PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[dad]

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"

The last week is after the other 62 and 7 weeks.

Right it is not in the end time/last seven years that Jesus was killed.

Jesus completed the first half as Messiah

No the last seven years has not started yet and when it does in the middle of THAT seven years is when the abomination is set up.

. Messiah and Prince fulfills the 70th week. The 69 weeks were over even before Jesus was born. The 70th week could have been any week since about 50 BC until the 7th Trumpet. 50 BC is after the 69 weeks.

There is only one seven year week left after Jesus is cut off. That has not happened yet.

There were about 500 years between Daniel and the birth of Jesus. You only needed 490 years of that.

No. The total is 490. And it ends at the return of Jesus. Jesus was cut off at 69 weeks. There is one week left that could not have started yet because we know plenty about what happens in it, and also it only ends at the return of Christ.

Of course it is a controversy about even which decree happened when. There was a gap between the first 49 years and the next 434. 49 + 434 = 483. That leaves 7 years. I am not one of those who declare to the exact date of April of 30AD, the 70 weeks. There was a gap between year 49 and 50 just like Gabriel said. There is a gap between year 486 and 487 just as Paul declared, about Israel put on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Romans 11:25-27

The so called gap is due to a tiny bit of uncertainty in the calendars, birth of Jesus date etc. Regardless of man not being able to get it perfect down to the day, we can say that within a week it ends up at the time Jesus entered Jerusalem. It could never happen again. There could be no changing the time of the prophesy landing right when Jesus was alive.
There is no doubt.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The mystery is Daniel 9 as declared in Revelation 10:7 at the 7th Trumpet.

The mystery in the verse you cited is that the Jews won't be saved and remain blind till the end. The rest you made up

"there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

If that is the same mystery as the one in the verse you posted then what does that mean? As I said the mystery was that the Jews would not be saved until the end of the time of the Gentiles at the end of the tribulation. So, if the mystery is over they would be saved...right on cue in the end!

This is when the 70th week is over. No more time after that declaration, except then we see Revelation 13

That would be the end of the tribulation of course. And that is the end of the last seven years!

The Second Coming brings Jesus and the angels to earth to take care of Jacob.

As well as the untold millions of other tribulation believers. All believers.

The judgment of Matthew 25:31 states Jesus as Prince on His Glorious throne will be on earth during the Trumpets,

Whoah. There is no mention of the seven judgment trumpets there. But when He returns to earth He will judge the nations.

the time of Jacob's greatest trouble ever. Then if necessary Daniel 9:27 kicks in, and Satan is granted 42 months, after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

No chance. When the trumpets and then the vials after them are finished, it is over.The 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation included. No more demons or Satan any more on earth for a good thousand years.

The AoD is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27

In what way?

, and that is Revelation 13,

Point?

after the 7th Trumpet. Armageddon is the cleanup after the AoD.

Oh, no way Hosea. The armies gathered from all nations at Armageddon are not there for clean up. They will need to be cleaned up.

The Millennium is the Day of the Lord where Daniel 9:24 will be in full effect, not just symbolically.

No. 60 weeks took us to Jesus at His first coming. The day of the Lord did not start thousands of years ago. Not even close.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh on the earth, period!

Say who? The nations we rule over are people. What did you think they were, androids? Goats? Aliens? Zombies?

 

[Timtofly]

Right it is not in the end time/last seven years that Jesus was killed.


No the last seven years has not started yet and when it does in the middle of THAT seven years is when the abomination is set up.



There is only one seven year week left after Jesus is cut off. That has not happened yet.


No. The total is 490. And it ends at the return of Jesus. Jesus was cut off at 69 weeks. There is one week left that could not have started yet because we know plenty about what happens in it, and also it only ends at the return of Christ.


The so called gap is due to a tiny bit of uncertainty in the calendars, birth of Jesus date etc. Regardless of man not being able to get it perfect down to the day, we can say that within a week it ends up at the time Jesus entered Jerusalem. It could never happen again. There could be no changing the time of the prophesy landing right when Jesus was alive.
There is no doubt.


