Paul

[bbyrd009]

I don't think we really have a ceremony

ha ok

I think the work is all done by God, we only receive

well, or dont receive, or receive a counterfeit, or maybe even receive enough to keep walking, and change our minds later, right. I guess pretty much a bell-curve, and all of those happen, in different contexts? Your “receive” will be different than mine, almost surely

 

[marks]

since there are several extractions, ill post a list, which you are surely already aware of?
Ecclesiastes 9:12 For surely no man knows his time: Like fish caught in a cruel net or birds trapped in a snare, so men are ensnared in an evil time that suddenly falls upon them.

I'm aware of quite a number of places that speak of death and dying, and what happens after, but I'm not familiar with one that says no one knows.

This one speaks of the timing of one's death, but not what happens after. Ecclesiastes has the place also about the spirit returning to God, perhaps the most intriguing of them all to me, but I understand it alongside other passages, and not just by itself.

well you have changed the direction now, yes? Iow you might be speaking to Yah, but you might not be hearing Yah? Yah might be telling you truth, but you hear…something else? Arent we all deceived?

What I'm saying here is that God can be speaking, and we can hear Him, and know what He's saying, right? Not that this always happens, and I think we can all get wrong ideas, but it seems you think we can't get the right ones, and know they are right? Do I understand?

boy, i dunno really marks; Samuel only gives that he was “at rest” right, Who is it that disturbs my rest?
so i hesitate to embellish there

Then maybe the solution here is to recognize all the things he didn't say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your “receive” will be different than mine, almost surely

That is how it seems!

 

[bbyrd009]

What I'm saying here is that God can be speaking, and we can hear Him, and know what He's saying, right? Not that this always happens, and I think we can all get wrong ideas, but it seems you think we can't get the right ones, and know they are right? Do I understand?

well, Yah is unapproachable, yes? And hearing is not so easy to come by. So i would say “and know what He is saying” might be taking it a little too far? Bc when you “know” something, you would tend to close your mind to any new data?

Then maybe the solution here is to recognize all the things he didn't say?

maybe

That is how it seems!

ha well we can only receive something that has been heard, right? If i tell you “i hope you get what you deserve,” am i indicating that i am praying for your come-uppance, or for your deserved reward?

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

There seems to be much skepticism here regarding the authority and authenticity of Pauls' writings to Gentiles.

Over in Eschatology & Prophecy forum, in the "Was Paul false prophet?" thread, I posted a few minutes ago the following (copied in its entirety and pasted below)

Some might say that the Book of Jonah was completely false except that Jesus referred directly to his writing:

Matthew 12:38-40 (KJV)
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Do you believe Jesus' own words? Good.

How about Peters' own words?

2 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Although the disciples of Jesus were apostles to Jew only, Peter was the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles

Galatians 2:7-9 (KJV)
9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision

Paul uses the term 'circumcision' to refer to the Jewish people, and 'uncircumcision' refers to Gentiles.

And Pauls' prophetic description of exactly what is happening today -

Rom 1:18-32 (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Believe or don't believe as you choose. It will all get 'sorted out' when your life on earth comes to an end.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x end of copy and paste

In my opinion, it all comes down to one thing - it's clear you believe in God, but do you believe God? (ie, His Word?) David did. Here's some verses from of Davids' Psalm 119 where he wrote about Gods' Word -

Selected verses of Psalm 119 (KJV)
9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
25 DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.
42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.
89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.
114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.
160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

(I've been told the all capitalized words at the front of some verses are the Hebrew alphabet. These days, we may number items in a list, or use letters)

Gods' Word is a 'progressive revelation'. The more one reads it, the more one understands it, and is changed by it. It doesn't happen overnight. Nor can a 'Vulcan mind-meld' be done to learn it. (with respects to Leonard Nimoy) I don't think a day goes by that I don't learn something new in Gods' Word. I admit that I have forgotten more than I'd like as I age, so sometimes when I read it again, it's new!

Romans 12:1 (KJV)
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[marks]

well, Yah is unapproachable, yes? And hearing is not so easy to come by. So i would say “and know what He is saying” might be taking it a little too far? Bc when you “know” something, you would tend to close your mind to any new data?

I realize, it's a stretch. But if its possible to know what God says, that's one thing, and if it's not, that's something else.

We believe what we believe until we come to believe something different, right? But will we come to believe something different? Or will God preserve us in a true relationship with Him? I think so.

ha well we can only receive something that has been heard, right? If i tell you “i hope you get what you deserve,” am i indicating that i am praying for your come-uppance, or for your deserved reward?

Wait for the present?

Imprecise language. But is God guilty of that?

I really think that He reveals Himself to those who seek Him.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

But will we come to believe something different? Or will God preserve us in a true relationship with Him? I think so.

ha well the two might be synonymous?

Wait for the present?

Imprecise language. But is God guilty of that?

