Paul's Thorn In The Flesh=Not a Sickness but a Messenger of Satan to buffet me.

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Hidden In Him

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I think I have gone as far with this as I am willing to go. Either get to the point or forget it.

Ok, Hermit, I guess I'll "get to the point," although it would have been preferable if you had answered the question I was asking because I am a little concerned you will be even less likely to answer it once I make my point. But here is what I was driving at:
Now, if Satan was merely a tool as you say, then did he know he was a tool or not? If your interpretation holds weight then you should be able to answer these questions, and your answers should hold up to logic. Did he know he was a tool or not?

If Satan knew that God was merely using him as a tool, yet you say, "it did not work in Satan's favor," and did "not profit [him] anything," then why was Satan continuing to send this "messenger" to him? Why did Satan not relent? Paul clearly said ὑπὲρ τούτου τρὶς τὸν Κύριον παρεκάλεσα, ἵνα ἀποστῇ ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ. You said whether Satan knew or not makes absolutely no difference, but I disagree with you.
 
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oldhermit

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Like I said, we are done here. You are swatting at mosquitoes and ignoring the alligator in the boat. This is a trivial matter that is of no interest to me.
 

Hidden In Him

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This is a trivial matter that is of no interest to me.

But there may be others who are. I doubt anyone else on this thread is going to answer me. You seem to be the most educated of those who support your position.
You are swatting at mosquitoes and ignoring the alligator in the boat.

I like this analogy, LoL. That's a fun one. Now truth be known, I'm actually going after the alligator's head with a shovel, LoL, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating a good analogy. :)

Blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord! And if you wish to return to this thread at a later time, please do. I find this passage to be both interesting and theologically important.
 
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oldhermit

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But there may be others who are. I doubt anyone else on this thread is going to answer me. You seem to be the most educated of those who support your position.


I like this analogy, LoL. That's a fun one. Now truth be known, I'm actually going after the alligator's head with a shovel, LoL, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating a good analogy. :)

Blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord! And if you wish to return to this thread at a later time, please do. I find this passage to be both interesting and theologically important.
Who cares whether Satan knew or not? That makes absolutely no difference. Paul says he received a "messenger from Satan." If you want to know what that messenger was, read to see what Paul describes. He does not discuss his struggles with some supposed demonic tormentor. What he describes in this context are his struggles with persecution and hardships. This was his thorn in the flesh with which he struggled. If you want to examine something of relevance, I suggest you consider how he was able to endure all these extreme external experiences without being psychologically overwhelmed. This is a far more relevant and intriguing pursuit than what you are obsessing over.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I suggest you consider how he was able to endure all these extreme external experiences without being psychologically overwhelmed. This is a far more relevant and intriguing pursuit than what you are obsessing over.

That is indeed important, and I incorporate it into a great deal of my theology and practice. But the focus of this thread is defined by the OP:
"Paul's Thorn In The Flesh = Not a Sickness but a Messenger of Satan to buffet me." She then provides a link to Wommack, where he presents the argument that the reference is to an angel of Satan, sent to raise up persecution against Paul.

Why am I "obsessing" for simply remaining faithful to the OP?
Who cares whether Satan knew or not? That makes absolutely no difference.

You are having this discussion with me, are you not? I care. It has bearing on whether your position holds weight or not.
 
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oldhermit

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That is indeed important, and I incorporate it into a great deal of my theology and practice. But the focus of this thread is defined by the OP:
"Paul's Thorn In The Flesh = Not a Sickness but a Messenger of Satan to buffet me." She then provides a link to Wommack, where he presents the argument that the reference is to a angel of Satan, sent to raise up persecution against Paul.

Why am I "obsessing" for simply remaining faithful to the OP?
What I am asking you to examine is certainly not in conflict with the OP. If you do not wish to address those matters, just say so.


[/QUOTE]You are having this discussion with me, are you not? I care. It has bearing on whether your position holds weight or not.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense.
 

Hidden In Him

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What I am asking you to examine is certainly not in conflict with the OP. If you do not wish to address those matters, just say so.

I would most gladly love to address that, but you need to deal with this one first or we may be chasing rabbit trails forever without getting anywhere. You appear intent on evading and deflecting, which is not something that instills much confidence in those who discuss things with you.
Nonsense.

Hermit, you are dismissing again, instead of answering questions. Anyone who reads this thread in going to know you were refusing to answer questions directly, with the natural assumption being that you couldn't actually defend your position. And because you couldn't, you resorted to things like labelling. I'm sure you won't like this statement very much, but your normal habit is to turn to the various tactics one uses when he can't defend his position very well.