The mystery in the verse you cited is that the Jews won't be saved and remain blind till the end. The rest you made up


If that is the same mystery as the one in the verse you posted then what does that mean? As I said the mystery was that the Jews would not be saved until the end of the time of the Gentiles at the end of the tribulation. So, if the mystery is over they would be saved...right on cue in the end!


That would be the end of the tribulation of course. And that is the end of the last seven years!


As well as the untold millions of other tribulation believers. All believers.



Whoah. There is no mention of the seven judgment trumpets there. But when He returns to earth He will judge the nations.



No chance. When the trumpets and then the vials after them are finished, it is over.The 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation included. No more demons or Satan any more on earth for a good thousand years.



In what way?

Point?

Oh, no way Hosea. The armies gathered from all nations at Armageddon are not there for clean up. They will need to be cleaned up.



No. 60 weeks took us to Jesus at His first coming. The day of the Lord did not start thousands of years ago. Not even close.

Say who? The nations we rule over are people. What did you think they were, androids? Goats? Aliens? Zombies?

You obviously did not understand a word I posted, but you did have an erroneous answer for each time you took the time to break what I posted apart. Every point you made was off, and certainly not the point I was making. I never even posted half the points you made. The rest you misunderstood what I did say. It is not worth the effort to point out how wrong you are, because you cannot even see the points I am making. It is like you read my post then presupposed I wrote something entirely different.

Jesus was Messiah for the first half of the 70th week. Jesus will be Prince for the last half of the 70th week. Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, because that is when the Cross happened. That was not part of the first 69 weeks. The ministry of Jesus on the earth teaching His disciples is part of the 70th week, then Jesus was cut off. Not for Himself, but for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in. That was the point of the New Covenant, New Testament or this period called the Christian Church. The church, the New Testament, the New Covenant will be complete at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Then the rest of the 70th week will commence with Jesus as the Prince to come, on a throne in Jerusalem.

Jesus was the Messiah as promised for the first half of the week. Jesus will be Prince as promised for the remainder of the 70th week, which is declared complete at the 7th Trumpet. If you cannot see that Jesus is on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders, gathering the firstfruits to live with Him in the Millennium, then you have to imagine, there are sinners struggling to still be alive hiding on earth somewhere during the battle of Armageddon. They literally are the army returning with Jesus on horses. But you have this human imagined notion that Jesus is not involved at all in the 70th week along with all the Amil and those wrapped up in looking for the wrong Messiah. The 70th week was not over in the first century. The entire 70th week is not future.

The 70th week is not going to be given to Satan. That is you being blasphemous with all prophecy presented to you, because you refuse to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

Jesus is the only reason we get these promises:

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Jesus is the 70th week, and the Prince to come part did not happen in the first century. Yes the Messiah part was accomplished. Yes the church, now including all Gentiles and all of Jacob who accept salvation can enjoy Paradise. But the promises are for those of Jacob living on the earth. Those promises will be fulfilled, but Jacob has to get through the Trumpets first. The sheep get to come back in the army on horses. The goats get tossed alive into the LOF. That judgment is while Jesus sits as Prince and all the angels are gathering Jacob out of all the nations all over the brand new looking earth where every mountain and continent has now been moved, and all the works on earth have been burned up.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

That is John telling us all the angels have arrived, and there is a new look to the face of the earth.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

That is Peter telling us all the angels are now on the earth, and all human works are burned up, with nothing left but God's creation.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

That is Matthew telling us all the angels come to the earth and humans are still alive on the earth, not killed when everything was burned up.


Of course they don't mention the Trumpets. They have not even started to sound at that point. We have to get through the opening of the Seals first. What did ancient Israel at the time of Moses and during the tabernacle and temple period use as a call to assembly?

Do you think those of Jacob will remain blind as they become sheep, or remain blind in the LOF? They were blinded in part, or Jesus would have never been handed over to Pilate to be crucified. They were blinded in part, or they would have never revolted and brought the Romans in fury to destroy everything in Jerusalem. But their blindness was not the cause of the 70th week. God on earth was the 70th week, making them blind, so the fulness of the Gentiles could be brought in. That is a harvest term. The final harvest is about Jacob and those left after the Gentile harvest.

The Gentile harvest was the bulk of Paradise with all the OT redeemed out of Abraham's bosom. I say was because the last 1993 is the bulk of that harvest. Although billions on earth today could still be part of the church. It is not over until the 6th Seal is opened. The harvest of sheep during Jacob's trouble and the wheat during the Thunders is the firstfruits of the Millennium reign on the earth. Paradise will remain the home of Adam's redeemed flesh. Earth will be the home of those gathered after the 6th Seal. The book of Revelation does not have to use the term harvest. We get that term from other Scriptures.

That is why post tribulationist are wrong. The church is removed to Paradise pre-trib. Those during the GT remain on the earth. And those who split the rapture from the Second Coming literally make stuff up that cannot be found in Scripture. Then you claim that Scripture cannot interpret Scripture nor give a logical explanation. You have human imagination and understanding and that is good enough for you.

 

[dad]

Jesus was Messiah for the first half of the 70th week. Jesus will be Prince for the last half of the 70th week.

No He was not. That week is still to come. Jesus was cut off in the 69th week. Clearly.

That was not part of the first 69 weeks.

Yes it was and that is why the time was divided clearly into seven weeks,


Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

No seventieth week is mentioned here. Jesus was cut off after 69 weeks. The years of those seven year periods add up to 483 years. No matter how you shake it Jesus was here when the years expired! The last week has to finish transgressions on earth, end sin, and finish up all the vision and prophesy. The only part fulfilled so far is Jesus dying to reconcile us. The end of transgressions in Israel and the world has not stopped. Nor will it until the prophesy is finished and Jesus returns! That has to be in the final week that sees all things wrapped up.



Daniel 9:24
God has decided that for seventy weeks, your people and your holy city must suffer as the price of their sins. Then evil will disappear, and justice will rule forever; the visions and words of the prophets will come true, and a most holy place will be dedicated.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks have been determined concerning your people and your holy city to put an end to rebellion, to bring sin to completion, to atone for iniquity, to bring in perpetual righteousness, to seal up the prophetic vision, and to anoint a most holy place.


Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city— to bring the rebellion to an end, to put a stop to sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.

Jesus was the Messiah as promised for the first half of the week.

The last week was not even mentioned and the things in the prophesy could not possibly all be completed yet.

Jesus is the 70th week,

Jesus is not a month or a week actually. Nor will the rebellion stop until He comes and stuff be brought in to Israel and the world. Right now the world is a cesspool getting worse and worse as prophesied.

and the Prince to come part did not happen in the first century.

Nor did the seventieth week. It is in the middle of THAT week that we know the abomination will be set up.


Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What week did you think that was?? The other 69 weeks were already mentioned! There is only one left. You try to conflate the week number 70 into the other weeks. There you go again with that conflating thing. That is a new twist for you though, rather than compressing the 69 weeks you try to extend them! I guess the operative word in either case is contort.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

That is Peter telling us all the angels are now on the earth, and all human works are burned up, with nothing left but God's creation.

They will be here as we will also be until the end of that 1000 years when it is time at last to burn the planet and make it new. ( as well as destroy the final rebels that encamped around the millennial saints)

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

That is Matthew telling us all the angels come to the earth and humans are still alive on the earth, not killed when everything was burned up.

Not at all. That is you doing what you do, conflating times and events. No person lives through the total fire after the 1000 years! Only people with new bodies will be around to come back to the earth after that. In the 1000 years there are people! After, no, not people in the flesh. So what the verse actually references is after Jesus returns to the earth. There are still people then. Simple.

