Paul's Mention Of Christ In You??

[stunnedbygrace]

I am only on the edge of understanding your point. You apparently want to make the distinction between faith and belief as per the original language, but while the English KJV uses both words quite a bit, the German in most cases uses only one: Glauben… whether it is derived from pisteuo or not, whether it is translated to faith or belief in English. While I read the Bible in German I am not a linguist and am very dependent on resources not my own when dealing with the original language.

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" II Thess 2:13 [KJV about 1611]

hmeiV de ofeilomen eucaristein tw qew pantote peri umwn adelfoi hgaphmenoi upo kuriou oti eilato umaV o qeoV ap archV eiV swthrian en agiasmw pneumatoV kai pistei alhqeiaV" II Thess 2:13 [Greek transliteration]

"Wir aber sollen Gott danken allezeit um euch, von dem HERRN geliebte Brüder, daß euch Gott erwählt hat von Anfang zur Seligkeit, in der Heiligung des Geistes und im Glauben der Wahrheit," II Thess 2:13 [Luther Bible about 1522 NT]

One other example for you:

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17 [KJV about 1611]

"dikaiosunh gar qeou en autw apokaluptetai ek pistewV eiV pistin kaqwV gegraptai o de dikaioV ek pistewV zhsetai" Rom 1:17

[Greek transliteration]​

"Sintemal darin offenbart wird die Gerechtigkeit, die vor Gott gilt, welche kommt aus Glauben in Glauben; wie denn geschrieben steht: "Der Gerechte wird seines Glaubens leben." " Rom 1:17 [Luther Bible about 1522 NT]

The word, Glauben, in German is the most common translation equaling either faith or belief in the English KJV Bible. Another commonly used German word in the scriptures which may mean faith or belief, is Vertrauen which is closer to meaning trust or confidence and is more likely to be translated with one of those in English.

I wish I could be more helpful, but I seldom if ever make the distinction I believe you are trying to show between faith and belief.

If you come up with a more pertinent verse I will try again, but my limited ability in this is just that, limited...

This is a miracle but...I think for once I think I understand what Byrd was thinking! :)

If faith were just belief and nothing more, how does the apostle say, Oh, you believe? Congratulations, so do the devils.

But, I think...its not believing God exists that is what faith is. Or...I think it is MORE than that. If I had to define faith, (and I often do because I see that people I talk to don't really know what it means), the best word I have found as a definition is: evergrowing trust.

 

[bbyrd009]

This is a miracle but...I think for once I think I understand what Byrd was thinking! :)

If faith were just belief and nothing more, how does the apostle say, Oh, you believe? Congratulations, so do the devils.

But, I think...its not believing God exists that is what faith is. Or...I think it is MORE than that. If I had to define faith, (and I often do because I see that people I talk to don't really know what it means), the best word I have found as a definition is: evergrowing trust.

and if I may ask what does having trust accomplish, practically speaking? Imo one must have trust to act from conviction, but I note that I have acted from what I thought was conviction in the past and then been sorry later too

 

[stunnedbygrace]

and if I may ask what does having trust accomplish, practically speaking? Imo one must have trust to act from conviction, but I note that I have acted from what I thought was conviction in the past and then been sorry later too

I wasn't talking about conviction or convictions held that led you to do something you then regretted. I was talking about trust in God and as that trust grows, you don't find regret - you find a broader space to breathe in.

Our entire race is a race of trusting and running without stumbling as we have in the past. Trusting for all things, in all things, trusting all things He has said.

For the most part, we get stuck in even just trusting Him for temporal promises He has made to us. Our hearts are so deceitful, we can even insist we are in trust when we are most definitely not. He said, when I come again, WILL I find trust?

Theological discussions most often just act as fig leaves to hide the problem of not trusting that we are in. We constantly worry how we will pay this or that and it is the exact opposite of trusting that if we just seek Him first, all these things will be added to us.

And that's just one example of our lack of trust. Oh but hey, you only have to trust He will make you live forever. All the rest He has said, that's just optional. Trust or not trust, makes no difference. Right...??