But I'm not into debate for debate's sake, i.e. for the sake of simply appearing to "win"? That's not supposed to be the goal of discussing the word together, so maybe we should bow out at this point, at least from each other anyway.

Like I said, maybe we'll come across a topic someday where we are more in agreement with each other. Love always hopes.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 
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oldhermit

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I would most gladly love to address that, but you need to deal with this one first or we may be chasing rabbit trails forever without getting anywhere. You appear intent on evading and deflecting, which is not something that instills much confidence in those who discuss things with you.


Hermit, you are dismissing again, instead of answering questions. Anyone who reads this thread in going to know you were refusing to answer questions directly, with the natural assumption being that you couldn't actually defend your position. And because you couldn't, you resorted to things like labelling. I'm sure you won't like this statement very much, but your normal habit is to turn to the various tactics one uses when he can't defend his position very well.

But I'm not into debate for debate's sake, i.e. for the sake of simply appearing to "win"? That's not supposed to be the goal of discussing the word together, so maybe we should bow out at this point, at least from each other anyway.

Like I said, maybe we'll come across a topic someday where we are more in agreement with each other. Love always hopes.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
I think you and I are done here.
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Paul's Thorn In The Flesh=Not a Sickness but a Messenger of Satan to buffet me.

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
(2 Cor. 12:7-10
In vers
e 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, “The messenger of Satan to buffet me.” This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as “messenger” here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul’s thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him.
http://www.awmi.net/reading/t

If you see how people treat the mentally ill of the world when they hear voices, you could see how this thorn in the flesh would keep people from exalting Paul higher than they ought to.

That means the Lord can minister through the mentally ill as through any one else because the Lord is not limited in whom He ministers through or to. As in all things, every believer is to prove all things by Him, no matter how famous or infamous the believer is since Jesus is our Good Shepherd.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
 

APAK

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Depending upon which translation you use, ἄγγελοs has been translated in many instances as angel when it should have been translated as messenger. It is always context that determines which. In this particular instance, the vast majority of the body of Greek scholarship translate it here as messenger, and I agree with their decision. From your arguments you do not seem to have a very strong background in Greek so I am not going to try to debate this particular point with you any further.

Clearly, this was of God's doing. The purpose was so that Paul would not be self-exalting because of the measure of grace given to him. This does not work in Satan's favor. Satan does not profit anything is Paul is humbled. Paul's persecutions were a matter of divine edict - "I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake." This was God's idea, not Satan's. Satan was just a tool.

Very good insight..

Yes, the thorn in the soulish mind and even materializing into a physical ailment, at times, is God's way of humbling us to refocus in sanctification in the direction and pace he wants us to be at. Each believer has a pace of maturity that is different as we move toward perfection in the likeness of Christ.

Some believers get more thorns that others...and yes God is in total control of these planted thorns - to keep them embedded or pulled out.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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oldhermit

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Very good insight..

Yes, the thorn in the soulish mind and even materializing into a physical ailment, at times, is God's way of humbling us to refocus in sanctification in the direction and pace he wants us to be at. Each believer has a pace of maturity that is different as we move toward perfection in the likeness of Christ.

Some believers get more thorns that others...and yes God is in total control of these planted thorns - to keep them embedded or pulled out.

Bless you,

APAK
In Paul's case, his thorn in the flesh was the persecutions he was given to endure. What is remarkable, is how he was able to endure these things without being psychology overwhelmed.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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In Paul's case, his thorn in the flesh was the persecutions he was given to endure. What is remarkable, is how he was able to endure these things without being psychology overwhelmed.

That thorn in the flesh being a messenger of Satan to buffet him in the flesh would be hearing voices that accuses him. That would be a thorn in the flesh that would cause others not to exalt him higher than they ought to. That is how people treat those with "mental illness" and so that has to be Paul's thorn in the flesh.

Because believers exalts other believers for their martyrdom and their persecution for the cause of Christ, and so that can hardly be a thorn in teh flesh that would prevent believers from exalting him higher than they ought to.

Some believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was his failing eyesight, but again, that hardly prevents believers from exalting him higher than they ought to think.

2 Corinthians 12:7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So being persecuted physically or having failing eyesight does not prevent Paul from being exalted above measure, but hearing voices that accuses him by a messenger of the devil to buffet him in the flesh would suggest strongly what people would label as a mental illness. That would certainly prevent people from exalting Paul higher than they ought to. Nothing else fits the description.
 

oldhermit

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Here is how Paul dealt with his thorn in the flesh.