Of course they don't mention the Trumpets. They have not even started to sound at that point. We have to get through the opening of the Seals first. What did ancient Israel at the time of Moses and during the tabernacle and temple period use as a call to assembly?

There you get totally lost, thinking the tribulation judgments are still to come when Jesus is already returned. Hyper conflation.

Do you think those of Jacob will remain blind as they become sheep, or remain blind in the LOF? They were blinded in part, or Jesus would have never been handed over to Pilate to be crucified. They were blinded in part, or they would have never revolted and brought the Romans in fury to destroy everything in Jerusalem. But their blindness was not the cause of the 70th week. God on earth was the 70th week, making them blind, so the fulness of the Gentiles could be brought in. That is a harvest term. The final harvest is about Jacob and those left after the Gentile harvest.

There you descend, inevitably, due to conflating times and events and hyper conflating them, into utter confusion. When Israel gets saved near the end of the seven years they will no longer be blind. Simple.

The church is removed to Paradise pre-trib.

If you didn't shove the tribulation to the time after Jesus returned (as I think you do?) having the bride leave earth before the seven years would make sense.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have no Scripture to prove the last 42 months is not given to Satan. Revelation 13 mentions no tribulation nor judgment. All that is mentioned is that Satan gets to do whatever he wants for 42 months uninterrupted. Feel free to prove Revelation 13 is about judgment from God. About the only thing good that happens is that many chop their heads off for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Not even the vials are poured out during those 42 months. The 7 vials happen after the 42 months are over after the 2 witnesses are killed.

Revelation 15

King James Version

​

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

After this, comes Jesus return!

YOu have no Scripture to support the last 42 months belong to Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

No He was not. That week is still to come. Jesus was cut off in the 69th week. Clearly.


Yes it was and that is why the time was divided clearly into seven weeks,


Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

No seventieth week is mentioned here. Jesus was cut off after 69 weeks. The years of those seven year periods add up to 483 years. No matter how you shake it Jesus was here when the years expired! The last week has to finish transgressions on earth, end sin, and finish up all the vision and prophesy. The only part fulfilled so far is Jesus dying to reconcile us. The end of transgressions in Israel and the world has not stopped. Nor will it until the prophesy is finished and Jesus returns! That has to be in the final week that sees all things wrapped up.



Daniel 9:24
God has decided that for seventy weeks, your people and your holy city must suffer as the price of their sins. Then evil will disappear, and justice will rule forever; the visions and words of the prophets will come true, and a most holy place will be dedicated.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks have been determined concerning your people and your holy city to put an end to rebellion, to bring sin to completion, to atone for iniquity, to bring in perpetual righteousness, to seal up the prophetic vision, and to anoint a most holy place.


Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city— to bring the rebellion to an end, to put a stop to sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.




The last week was not even mentioned and the things in the prophesy could not possibly all be completed yet.




Jesus is not a month or a week actually. Nor will the rebellion stop until He comes and stuff be brought in to Israel and the world. Right now the world is a cesspool getting worse and worse as prophesied.

Nor did the seventieth week. It is in the middle of THAT week that we know the abomination will be set up.


Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What week did you think that was?? The other 69 weeks were already mentioned! There is only one left. You try to conflate the week number 70 into the other weeks. There you go again with that conflating thing. That is a new twist for you though, rather than compressing the 69 weeks you try to extend them! I guess the operative word in either case is contort.




They will be here as we will also be until the end of that 1000 years when it is time at last to burn the planet and make it new. ( as well as destroy the final rebels that encamped around the millennial saints)


Not at all. That is you doing what you do, conflating times and events. No person lives through the total fire after the 1000 years! Only people with new bodies will be around to come back to the earth after that. In the 1000 years there are people! After, no, not people in the flesh. So what the verse actually references is after Jesus returns to the earth. There are still people then. Simple.



