Paul

[bbyrd009]

In the John 3 sense . . .

right, so my answer would be “no, everyone is likely not ‘born again’”

and i say “likely” only bc i dont know how Yah might deal with those in their final hour

 

[marks]

ah well, i just Quoted a Bible v, marks

No, you said no one knows where they go when they die, and I'm saying that's your opinion, but you don't in fact know what I or someone else does or doesn't know. Nor can you seem to say whether or not God may speak truth to me, and I believe Him, and therefore can know.

Maybe that doesn't qualify to you as knowledge? Is Faith when you say, I believe such and such, hoping it's true?

ha nope

12 Steps, AA. You don't have to believe in God, just choose a higher power. So my friend chose his "higher carrot".

Much love!

 

[marks]

as per pEnoch.

Why do you do that?

 

[marks]

right, so my answer would be “no, everyone is likely not ‘born again’”

and i say “likely” only bc i dont know how Yah might deal with those in their final hour

I'd add that about Hitler also. I don't know what his final moments were.

What does it mean to be born again in this sense?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

right, so my answer would be “no, everyone is likely not ‘born again’”

and i say “likely” only bc i dont know how Yah might deal with those in their final hour

Only those whose faith is in JESUS are born again . All else is winds of vainity .
Thus pray to the LORD that laborers would be sent into the harvest . Cause in the end if a man denied Christ
ITS DAMNATION . But if one believes in Christ it is eternal life . ON this hill i have chose to die and no man can sway me from it .
THE ONLY ONE I KNOW TO POINT TO IS JESUS CHRIST . all else is winds of vanity . Winds of death and destruction
no matter how loving satan makes it seem , ITS all a lie .
BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST , or perish . that is the only two options . AND upon this hill and upon that cross i chose to die .

 

[bbyrd009]

No, you said no one knows where they go when they die, and I'm saying that's your opinion

well, and im saying that it is not; it is a v in the Bible

but you don't in fact know what I or someone else does or doesn't know

at least until i am told that someone knows where anyone is going after death, sure. Unless i am misinterpreting the v, quite possible

He who says that he knows anything, doesnt…

Nor can you seem to say whether or not God may speak truth to me, and I believe Him, and therefore can know

well as to that, Yah might also speak a “lie” to you i guess…meaning that Yah would “speak” a truth that could not be accepted, at least at the time

Maybe that doesn't qualify to you as knowledge?

well, i dunno, but i will point out that a lot of believers seem to “know” there is going to be a “rapture,” or “know” they are going to become immortals, via that same path, right? They “know” that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the ‘lord,’” even though that cannot be Quoted. and etc

Is Faith when you say, I believe such and such, hoping it's true?

i would say that that is delusion, not faith

12 Steps, AA. You don't have to believe in God, just choose a higher power. So my friend chose his "higher carrot".

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do you do that?

ah…dont mean it the way it might look i guess…its just that we already have an Enoch that can easily even be a subject here? “pseudo” does not mean “bad” iow

 

[marks]

ah…dont mean it the way it might look i guess…

That's just the way it looks to me, but maybe to others also.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

What does it mean to be born again in this sense?

im guessing it has to do with change your mind, and i doubt there is a ceremony for it?

 

[amigo de christo]

That's just the way it looks to me, but maybe to others also.

Much love!

Only those whose faith is in JESUS are born again . All else is winds of vainity .
Thus pray to the LORD that laborers would be sent into the harvest . Cause in the end if a man denied Christ
ITS DAMNATION . But if one believes in Christ it is eternal life . ON this hill i have chose to die and no man can sway me from it .
THE ONLY ONE I KNOW TO POINT TO IS JESUS CHRIST . all else is winds of vanity . Winds of death and destruction
no matter how loving satan makes it seem , ITS all a lie .
BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST , or perish . that is the only two options . AND upon this hill and upon that cross i chose to die .

 

[bbyrd009]

That's just the way it looks to me, but maybe to others also.

Much love!

so in future i might find some better way to refer to a concept forwarded by…someone else, i guess.
although i have tried just quoting them without reference, and that doesnt seem to work out either.
Hopefully it is understood that i do not know, and his pov is widely accepted by most believers, yes? I only meant to suggest that it might not be ezackly what was being meant, this literal plucking out of the right eye

 

[marks]

well, and im saying that it is not; it is a v in the Bible

Would you mind posting the passage?

well as to that, Yah might also speak a “lie” to you i guess…meaning that Yah would “speak” a truth that could not be accepted, at least at the time

OK, and I could be thinking I'm speaking to God when I'm really speaking to a mockingbird?

But maybe God wants us to know, and tells us?

well, i dunno, but i will point out that a lot of believers seem to “know” there is going to be a “rapture,” or “know” they are going to become immortals, via that same path, right? They “know” that “to be absent form the body is to be present with the ‘lord,’” even though that cannot be Quoted. and etc

On these, I'd need to get to specifics to have an intelligent conversation, or hopefully have one.

Misquotes and out of context quotes aside.

Like, "You and your sons will be here with me". Is that meant to be a blanket statement that there is only ONE eternal destiny which all share? Is that what Samuel was trying to express? Of that they would all be standing together as wraithes on that patch of ground in Endor? Or maybe that they would all be dead, and in Sheol? Awaiting judgment? Something else?

Much love!

 

[marks]

i would say that that is delusion, not faith

Or just wishful thinking.

Do you see a difference between "faith" and "knowledge"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

im guessing it has to do with change your mind, and i doubt there is a ceremony for it?

I don't think we really have a ceremony. I think the work is all done by God, we only receive. I'd say more, exchange your mind.

What about that "new creation"?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Or just wishful thinking.

Do you see a difference between "faith" and "knowledge"?

Much love!

YES . i used to have HEAD knowledge about the gospel , yet my works proved i had NO FAITH .
I had only been told that JESUS saves , At four years of age .
YET i never committed to HIM , TILL THE DAY GOD DREW ME and my heart was CHANGED .
MANY folks have knoweldge , EVEN satan knows , even the devils believe , BUT WHERE IS OUR FAITH .
Is it in us , in men , OR IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE as the ONLY ONLY ONLY MEANS OF SALVATION .
Yeah . I take that as well to my grave . NO FAITH IN JESUS IS CERTIAN DEATH
just like faith without works is dead . I could have all the good works one could think of
YET if my FAITH is not in JESUS , NO HOPE FOR ME . I am a stickler to the fact ONE MUST CONFESS JESUS to be saved .
And lip service is dead if its only a head knowledge yet our heart be far from him .

 

[amigo de christo]

Let all that draws breath praise and thank the glorious LORD . Every time i point to JESUS my soul gets so happy i feel like dancing .

 

[marks]

so in future i might find some better way to refer to a concept forwarded by…someone else, i guess.
although i have tried just quoting them without reference, and that doesnt seem to work out either.
Hopefully it is understood that i do not know, and his pov is widely accepted by most believers, yes? I only meant to suggest that it might not be ezackly what was being meant, this literal plucking out of the right eye

Not to worry . . . maybe it's just me . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Would you mind posting the passage?

since there are several extractions, ill post a list, which you are surely already aware of?
Ecclesiastes 9:12 For surely no man knows his time: Like fish caught in a cruel net or birds trapped in a snare, so men are ensnared in an evil time that suddenly falls upon them.

OK, and I could be thinking I'm speaking to God when I'm really speaking to a mockingbird?

well you have changed the direction now, yes? Iow you might be speaking to Yah, but you might not be hearing Yah? Yah might be telling you truth, but you hear…something else? Arent we all deceived?

Like, "You and your sons will be here with me". Is that meant to be a blanket statement that there is only ONE eternal destiny which all share? Is that what Samuel was trying to express? Of that they would all be standing together as wraithes on that patch of ground in Endor? Or maybe that they would all be dead, and in Sheol? Awaiting judgment? Something else?

boy, i dunno really marks; Samuel only gives that he was “at rest” right, Who is it that disturbs my rest?
so i hesitate to embellish there

 

[bbyrd009]

Or just wishful thinking

ya

Do you see a difference between "faith" and "knowledge"?

hmm
since “knowledge” might infer “knowing the future precisely” in that context, i would say “yes,” since faith might be more like “confident expectation?” iow i may not “know,” but i might reasonably expect?

when you get on a plane, do you know for a fact that it will not crash? no, right?

 

[TEXBOW]

Perhaps the biggest reason people don’t fully comprehend Pauls’ writings is they are contrary to what they’ve always believed as church members. And mixing Pauls’ writings (grace) with the 4 Gospels and the epistles of James, Peter, John and Jude (law) for doctrine only causes confusion.

What is significant about Pauls’ writings is that he alone was called by the Lord to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. His writings are to Gentiles ONLY (except, obviously, Hebrews) and cannot be applied to those under the law. The disciples are the apostles to the Jews ONLY and were commanded by Jesus to NOT go to the Gentiles or Samaritans…exactly as the Mosaic law dictates that Jews shall not mix with them under any circumstances.