I really think that He reveals Himself to those who seek Him.

to those who seek Him, sure, but our "seeking" begins as "seeking spoon-feeding from those who have no vested interest in telling us the truth" essentially, imo; prompting Paul's "study for three years alone first" passage, i am pretty sure? Iow ezackly what none of us has done

 

[marks]

ha well the two might be synonymous?

to those who seek Him, sure, but our "seeking" begins as "seeking spoon-feeding from those who have no vested interest in telling us the truth" essentially, imo; prompting Paul's "study for three years alone first" passage, i am pretty sure? Iow ezackly what none of us has done

Except Paul wasn't alone. And we're not the apostle to the gentiles, so maybe our program is a little different.

What's wrong with seeking God through teachers? It seems cynical to me to think that there are NO sincere teachers. Is it the method, or the desire? Won't God lead us if we are sincerely mistaken?

Oh . . . and yes, they can be synonymous . . .

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

im guessing it has to do with change your mind, and i doubt there is a ceremony for it?

Those born again, I believe, have a new beginning, but what do any of them have going for them better than what Adam and Eve had in the garden before they disobeyed?

Cannot a person who had received a new beginning still choose to look or go back and fail... like Lot's wife? Was she not saved when she chose to ignore good advice?

 

[marks]

Those born again, I believe, have a new beginning, but what do any of them have going for them better than what Adam and Eve had in the garden before they disobeyed?

Galatians 2:19-21 KJV
19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Through the one commandment, they died. We being crucified with Christ, having died in Him, do not die again.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Galatians 2:19-21 KJV
19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Through the one commandment, they died. We being crucified with Christ, having died in Him, do not die again.

Much love!

I believe that the ones who will not die again are only those who have overcome as Jesus overcame. Before Jesus was crucified it was not possible for anyone to do that. Jesus made it a possibility by opening the closed way to the Tree of Life, but only overcomers may partake of that Tree. To enter through it we must be properly prepared. We must be clean and be overcomers.

By the Holy Ghost poured on whosoever will beginning on Pentecost as per Acts 2 this became a possibility... but it must be done. We have been given all that is needed to accomplish it. Jesus did not do that for us on the cross.

In order to never die we need to eat of the Tree of Life and who is allowed to do that other than overcomers?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" Rev 2:7

Jesus became an overcomer [John 16:33] before he died on the cross. He overcame for himself, but we must overcome for ourselves by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Whether or not we use what God has provided to overcome is always up to us. Too many people love their own ways too much to surrender completely to God allowing the Holy Spirit to truly lead and to overcome...

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Rom 8:13

The mortifying is the killing of the old man. That is the overcoming process which each of us must complete in order to eat from the Tree of Life. What must be overcome by us is not sin itself, but the things within us which when followed will lead us back to sin again. It is the Spirit of God in us which provides the means necessary power to do overcome. And then here we see the things which need to be killed/overcome within ourselves:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" I John 2:16

And who was it that crucified Jesus? He did not do it himself, but he certainly allowed it to be done...

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18

As we yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit within us, the Holy Spirit will guide and strengthen the new man of us to kill the old man of us. This is why Apostle Paul admonishes us:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

The battles rage within each of us to sin or not to sin. The power of God never loses, but we have authority over God within us. That is what men call "free will". We can keep hold of our reins [effectively giving to the old man] or we can surrender to God [giving the reins to the Holy Spirit within us]. Leading ourselves, we will lose. The Holy Spirit leading us, we will win. How many battles must we fight? Until all of those things which would lead us to sin have been finally overcome. When that is done, then the old man is dead and we with Jesus could say:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father..." John 17:11 When Jesus prayed that prayer he had not yet gone to the cross but he had overcome the last temptation of his own old man [man of fleshly desires as per those listed in I John 2:16].

We are still in our own little world of temptation. When and if we have overcome the last obstacle fighting against the new man, we will be where Jesus even if we are still on planet Earth. Jesus was certainly still on planet Earth when he prayed that prayer.

If we are still attracted by the lust of the eyes, or the lust of the flesh or the pride of life... or any combination of those things and we still ever succumb to any of them, we are not overcomers, are we? Impossible, yes, for a man working by his own carnal/fleshly abilities and will! What is impossible for God? What is the Holy Spirit in a man?

 

[Truman]

I died, He lives, and dwells inside of me
I am finally assured of eternity! Hallelujah!
Give God the glory He so richly deserves!

 

[Paul Christensen]

People on the conservative side of the spectrum seem to believe everything Paul says in the Bible was inspired by God, and therefore is the Word of God. People on the left seem to pick and choose what is the Word of God. People in the middle might go back and forth between the two.

I might suggest this: God gave Paul a very important mission: Setting up churches and instructing them. Paul wasn’t perfect, though. He commanded much respect, so his letters were kept, and in time considered scripture.

There is a member on another thread who says that what Paul wrote he didn't really say, but it was actually someone else's opinion of what he said. How crazy is that?