There you get totally lost, thinking the tribulation judgments are still to come when Jesus is already returned. Hyper conflation.



There you descend, inevitably, due to conflating times and events and hyper conflating them, into utter confusion. When Israel gets saved near the end of the seven years they will no longer be blind. Simple.

If you didn't shove the tribulation to the time after Jesus returned (as I think you do?) having the bride leave earth before the seven years would make sense.

After means something, that is why the word is there. After is not within the 62 weeks, but after they are over.

There is no 7 year period any where in Scripture. You make that up in your own imagination. Jesus is the 70th week. Jesus already fulfilled the Messiah part, where He was cut off, a symbolic term explaining how blindness came in part to Jacob.

Matthew 13 has Jesus and the angels on the earth during the final harvest, not my idea at all. This is the time of Jacob's trouble. Jesus is separating Jacob into sheep and goats after the Second Coming. That is why it is their "darkest hour".

 

[Timtofly]

What week did you think that was?? The other 69 weeks were already mentioned! There is only one left. You try to conflate the week number 70 into the other weeks. There you go again with that conflating thing. That is a new twist for you though, rather than compressing the 69 weeks you try to extend them! I guess the operative word in either case is contort.

If you look at the Hebrew that can be a set of days or years. It does not have to be the last week. It could be the days of the 7th Trumpet as declared in Revelation 10.

In the midst of the 7th Trumpet, then an AoD is set up by Satan, interrupting the days of the 7th Trumpet with a 42 month period.

Jesus as Messiah being cut off, cannot be conflated with the event in verse 27. The 70th week is not interrupted by the same event as the AoD. Two different reasons and two different events.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 15​

​

King James Version​

​

​

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

After this, comes Jesus return!

YOu have no Scripture to support the last 42 months belong to Satan.

I have Revelation 13. You don't even point to when the AoD is set up in the midst of the 7th Trumpet. The 7 vials in chapters 15 and 16 are not until after the 42 months are over.

The same 3.5 years the 2 witnesses are on earth. The 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem is when the 7 vials are poured out.

 

[dad]

After means something, that is why the word is there. After is not within the 62 weeks, but after they are over.

There is no 7 year period any where in Scripture. You make that up in your own imagination. Jesus is the 70th week. Jesus already fulfilled the Messiah part, where He was cut off, a symbolic term explaining how blindness came in part to Jacob.

Matthew 13 has Jesus and the angels on the earth during the final harvest, not my idea at all. This is the time of Jacob's trouble. Jesus is separating Jacob into sheep and goats after the Second Coming. That is why it is their "darkest hour".

If Jesus entered Jerusalem and was killed AFTER that seems to do it.

 

[dad]

If you look at the Hebrew that can be a set of days or years. It does not have to be the last week. It could be the days of the 7th Trumpet as declared in Revelation 10.

So all the other sets of seven are years but the last week is days?

In the midst of the 7th Trumpet, then an AoD is set up by Satan, interrupting the days of the 7th Trumpet with a 42 month period.

Says who? What if the Abomination took say, a month to set up? Do you think a trumpet blows all month long?

Jesus as Messiah being cut off, cannot be conflated with the event in verse 27. The 70th week is not interrupted by the same event as the AoD. Two different reasons and two different events.

The abomination is in the midst of the week.

 

[Timtofly]

So all the other sets of seven are years but the last week is days?


Says who? What if the Abomination took say, a month to set up? Do you think a trumpet blows all month long?

The abomination is in the midst of the week.

All the other sets?

There is only one set of 70 weeks and one set of days.

What if the AoD is already to go?

Are you saying the AoD has been set up and in force for 1993 years?

Two different events in Daniel 9. The Cross is one event. The days of the 7th Trumpet is the other, per Revelation 10.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have Revelation 13. You don't even point to when the AoD is set up in the midst of the 7th Trumpet. The 7 vials in chapters 15 and 16 are not until after the 42 months are over.

