn't pay enough attention when I first read it.

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