In Phil.4, Paul opens a line of reasoning in verses 4-7 that presents us with a formula for psychological soundness. He begins by linking one's potential for psychological soundness to the unseen.

"Rejoice in the Lord always; again, I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

These non-context dependent character traits are critical elements for the psychological soundness of the believer. The circumstances of one's life are to have no influence upon the state of mind of the Christian.
1. Rejoice in the Lord always.
2. Display a gentle spirit.
3. Be anxious for nothing.
4. Be thankful
The appeal in these matters is to the unseen world - "Let your requests be made known to God." The result then is the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, "will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." How is it possible? In verse eight Paul provides us with eight non-natural variables that we regard as virtues.

"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things."

These eight variables are a set of representational controls that serve as the foundation for psychological soundness. These representational controls allow us to govern our behavior in a way that is completely contrary to our circumstances. I call these non-natural variables because:
1. These things do not originate from the natural world of human experiences.
2. They are external to ALL circumstances.
3. These variables proceed from the character of God.
4. These variables are not relevant to time nor are they controlled by time.
5. These variables allow us to bear up even under the most difficult of circumstances. I call these circumstances an "experiential index". An experiential index is a catalog of events in a person's life that are limited to time. In 2Cor. 11:23-28, Paul rehearses for us some of the events in his life that made up his experiential index.

"...In far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches."

In looking at this list of circumstances it is important we understand that these never represent a closed system. It is in the midst of all of these experiences that Paul says in Phil 4:11, "I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am." Contentment in the mindset of horrific, catastrophic, or even life-threatening circumstances is a learned behavior. When Paul says he has leaned to be content in the midst of these experiences it is obvious that this knowledge is not obtained on the basis of his experiential index. He did not learn contentment from his sufferings. He learned it through the exercise of these non-natural virtues. All of the difficulties he rehearses are things that were imposed upon his body yet, these things are regarded by Paul as non-determinate. In other words, he does not allow them to control his mind. He does not allow them to determine his behavior or his psychology. Of course, these are pragmatic experiences imposed on his flesh that cannot simply be ignored and demand a psychological response. What must govern the Christian's response to his experiences are those non-natural variables that are stronger than the experiences themselves. These are things that strengthen the inner man and enable us to rejoice even in the mist of such difficulties. How does Paul learn contentment in the midst of such experiences? By cultivating a mind that is governed not by the circumstances or their effects on one's life but by the representational controls given in Phil. 4:8 and 2Cor 4: 4-7 where he adds to this list such virtues as endurance, knowledge, patience, and kindness. Paul regards all these hardships as nothing more than ephemeral concerns. In other words, these are things that are limited to time. They are temporary experiences that exist only briefly. Paul says in 2Cor. 4:17 that these things are but “light momentary afflictions” that are not even worthy to be compared with the eternal weight of glory. This is an extraordinary statement. Such experiences are by design intended to destroy the outer man and unless representational controls are in place that will allow us to properly contextualize these experiences, the inner man will also be overwhelmed and destroyed.

Paul says in Phil 4:13, “I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.” This is a statement that is very often taken out of its context and much abused. This statement is linked to the things Paul says he has learned. What has he learned? He has learned to:
1. Rejoice
2. Not be anxious
3. Be thankful
4. Get along with humble means
5. Live in poverty
6. Live in abundance
7. Be filled
8. Be hungry
9. Endure need
10. Be content in all things. Why? Because he can do all things through Christ who strengthens him. "Do all things" is contextual to all the things he has learned to endure.
 
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Phoneman777

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And there is much evidence in the scriptures to support the vision impairment concept. Certainly more so than any literal demonic oppression.
Yes, but as in the case of "demons/women sex to produce giants", although "sons of God" is just as appropriately a reference to God-fearing humans as it is to angelic beings, Christians today for some reason seem unreasonably drawn to exotic, exciting, wild and weird interpretations of Scripture. Probably because they reject the solid, well established plausibility of Protestant Historicism in favor of Jesuit Futurism or Preterism, which requires a mindset which bends and twists Scripture to such extremes that the practice seems to spill over into other areas of Scripture like the "giants" or the "messenger of Satan".
 
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Phoneman777

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I heard that long ago...but threw it out as soon as I heard it. Ha!
Sounds like a man trying to make something fit, which isn't really there at all!