The same 3.5 years the 2 witnesses are on earth. The 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem is when the 7 vials are poured out.

Well timeframes of how the 70th week works itself out are numerous! You and I can argue to deatrh when the events will happen and neither change our minds. I am convinced based on 49 years of study that the first 6 seals are pre-trib, teh trumpets are the first half and the vials are the second half. You believe differently and we will not convince the other. Time will show if one of us is right or we are both wrong!

 

[dad]

All the other sets?

There is only one set of 70 weeks and one set of days.

We were talking about trumpets. Be honest.

What if the AoD is already to go?

Then from the daily sacrifice to the end would be 1290 days I guess. But since we have the timing a few ways from the time the woman flees and such, the 1260 days from then to the end is known. A known quantity in the equation. In the one verse, therefore that talks about an extra month while mentioning both the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination, that tells us that they stop the sacrifice and then set up the abomination. Add the known quantity of after we SEE the abomination being 1260 days and there is no mystery left.

Are you saying the AoD has been set up and in force for 1993 years?

No. In the final week of history, it is set up around the middle of the seven years. The time it takes to set up, apparently is about a month, or at least within the same month that the sacrifice is taken away. It seems simple.

Two different events in Daniel 9. The Cross is one event. The days of the 7th Trumpet is the other, per Revelation 10.

Unless I missed something there is not any mention of trumpets in the chapter.Sorry you can't randomly insert stuff.

 

[Timtofly]

Unless I missed something there is not any mention of trumpets in the chapter.Sorry you can't randomly insert stuff.

I did not insert anything. You are missing the point that the days of the 7th Trumpet fulfills Daniel 9:27. Read Revelation 10, to get the connection. There is no Cross mentioned in Daniel 9:26. Do you randomly insert the Cross into that verse as a hypocritical act of your own set of rules?

All of these events where you count the days per Daniel is you trying to relive Antiochus Epiphanes as specifically as they already lived it in 156 BC. Talk about inserting stuff where it does not belong...

Jesus never said it would be the exact number of days. He said when you see a similar event to the one prophecied in Daniel, which was fulfilled in 156 BC, let the reader understand. Obviously no one in the first century saw a repeat of Antiochus Epiphanes. No one has even seen a temple since then. Daniel up to chapter 9 has been fulfilled except for verse 27. And the last half of the 70th week was put on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, per Paul.

The Messiah part is not on hold until the Second Coming. Daniel 12 is still talking about several things in closing, and verse 11 is about 156 BC. Daniel does not prophecy past the time of the Cross in detail. Daniel sees the Cross as being the end time ressurection. No one could see the last 1993 years called the "fulness of the Gentiles". Even Paul expected the Second Coming at any moment. John called it the last days. Then you have people claiming 70 AD was the very last of the last days, and it is still over 1900 years later.

Now you can try to break down the periods of time mentioned in Revelation 12, but none of them correspond to Daniel, because he was the John and Revelation of the OT ending at the Cross. John and Revelation is the Daniel of the NT ending at the Day of the Lord. Did Daniel see the GWT judgment event? He may have, but that was supposed to have already been over at the First Coming. That is what they were looking for. Not another 2,000 years of a period called the church.

Two times in Revelation 12 we see this woman fleeing Satan, but it is not 2 different times. It is the same period after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. It is mentioned in conjunction with Satan being defeated and cast to the earth. And we don't even need to know the length as given in Revelation 12, because in the next chapter we are told it is 42 months. So this woman who represents Jacob as Israel does not even experience any tribulation during these 42 months. So the GT is already over before Israel has to flee. This woman already suffered the GT during the Trumpets.

So none of Israel is on earth, and they are in a wilderness, away from what is going on on the earth during this period of AoD. They all fled as Jesus told them to. Even the 144k left Jerusalem with Jesus and the angels. None of the redeemed stuck around while Satan was given 100% control. How can this 42 months be tribulation for Jacob and the 144k if they are out of harms way, and not even in the picture. To make sure we get the point, John told us twice.