Let's take an example. Paul lists the works of the flesh in Galatians 5. He says that people who do those things will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Our friend in the other thread would say that Paul didn't really say that doing the works of the flesh would keep people out of the kingdom of heaven, but what was written was someone's opinion of what he said, implying that our friend is quite free to have another opinion that is not in line with Paul's "opinion". If we go from the sublime to the ridiculous, it could be said that the Ten Commandments are not commandments at all, but merely Ten Opinions which we can take or leave according to what we decide.

 

[Bob Estey]

Well, yes, where did that come from?

Yet God gave me a book, which I treasure very highly! More than any other possession. And as it's Words are retained in my heart, these too become my most treasured thoughts.

Much love!

Some people give the Bible the same standing as God. I don't think that is wise.

 

[Bob Estey]

There is a member on another thread who says that what Paul wrote he didn't really say, but it was actually someone else's opinion of what he said. How crazy is that?

Let's take an example. Paul lists the works of the flesh in Galatians 5. He says that people who do those things will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Our friend in the other thread would say that Paul didn't really say that doing the works of the flesh would keep people out of the kingdom of heaven, but what was written was someone's opinion of what he said, implying that our friend is quite free to have another opinion that is not in line with Paul's "opinion". If we go from the sublime to the ridiculous, it could be said that the Ten Commandments are not commandments at all, but merely Ten Opinions which we can take or leave according to what we decide.

Yes, I have heard it said that priests substituted their own words for God's words in the Old Testament. In effect, this would mean the Bible is lying. The Bible doesn't lie.

 

[marks]

Some people give the Bible the same standing as God. I don't think that is wise.

Perhaps that may be so, just the same, that's not what I'm saying. Perhaps there is One Who says that though . . .

Psalms 138:2 KJV
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

So I think God puts a lot of emphesis on His Word.

What I don't consider wise is to parse Scripture, "this is real, but this part isn't". To me that seems like a good way to lead yourself down the proverbial garden path.

And again, I've found that understanding brings harmony to the Scriptures. I just don't feel like there is anything I need to toss out.

And you still haven't told me what parts you think aren't really God's Word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe that the ones who will not die again are only those who have overcome as Jesus overcame. Before Jesus was crucified it was not possible for anyone to do that. Jesus made it a possibility by opening the closed way to the Tree of Life, but only overcomers may partake of that Tree. To enter through it we must be properly prepared. We must be clean and be overcomers.

By the Holy Ghost poured on whosoever will beginning on Pentecost as per Acts 2 this became a possibility... but it must be done. We have been given all that is needed to accomplish it. Jesus did not do that for us on the cross.

This is the difference between us, in that you look to our successful performance, while I do not, only looking to Christ's performance, for my justification. And the other difference, being justified when we believe, or when we've died in a state of personal righteousness, having overcome sin in the flesh.

I can only look to Jesus, without any confidence in myself. And I believe this is the teaching of the Bible.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Except Paul wasn't alone

well the passage is kinda sparse, seems like he was for the first three years tho

And we're not the apostle to the gentiles, so maybe our program is a little different

hmm. does seem like we have at least one “emulate me as i emulate Christ” passage, dunno…

What's wrong with seeking God through teachers?

i think its a great idea myself; but it might be about who we choose as “teachers?”

It seems cynical to me to think that there are NO sincere teachers

well, i wouldnt doubt the sincerity of a teacher, so much as their bias, and motive for teaching, maybe? And little kids teach us too, right; even with bias and motive, sometimes?

Many who set themselves up as “teachers” are i think seeking the attention and respect of others, and i say “many” when it is likely more than that imo. Personally i seek reluctant or better yet oblivious teaching, and i avoid “teachers” like i avoid gnostics, now anyway

Is it the method, or the desire?

well, we could examine what the Bible says about teachers, Bible Search: teachers , where it would seem that the answer is “yes, and no”

Won't God lead us if we are sincerely mistaken?

i would imagine yes, and i dont mean to imply that one should not avail themselves of teachers, or even gnostics for that matter, but i would separate the two since they are so often synonymous, maybe?

I currently have three teachers that come to mind, and they would all be surprised to learn that i view them that way i bet. Plus, they dont talk like most teachers, “it’s like this and like that and like this,” not saying that stuff cant be learned from gnostics too, but that…whenever i hear “the truth is…” i know im about to get smoked lol. clouded. obscured, in some regard?

 

[bbyrd009]

Those born again, I believe, have a new beginning, but what do any of them have going for them better than what Adam and Eve had in the garden before they disobeyed?

Cannot a person who had received a new beginning still choose to look or go back and fail... like Lot's wife? Was she not saved when she chose to ignore good advice?

been thinking about that passage, funny to me that “salt” is used differently everywhere else but here? What is pillar of salt i wonder

 

[bbyrd009]

We being crucified with Christ, having died in Him, do not die again

well that assumes one has been crucified with Christ, which i would not claim for myself, yet

also i die daily, which is prolly in a different context, same subject though basically