I believe Paul meant just what he said...when he told us what it was... "a messenger of Satan ..." So, why do we believe the other things that Paul tells us, ybut don't believe something that he clearly says? hmmmm

Bless you :)
Paul also said PLAINLY "we establish the law" so why aren't you and the rest of those professing Christianity in church on the Sabbath and keeping the Ten Commandments instead of keeping a man-made replacement "day of rest" for which the Papacy takes full credit and responsibility but which the Bible refers to PLAINLY as a "day of work" (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV) - the first day of the week ?
 

Phoneman777

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It has been a very long time since I have posted on this site but, I would like to examine this question of Paul's thorn in the flesh.
Let us open up the context of chapters 11 and 12.

The context is Paul's defense of his apostleship. If one is able to boast according to the standard of the flesh, then he has more reason to boast than anyone else and he begins to compile a list of reasons to prove why this is true, 11:16-28. Beginning in verse 22, he says, "Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I." These are all genealogical factors that he has in common with all other Jews. Then in verse 23, he begins to set forth a list of comparisons in which he is proven to excel above them all. "Are they servants of Christ? (I speak as if insane) I MORE SO; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death."

24. “Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.”
25. “Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.”
26. “I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;
27. “I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.”
28. “Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. From 11:29 through 12:8 he stresses the fact that these are all things that Paul regards as weaknesses of the flesh. These are things that are hard to endure and that he had the right to boast in the fact that he has suffered in the flesh more than all of them. In 12:6 he says that he does not wish to boast in these things, "... but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me."

In verse 7, he gives the paramount reason for his capacity for boasting which was "the surpassing greatness of the revelations." To keep him from boasting and exalting himself in this he was given a "thorn in the flesh." The "thorn" represents something that is external to the flesh but that is intrusive to the flesh. In spite of his petition from God to remove it, God says "My grace is sufficient for you." It is not through Paul's own power that he is able to endure these suffering that have been imposed upon his flesh (not to mention the psychological stress that accompanies these types of experiences), it was the grace of God that enabled him to endure them and to continue to preach in spite of them. The connecting statement that links all of this to gather is in verse 10 when he says, "THEREFORE." Whatever he says next is rooted in everything he has said up to this point and he connects it to the thorn that was given him. "Therefore, I am well content with weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions, and difficulties for Christ's sake. Why? Because "when I am weak THEN I am strong." The thorn made him weak. The grace made him strong. NOW, he is able to rejoice in his sufferings - in his thorn.

So, because of the "the surpassing greatness of the revelations," Paul was allowed to suffer all of these hardships - thorn in the flesh - in order to keep him from exalting himself. One is not so likely to be self-exalting when he is having the hide stripped from his back with a scourge or having to go hungry or floating around in the sea or having his bones broken from being beaten with rods or lying in a pit left for dead after having been stoned. God allowed these things so that Paul would learn humility in spite of the exalted status that God had granted him. Remember what God told Ananias in Acts 9:16 "I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

I know this is a very brief exegesis of this text and I certainly do not claim it to be infallible. It is possible that I have missed it but, it seems to me that Paul has been very clear in explaining the nature of the thorn that he had been given. If anyone has a better exegesis of this text than this, I am certainly open to correction.

His problem with his eyesight has been a favored speculation even among many commentators. We do know from Gal. 6:11 that Paul seems to have had some type of deficiency with his eyes but the nature of what the thorn was seems very clearly defined in the context of 2Cor. 12. Paul uses three different descriptive terms all of which refer to the same thing. He calls it a 'thorn in the flesh', a 'messenger from Satan', and 'my weaknesses'. These weaknesses are not of a singular nature. They are described as insults, distresses, persecutions, and difficulties all of which are in the plural. I do not doubt that his seeming deficiency with his eyes would certainly fall within this menagerie of weaknesses. The 'thorn in the flesh' is simply a descriptive term which he employed to describe a host of things he was called to endure for the cause of Christ. Their purpose was to keep him humble in the midst of his exalted position. It is hard to be proud and self-exalting when someone is beating the hide off of your back with a scourge or breaking your bones with rods or stoning you. These types of experiences are by their very nature, humbling.
It's far easier to debunk this idea of a "literal demon" with just pointing out the writing style of the Hebrew people. Paul's use of "Hebrew Chiasm" is well established, and we need not look long to find it:

(Symbolic "A" = "thorn in the flesh" <<<=>>> (Symbolic "B") "messenger of Satan"

The reason why so many Christians buy into Jesuit Preterism or Jesuit Futurism is they completely throw out "Hebrew Chiastic Structure" which is the glue which keeps correctly interpreted eschatology from unraveling into the many popular but false, splintered ideas that swirl around today.