So claiming this last 42 months is the second half of a 7 year period and is the GT won't work, because neither the church nor Jacob will be on earth under Satan's control. And there are no Trumpets after the 7th Trumpet. All the tribulation was the first 6 Trumpets where Jacob was being judged as sheep or goats and being removed from the earth. John called it going into her place in the wilderness.

Unless you totally dismiss chapter 12, Jacob, this woman, known as Israel won't even be a part of this last 42 months. Neither will the wheat and the tares. The only humans left during this time are those who receive the mark, and those who chop off their heads. Then all those with the mark still alive on the earth, after the 42 months, will all be killed at Armageddon. Which is the last event of the 7 vials poured out after the 42 months end. They just start to celebrate the death of the 2 witnesses, and then God's wrath is poured out on them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then from the daily sacrifice to the end would be 1290 days I guess. But since we have the timing a few ways from the time the woman flees and such, the 1260 days from then to the end is known. A known quantity in the equation. In the one verse, therefore that talks about an extra month while mentioning both the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination, that tells us that they stop the sacrifice and then set up the abomination. Add the known quantity of after we SEE the abomination being 1260 days and there is no mystery left.

The only time standard is that after the AC signs the covenant with Israel , in the midst of it He causes teh sacrifice and oblation to end. Most dispensational scholars believe this is when he enters the temple and declares himself to be god.

 

[dad]

I did not insert anything. You are missing the point that the days of the 7th Trumpet fulfills Daniel 9:27.

Why is that a point rather than fiction? Proof?

Read Revelation 10, to get the connection. There is no Cross mentioned in Daniel 9:26. Do you randomly insert the Cross into that verse as a hypocritical act of your own set of rules?

We know how Jesus was killed. By the way which cross in Rev 10 are you referring to?

All of these events where you count the days per Daniel is you trying to relive Antiochus Epiphanes as specifically as they already lived it in 156 BC. Talk about inserting stuff where it does not belong...

Not in any way. That old guy in ancient history could not possibly have fulfilled anything to do with ending the transgression and bringing in everlasting righteousness.

Jesus never said it would be the exact number of days.

Yes, that is why the days were given from the time certain things happen. That is why they days were also given as months and years. Your utter confusion has no justification whatsoever

He said when you see a similar event to the one prophecied in Daniel, which was fulfilled in 156 BC, let the reader understand.

Not true. He said when we see THE abomination Daniel prophesied.

Obviously no one in the first century saw a repeat of Antiochus Epiphanes. No one has even seen a temple since then.

Nor should they, why invent things they should have seen?

Daniel up to chapter 9 has been fulfilled except for verse 27.

OK. But 27 is a doosy

And the last half of the 70th week was put on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, per Paul.

No, who confirmed some covenant for seven years?

The Messiah part is not on hold until the Second Coming.

Not the first coming. There was some time between that and His return though of course.

Daniel 12 is still talking about several things in closing, and verse 11 is about 156 BC.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

No, that is the time till the end so there was no 1290 days in Jesus' day that brought us to the end.

Daniel does not prophecy past the time of the Cross in detail.

The time transgression on earth and in Israel end as well as when everlasting righteousness is brought to the world is long past the cross.

Daniel sees the Cross as being the end time ressurection.

Say what? No cross is mentioned.

No one could see the last 1993 years called the "fulness of the Gentiles". Even Paul expected the Second Coming at any moment. John called it the last days. Then you have people claiming 70 AD was the very last of the last days, and it is still over 1900 years later.

It is safe to say that the second coming is in the last days.

Now you can try to break down the periods of time mentioned in Revelation 12, but none of them correspond to Daniel, because he was the John and Revelation of the OT ending at the Cross.

Since Jesus told them to flee when they saw the abomination of desolation of course the 3 and a half years correspond.

John and Revelation is the Daniel of the NT ending at the Day of the Lord.

Jesus referred to the actual Daniel of old. What he revealed to John later fits perfectly to that.

Did Daniel see the GWT judgment event? He may have, but that was supposed to have already been over at the First Coming.

Say what? The GWT judgment is when the 1000 years after He returns to earth are over.

That is what they were looking for. Not another 2,000 years of a period called the church.

No one was looking forward to that at all actually. Seriously, the final judgment of the unsaved?

Two times in Revelation 12 we see this woman fleeing Satan, but it is not 2 different times. It is the same period after the 7th Trumpet has sounded.

You inserted a trumpet none is mentioned in Rev 12. Why?

Anyhow you seem to be disconnected from Scripture and we have nothing in common to discuss.

 

[dad]

The only time standard is that after the AC signs the covenant with Israel , in the midst of it He causes teh sacrifice and oblation to end. Most dispensational scholars believe this is when he enters the temple and declares himself to be god.

The verse mentions from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination set up. We have the woman fleeing after the abomination is seen. We have the witnesses doing their thing for a certain time. That time is 1260 days. The time when the extra time was mentioned was in connection with the daily sacrifice being taken away. (as well as the setting up of the abomination that will be seen after it is set up) So, if the leader was to enter the holy place 30 days before the abomination was all set up and revealed, that would be 1290 days. The period when believers flee is after they see it.

 

[doctrox]

The only time standard is that after the AC signs the covenant with Israel , in the midst of it He causes teh sacrifice and oblation to end. Most dispensational scholars believe this is when he enters the temple and declares himself to be god.

This apostasy, built in the basement of the antichrist, is the gift that keeps on giving, even as it was thoroughly debunked here in this forum nearly ten years ago.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So none of Israel is on earth, and they are in a wilderness, away from what is going on on the earth during this period of AoD. They all fled as Jesus told them to. Even the 144k left Jerusalem with Jesus and the angels. None of the redeemed stuck around while Satan was given 100% control. How can this 42 months be tribulation for Jacob and the 144k if they are out of harms way, and not even in the picture. To make sure we get the point, John told us twice.

Israel will still be global and the inhabitants of Judea will flee to most likely Petra.

It is for Jews will be slaughtered. Zech shows that during the trumpets and bowls 2/3 of Israel will be slaughtered

Jesus never said it would be the exact number of days. He said when you see a similar event to the one prophecied in Daniel, which was fulfilled in 156 BC, let the reader understand.

Now you are adding to Scripture your own hypotheses. Jesus just said when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel satnd in the Holy Place- then flee! He did not say it was about AE IV- that is you forcing an opinion on the text!

Antiochus was not teh abomination of Desolation. He did not end the sacrifce for 3 1/2 years and a month! It is still future.
!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The verse mentions from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination set up. We have the woman fleeing after the abomination is seen. We have the witnesses doing their thing for a certain time. That time is 1260 days. The time when the extra time was mentioned was in connection with the daily sacrifice being taken away. (as well as the setting up of the abomination that will be seen after it is set up) So, if the leader was to enter the holy place 30 days before the abomination was all set up and revealed, that would be 1290 days. The period when believers flee is after they see it.

An excellent Messianic Jewish Scholar who has been my teacher for over 35 years has given a very apt answer for the extra 30 days! It is a time of mourning for Israel and for cleansing the temple, that brings them to the 1335 days in Daniel 12.

 

[dad]

An excellent Messianic Jewish Scholar who has been my teacher for over 35 years has given a very apt answer for the extra 30 days! It is a time of mourning for Israel and for cleansing the temple, that brings them to the 1335 days in Daniel 12.

It seems you are saying that the Jews will mourn once their sacrifice is taken away for a month. If so, that works out to what I was thinking. It will likely take about a month to set up the abomination once the sacrifice is taken away. Then, once people see it up and running and the abomination is unveiled to the public there, then the countdown of 1260 days begins.