 

[bbyrd009]

And that's just one example of our lack of trust. Oh but hey, you only have to trust He will make you live forever. All the rest He has said, that's just optional. Trust or not trust, makes no difference. Right...??

I'd have to ask for a rephrase, not sure if you meant sentence two to be in the voice I'm hearing it in or not

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'd have to ask for a rephrase, not sure if you meant sentence two to be in the voice I'm hearing it in or not

It was maybe in a slightly...sarcastic voice, that sentence. Some exasperation at the teaching that you only have to believe Jesus died for your sins and that is the end of the race of trust. I think its a deal to cheat death that won't stand.

 

[bbyrd009]

It was maybe in a slightly...sarcastic voice, that sentence. Some exasperation at the teaching that you only have to believe Jesus died for your sins and that is the end of the race of trust. I think its a deal to cheat death that won't stand.

Ah ya, "Death More Abundantly" (google) I guess

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But I just remembered, I forgot to answer your question of what trust accomplishes, practically speaking.

Practically speaking, trust has returned dead people to life again, has made lions purposely made hungry to keep their mouths closed and has made men thrown into an oven come out unharmed.

But we just don't really believe it could be that way for us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So instead, we say miracles don't happen the same way any more, gifts have ceased, etc. I mean, don't our own eyes say this is true...?

 

[marks]

What is the dispute between "faith" and "belief"? Don't both come from the same Greek word, so both should be considered the same?

Much love!
Mark

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I guess the dispute is more over what faith has been made to mean by some men.

 

[amadeus]

"the princes of this world" were the religious leaders of Paul's day.

Only then and only there? How about also now and in our own little world of the flesh?

"the wisdom of God in a mystery" Christ in you the hope of glory.
Colossians (1:27)

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Even so...!

Galatians (4:1-2)

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

That should be us... at least until we actually inherit:

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Rom 8:17

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[marks]

I guess the dispute is more over what faith has been made to mean by some men.

So more like intellectual assent to doctrine, but not uniting one-self to God in total reliance on Him? Something like that?

 

[ScottA]

I have taken alot of things for granted as a Christian, even spiritual things.
Seems to be normal for humanity to do this, if life is working out we are ok with it. If life is not working out it brings on a mode of seaching for the reason. Thinking about some of the situations Christians endure, couldn't help but think about what Paul had to say about Christ living in the born again.
The question that came was; How did Paul know Christ was living in the born again. His epistles mention it over 150 times in one way or another.

I'll ask you the same question; How did Paul know Christ was living in the born again???
If you care to take a shot.

Serious Answer's Please

This is a culmination of many spiritual truths that Paul was chosen to elaborate:

• Being One with the Father and the Son.
• Being born again, specifically, being born again of the spirit of God.
• Jesus' promise to come in and to sup, meaning to partake together of the things of God.
• God is spirit.
• Jesus' promise to be with us until the end of the [church] age.
• Jesus' promise to come again, that where He is, we would be also...which is with the Father, whom is spirit.
• Jesus' promise that the Holy Spirit would speak rather than those being used.
• The example of Christ's death and resurrection as a foreshadowing of ones death to the flesh and birth of the spirit.
• The reality that there is only One begotten of God, that unless we are in Him and He in us, we do not have the eternal life promised through Jesus Christ.

 

[complete]

I have taken alot of things for granted as a Christian, even spiritual things.
Seems to be normal for humanity to do this, if life is working out we are ok with it.
If life is not working out it brings on a mode of seaching for the reason.
Thinking about some of the situations Christians endure,
couldn't help but think about what Paul had to say about Christ living in the born again.
The question that came was; How did Paul know Christ was living in the born again.
His epistles mention it over 150 times in one way or another.

I'll ask you the same question; How did Paul know Christ was living in the born again???
If you care to take a shot.

Serious Answer's Please

Also, thank you for your answers. I didn't mention it but wasn't looking for anything in particular,
just curious what everyone else had on their mind. It is some of the things I question myself about and seek the Lord.
The lord is always faithful to give you what you need,
if you get nothing on a particular idea or whatever you seek our Father for then it my not be that important to our understanding.