Speaking to Ananias -
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: (underlining mine)

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (KJV)

Even years after the Jerusalem council where Paul and Barnabas met with the disciples, and agreed that Paul and Barnabus would go to the Gentiles and they to the Jews (Acts 15, Galatians 2, especially vs 9), the disciples failed to fully comprehend salvation by grace through faith alone. Peter fully acknowledged Paul but also that his teaching was difficult to fully comprehend as recorded in 2 Peter 3:15-16

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (KJV)

Note also the last part of verse 16 regarding the unlearned being confused between what the disciples were teaching – Jesus is the risen Messiah to Jews only. Period. They knew nothing about Jesus dying for our sins, except as Paul told them in Jerusalem – vs Pauls’ preaching that the cross IS salvation by grace through faith plus nothing.

Jesus was born under the law, lived under the law, and it could be said he died under the law by teaching that He was the promised Messiah – Heresy in the eyes of Israels’ ruling class (Pharisees, mostly). But Jesus himself stated that works (keeping the law) can never ‘justify’ anyone to get into the kingdom of heaven as shown in Matthew 7:21-23

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (KJV)

Now look at what Paul wrote about Abraham in Romans 4:2-3 -

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (KJV)

Works has NO PART in being justified, righteous, or saved in Gods' eyes. God will NEVER be put in a 'You owe me because...' situation. Look at Hebrews 11...the FAITH chapter, finishing with Hebrews 12:2

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (KJV)

It's all faith, faith, faith...no works. Pauls' letter to the Hebrews is redirecting the Jews away from the law and its works to faith alone in Jesus, their Messiah, aka the Christ. It's the same as the Gospel preached by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4...faith ALONE in what Jesus did for us at the cross. When He said 'it is finished', He is stating that He fulfilled ALL the prophecy written about him in His first coming.

Paul sums it up in 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 23 -

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (KJV)

Law and grace can not be mixed together or combined. Keeping them separate makes understanding Gods' Word far easier, but also shows how God is dealing with us Gentiles until we’re raptured out of here. Pauls' writings are our guidebook. Israel was temporarily 'set aside' in 70 AD and only came back together in 1948...the only nation to ever be split up and scattered to the winds and then re-created...exactly according to prophecy (Amos 9:11-15).

What Peter wrote roughly 1960 years ago in 2 Peter 3:16 is still true today…people and churches are STILL trying to mix law and grace and getting all twisted. They fail to 'rightly divide' Gods' Word as Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:15

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)

Bruce, a few things. What exactly did Timothy have in his possession (word) that he could rightly divide? As far as scripture all he had was the Old Testament and Pauls letters. Paul certainly could not have been telling Timothy to rightly divide the New Testament we have today because it was NOT in existence then.
We also know from Paul that the revelation given to him by Jesus was also given to the Apostles and Prophets by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 3:5 Why? There was a reason the Holy Spirit reveled the mystery to the Apostles also.

Your point regarding the Apostles being told to preach to the Jews and not the Gentiles was BEFORE the dispensation of Grace. I think you will quickly support that after the revelation to Paul on the road to Damascus EVERYTHING changed. It was a true mystery before. Jesus could not have told the 12 Apostles to preach that salvation was available by faith to both Jew and Gentile while Jesus was still on earth because it was still a mystery. I think many take liberty with the scriptures when assuming that Paul could be the only one sharing the dispensation of Grace. If that was true then God would not have provided the revelation by way of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. I do think they had difficulty accepting this revelation but it looks as if over time Peter fully agreed with the revelation as did the Church in Jerusalem. I think much like Paul first took his ministry to the synagogues / Jews and then to the Gentiles we do not know if the 12 Apostles may have done the same thing Post revelation in the dispensation of Grace.

We must take into consideration the dates of when ALL epistles were written to fully understand what may or may not have been preached by the 12 post mystery revelation. Another thought, Gaius who Paul said he baptized 1 Corinthians 1:14 could that be the same Gaius John mentions in 3 John 1:1? When Paul mentions Cephas (Peter) in 1 Corinthians 1:14 is it not possible that some in the Church in Corinth were led to salvation by Peter? That they could have received the message from Peter while in Jerusalem or from Peter in some other location? Looks to me that Paul, Peter and John may have not been so far apart in doctrine as some would have us believe.