A foot note just came in; if you are a person going about to straighten out the world system and have a need to picket and protest, which seems to be the norm for this social hour; and the world is getting worse, then maybe it's not that important to your understanding, js.
If you have a burden then maybe your called to the ministry, have you ever let that cross your mind.
If so, we are not protesters we are preachers, ministers of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many are called but few answer

Because of Christ in the believer, every office is in a believer whether exercised or not. That depends on their creation and calling to do so.
But as far as being there, yes by Christ. Everything done in ministry and life we do by Christ, you have no other life.
There is only one life, Christ, can you see the importance of Paul to the believers understanding,
immeasurable to say the least because he preached "CHRIST" as the believers only life,
unbelievable what Paul has to say if we could read our bibles.
Believers should not leave Gal. 2:20 until it is indelible written in there hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit, transforming.

'I am crucified with Christ:
.. nevertheless I live;
.... yet not I,
...... but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live
.. in the flesh
.... I live by the faith of the Son of God,
...... Who loved me,
........ and gave Himself for me.'
(Galatians 2:20)

Praise God!

 

[complete]

'Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
.. and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ
.... in my flesh for his body's sake,
...... which is the church:
........ Whereof I am made a minister,
according to the dispensation of God
.. which is given to me for you,
.... to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery
.. which hath been hid from ages and from generations,
.... but now is made manifest to His saints:
To whom God would make known
.. what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
.... which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom;
.. that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
.... Whereunto I also labour,
...... striving according to His working,
........ which worketh in me mightily.'
(Colossians 1:24-29)

Praise His Holy Name!

 

[complete]

Hello there,

In Colossians 1:27: (quoted above - #55), the words, 'Christ in you,' is, 'Christ among you,' ('en' with the plural = among). That being the case: in this context, it is a corporate application and not personal, isn't it? Salvation had been sent to the Gentile (ie., the nations - see Acts 28:28): therefore Christ was among them; God desired that the Gentile saints should know, that He (Christ) was their hope of (the) glory.

* This 'mystery' was not revealed until after Galatians was written: having been 'hid in God' until divinely made known to Paul, as it's Administrator, following Acts 28, and the laying aside (temporarily) of Israel in blindness and unbelief. Paul administered the fellowship of this mystery in his later epistles, (Eph. Phil, Col. 1&2 Timothy and Titus).

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[mjrhealth]

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” (Ephesians 4:11) (KJV 1900)

Than along came the Holy Spirit, and that is now fulfilled in all those who believe,

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

[Dave L]

Than along came the Holy Spirit, and that is now fulfilled in all those who believe,

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

This is true but you must not ignore Paul's words about the temporal aspects of the charismatic gifts, which many do.

 

[soul man]

In Colossians 1:27: (quoted above - #55), the words, 'Christ in you,' is, 'Christ among you,' ('en' with the plural = among). That being the case: in this context, it is a corporate application and not personal, isn't it?

Hi Chris, I think I understand what you are saying, could you elaborate some please. Also, can you give your understanding of the other 146 times (that I have counted, summed up in one answer) Paul places the believer in Christ? Thanks

 

[complete]

Hi Chris, I think I understand what you are saying, could you elaborate some please. Also, can you give your understanding of the other 146 times (that I have counted, summed up in one answer) Paul places the believer in Christ? Thanks

'But we preach Christ crucified,
.. unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
.... and unto the Greeks foolishness;
...... But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
........ Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men;
.. and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
.... For ye see your calling, brethren,
...... how that not many wise men after the flesh,
........ not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
.. and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
.... And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen,
...... yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
........ 'That no flesh should glory in His presence.
But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." '
(1 Corinthians 1:23-31)

Yes, @soul man,

* God places the believer, 'in Christ'. I need to look up the 146 occurrences that you refer to, 'soul man', in order to comment, but I have no doubt that Paul does refer to the believer as being, 'in Christ', as the verses quoted above show.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris