Pay Your Tithe OR Spend Eternity In Hell?

[[email protected]]

-- Rjp, please get real.

Nowhere after any one of the Ten Commandments given from God does it say they will "burn in hell" if they don't obey them.

According to what you are shoveling, that means that since it doesn't give that specific warning after each one, people who choose to ignore them won't face ever face that possible repercussion.


If God calls you to do something and you choose to live a life of disobedience instead of following His instructions, what happens after you die? Exactly.

And God DID indeed require to Israelites to tithe in the Old Testament:

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed
thee? In tithes and offerings.
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole
nation." - Malachi 3: 8-9.

God Himself said he was being ROBBED because they weren't giving Him His "tithes and offerings."

When God the Almighty is obviously upset because He feels you have robbed Him, does he really need to include the "burn in hell" disclaimer for disobedience? Please...


As far as the New Testament goes, I see nothing where people are required to give 'tithes and offerings' to the church under threat of 'burning in hell,' but we will indeed, when we stand before God, have to account for what we did with our money. All of it.

If you sat in the pews of a church for years, but did not help to support them financially other than to give a few buck during a specific drive or when a specific charity is mentioned, I think God is going to have a problem with that.

Will you be able to say, "But Lord I give large amounts to other charities that helped feed the poor and spread your word?" I would assume so.

But it doesn't seem right that you would go to a church that gives you an outlet for worship, instruction on how to follow God, and help develop your relationship with Christ.
If enough people like you do that, then that church is hindered in it's ability to help those God directed them to assist.
That then, I believe, would be on your head.


But that's just me, pointing and laughing at the guy hollering from the choir loft....

Did you read the lead question on this post at all? Apparently you didn't. Let me quote it again for your benefit.

"Pay your Tithe or Spend Eternity In Hell?"

This is the question I answered directly and despite your venomous intent you didn't answer it either.

My answer is a simple 'no, you will not spend eternity in hell for failure to pay the religious tax'.

It is a lie and a hypocrisy to tell a man that salvation is free and then to tax him for the remainder of his earthly life.
If this is what it means to be a church member, then it is better not to have joined at all.

This tithing business is nothing less than fear mongering. Is that what Christianity is all about? Is it? If so, then the church has fallen to the level of lying bankers and a poor group it is at that.

In direct answer to your assertions that I sat in church for years and gave nothing, I submit that what I or anyone else give or don't give is none of your business. You have here appointed yourself some sort of potentate of the tithing law and ordinance and now assume the authority to damn anyone who doesn't fit into your category of giving. Quite an attitude you've got there, buddy.

Every one of my posts has published the intent that godly giving is meant to spring from the heart, not the law. Apparently that particular flavor is a subject of ridicule on your part. So be it. I suppose the attitude of joyful giving taught in the Bible is a joke to you. If so, your scholarship leaves much to be desired if indeed you seek truth at all.

If I may be so bold as to paraphrase Our Lord, giving is not meant to be tracked. One's right hand is not to know what the left is doing. And if one's hand is not to know, what business is it of yours which hand has given and how much? (And another reason I only give cash.)

As for the rest, it was only after years of donations as well as sitting on various committees, did I discover the mechanics of third party handling and mishandling of data. It carries a dangerous risk to those who innocently 'pay up' on Sunday morning. If one knows the risk and chooses to ignore it, then that is one's privilege. Knowing the danger and not transmitting it to others is irresponsible and I choose not to leave others in the dark if possible. If the reader knows this and continues to bury his or her head in the sand anyway, then the onus of the consequences are on your head. My hands are clean.

I sat in a church once long ago that was pastored by a very Godly and humble man. He taught long and often that if anyone did not have joy when they gave he didn't want it. The church didn't want it and that it should remain in your wallet. In another city I sat in a church with a table and a calculator on the stage. After the offering was given the tally was calculated right there in front of everybody and if the sum didn't match the assigned target amount for that week another offering was taken. It was called a 'love offering' and the basket would be passed again and again until they got what they wanted. I saw it done four times one day.

Judge for yourselves which was God's way and which was man's way - and which do you prefer? While you're at it tell me if I'll burn in hell for standing to my feet and leaving the church of the calculated gifts and running to the one that chose to give out of love and joy instead.

If you prefer the law remember that you will be judged by the law.
If you prefer grace then the judgment has already been taken by Christ.

I prefer the latter.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[KingJ]

Wow. Axehead, you've had some bad experiences with churches, and I'm sorry you've had to go through that. I've never been a part of any church that resembles what you are describing, and I never would be. Not every church out there is money hungry and constantly thinking about the coin. There actually are churches whose first love is Christ, and their primary concern is touching people's lives for the Kingdom of God. It's the churches that you are describing that give us all a bad name.

Unfortunately, even the churches with good motives have to pay bills. Thankfully, there are a lot of good hearted people who see the fruits of what these godly churches are doing, and they support those works from a giving heart.

Having read the last 3 pages here, I agree with you Forrest.

To ignore the OT is retarded. Every law written was written for a reason. God wasted His time? If God says something...it remains forever! We just have to realise that God said / did one more thing for us, namely, the cross. We have to look at the law in light of this! As NT children of God we can fulfil the law more! We can grasp the heart of God behind the law! So on tithing, it is painfully obvious that He wanted His people in full time ministry to be supported on a regular basis. We need to do that!! It saddens God if we don't! We have to see how He went to great lengths to enforce this with His extreme blessings and extreme curses.

Conclusion: Pay your tithe and more as the Lord lays it on your heart. Pray for those who preach tithing related blessings and curses! As NT teaching is to give not expecting anything in return! If any blessing or curse is preached, the condition of our heart becomes irrelevant.

 

[clark thompson]

I often tought if my money went to help people first I would not mind giving more than I do but for most churches most of the money is going to pay the pastors and the way I see it is their is a need they should take a pay cut to help people even if they have to move in a home the sixe of the rest of the church instead of a huge and fancy house

 

[jiggyfly]

Here is a look at the old testament tithe.


22 “You must set aside a tithe of your crops—one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year.23 Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Doing this will teach you always to fear the Lord your God.24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe.25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen.26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.28 “At the end of every third year, bring the entire tithe of that year’s harvest and store it in the nearest town.29 Give it to the Levites, who will receive no allotment of land among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work

Deut 14:22-29 (NLT)

 

[mjrhealth]

Last night I gave, today again I will give,yet I dont attend church, I give to those who have a need, Pastors only need Jesus, and when they find Him He will provide there needs, not there wants. See I did as Jesus asked, not what the church wants.

In All His Love

 

[Foreigner]

MrHealth, you conveniently ignore what you actually said that I commented on.

You said:

"In the NT, there is no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell if one does not contribute to the church.
In the OT, there is no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell if one does not contribute to the priests or the temple."

I pointed out - successfully voiding these silly statements ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ - that there is also "no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell" after any of the ten commandments that God Himself provided us.

So, according to your reasoning, disregarding any or all of God's Ten Commandments could not cause you to end up in hell, either.

I also pointed out that in the O.T. God DID INDEED expect people to tithe:

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed
thee? In tithes and offerings.
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole
nation." - Malachi 3: 8-9.

God Himself said he was being ROBBED because they weren't giving Him His "tithes and offerings."

When God the Almighty is obviously upset because He feels you have robbed Him, does he really need to include the "burn in hell" disclaimer for disobedience? Please...

I will rephrase it for you:
If the Lord God Almighty was angry because you were ROBBING Him, and you didn't turn away from that practice, do you really think that when you stand before Him one day, He is going to say, "No biggie?"


And as far as this ridiculous statement from you:
"Why do we exercise the hypocrisy of saying that salvation is free and then demand a religious tax once a man is converted?"

First off, it is not a tax and your acceptance or participation in the church doesn't hinge on it.
And if you try to claim "some churches do" I am going to call baloney.

Second off, do you really think God expects nothing from those give their lives to Him?
If you are a Christian but do not love, He will say to you - even if you point out that you did healings and prophecied in his name - that He never knew you.

And then there's the little matter of the sheep and the goats: He will tell the goats, "Depart from me you cursed ones."
Why? Because they didn't feed the hungry, visit the sick or imprisoned, clothe the naked - AS HE APPARENTLY REQUIRES.
Sure SOUNDS like God has expectations of people that are saved.

According to your standards, this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ is some sort of "tax" as well.

I have never claimed tighing to be required or even proper.
But God DOES expect us to support the less fortunate with the blessings he bestows on us.

I am pretty sure that if you didn't give 10% of your earnings to your church, but gave a higher percentage to charities that feed the poor, provided relief for the abused, clothed the naked, ministered to the sick and imprisoned, He isn't going to tell you that you didn't do what you were supposed to do.



And as far as when I said:

"If you sat in the pews of a church for years, but did not help to support them financially other than to give a few buck during a specific drive or when a specific charity is mentioned, I think God is going to have a problem with that.
Will you be able to say, "But Lord I give large amounts to other charities that helped feed the poor and spread your word?" I would assume so.
But it doesn't seem right that you would go to a church that gives you an outlet for worship, instruction on how to follow God, and help develop your relationship with Christ.
If enough people like you do that, then that church is hindered in it's ability to help those God directed them to assist.
That then, I believe, would be on your head."

....the YOU I was talking about was EVERYONE IN GENERAL. Your ego prevented you from seeing that.

You have already said MULTIPLE TIMES on this board that you do not attend church. Why then would you think I was talking about you.

Or for that matter, why then should your opinion on this matter be taken seriously anyway?

You seem to reject that fact that there are actually churches out that that are operating in obedience to Christ.

Your opinion here - over and over - has been that all churches are corrupt and they do more harm than good.

Just because you haven't found a church that doesn't match YOUR criteria doesn't mean there aren't scores of churches out there that fulfill GOD'S criteria.

But that's just me, still pointing and laughing at the guy shouting from the choir loft....




.

 

[marksman]

To ignore the OT is retarded.

Where does it say that in scripture?

Every law written was written for a reason. God wasted His time? If God says something...it remains forever!

If that is the case why do most Christians say we don't have to keep the fourth commandment?

So on tithing, it is painfully obvious that He wanted His people in full time ministry to besupported on a regular basis.

The concept of full time ministry does not appear in the NT so it would be very difficult for God to want people in so called full-time ministry supported.

We need to do that!! It saddens God if we don't! We have to see how He went to great lengths to enforce this with His extreme blessings and extreme curses.

I am sure what really saddens God is churches spending $20 million on buildings when some of his children cannot afford to eat even one meal a day.

 

[KingJ]

Where does it say that in scripture?

The OT is not scripture?

If that is the case why do most Christians say we don't have to keep the fourth commandment?

Please re-read my post.

The concept of full time ministry does not appear in the NT so it would be very difficult for God to want people in so called full-time ministry supported.

What do you think God would want for those that are? Just because Paul made tents does not mean that 1 Tim 5:18 is void! For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

I am sure what really saddens God is churches spending $20 million on buildings when some of his children cannot afford to eat even one meal a day.

Yes, but that is a seperate issue!

Last night I gave, today again I will give,yet I dont attend church, I give to those who have a need, Pastors only need Jesus, and when they find Him He will provide there needs, not there wants. See I did as Jesus asked, not what the church wants.

In All His Love

Giving is good, but your giving is 100% out of line with God's intention behind tithing. You ignore all the scripture I gave you in the other thread on the importance of church? Do you even care about God's reasoning behind tithing? You have absolutely NO respect for missionaries or those in full time ministry?

You say 'Jesus will meet their needs', so if you are not, you are openly admitting that you are NOT in submission to Jesus? How do you think Jesus meets our needs? Money falls from heaven?

 

[jiggyfly]

When one keeps Malachi 3 in context it is easy to see that it was the priests that were robbing God.

In light of the scripture posted from Deut, 14 is there anyone here who is actually tithing scriptural?

 

[Foreigner]

When one keeps Malachi 3 in context it is easy to see that it was the priests that were robbing God.

-- Actually, that is incorrect.
Whether you read just the scriptures quoted, chapter 3 as a stand-alone, or the entire book of Malachi, you can easily see that is not the case.

 

[jiggyfly]

-- Actually, that is incorrect.
Whether you read just the scriptures quoted, chapter 3 as a stand-alone, or the entire book of Malachi, you can easily see that is not the case.

Who was responsible for bringing the tithes and offerings into the temple?

 

[Foreigner]

Who is responsible for bringing the tithes and offerings to those who bring them into the temple stores?

Malachi 3:9 points out that it is the 'whole nation' that is ripping off God, not just the priests:

"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!" - Malachi 3:9 (nasb)

According to your reasoning, the good and faithful people of Israel, who have all been completely faithful in their tithes and offerings to God, are "stealing from God" because because - and only because - the priests are skimming what they put in the store houses.

I don't think so.

 

[Axehead]

I posted this in the other "tithing" thread, which is not necessarily wrong, but this is the one where Malachi is currently being spoken of.


Malachi 3:8-12 DOES NOT TEACH TITHING AS IT IS TAUGHT TODAY!!

This scripture in Malachi has to be the scripture that is most often used for the topic of tithing. It also happens to be the most misunderstood and misinterpreted passed in the Bible.


Words have meaning, but today a different meaning has been given to words. Two people can use the same words, but are not conveying the same meaning. But not everyone uses sound principles of biblical interpretation.

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

To see Malachi 3:8-12 in its context, we must look at chapter 4, verse 4.
Mal 4:4 - Remember ye the law of Moses my servant...with the statutes and judgments.

All through Malachi's message to Israel, he was imploring them to return to a pure practice of the Law. One part of his message was for the people to fulfill the laws of tithes and offerings.

The first thing we need to observe is this: The practice of paying tithes was an important part of the Law of Moses.

Do you know and understand this?? WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!

One of the major doctrines of the New Testament is that we are no longer under the LAW.

Paul ran into many that were trying to put new Christians under the Law of Moses, but Paul and other writers of the NT made it very clear that the Law has no jurisdiction over Believers in Jesus Christ -- WHO was the fulfillment of the Law.

Tithes and Offerings were such a big part of the Law that we would have to have some very clear teachings in the NT that these were not included in arguments against the Law. And, in fact, no such teachings were given and cannot be found in the NT. There are only 3 verses that mention tithes in the NT (not very many for such a MAJOR topic). And not one of them is advocating a system of tithes that should be practiced by New Testament Believers.

What Did Malachi Mean When He said, "Tithes and Offerings"?

Here is what modern day Preachers say it means. You probably have heard many other ones. They get quite creative in their "exposition" of the Word.

They say that a tithe is ten percent of your income which you must pay to the local church. And, only after you have paid your tithe are you in a position to give. That, they say, is what an offering is.

They never mention to you that there are 3 tithes in Malachi and what they were referring to. That is why the word is plural (tithes). There were 3 different purposes and 3 different ways that they were carried out. The word "offerings" is also in the plural and refers to 7 types of offerings, each having a specific purpose and a specific ritual that must be carried out.

I am not going to write all this out, but I will give you the references and you can look them up.

Three Different Tithes:
1. To the Levites for Their Maintenance. Numbers 18:21,24
2. For the Lord's Feasts and Sacrifices. Deuteronomy 14:22-26
3. Every Third Year a Tithe for the Poor. Deuteronomy 14:28,29

Some people debate whether there were 2 or 3 tithes, but I see these three.

What did Malachi have in mind when he said "offerings"? Did he have someone's personal income above and beyond 10% in mind?

Seven Different Offerings: (Using Zondervan Bible Dictionary)

1. Sin Offering - First mentioned at the consecration of Aaron, Exodus 29:10 and was a special expiatory sacrifice. A bullock was killed before the bronze altar and on its horns part of the sacrificial blood was smeared. The remainder was dashed against the base of the altar and the fat burned ceremonially. The flesh and skin were taken outside the tabernacle and burned separately. The Law of Sin Offering: (Lev. 4:1-35; 6:24-30, etc) provided for acts of unconscious transgression, mistakes or other inadvertences. No atonement could be made for deliberate rebellion against the covenant and its provisions (Num 15:30). the worshiper normally laid his hand on the head of the sin offering, symbolically designating it as his substitute in the sacrificial ritual. Poor people were permitted to offer two turtle-doves or a small amount of fine flour. The flesh that remained after portions had been burned belonged to the priest and was eaten in the sanctuary precincts. (Lev 5:13). A special sin offering for the Nation took place annually on the Day of Atonement. A bullock and goat were sacrificed and their blood ceremonially smeared on the mercy-seat. Another goat was driven into the wilderness after symbolic transfer of communal sin (Lev 16:1-28).

2. Trespass Offering - (Lev 5:14-6:7), or guilt offering, signified expiation and restitution and availed for inadvertent offenses, false swearing and improper dealings with a neighbor. By itself the offering made atonement towards God, but an additional one-fifth was required as a fine to compensate a neighbor adequately. The sacrificial ritual involved the slaughter of a ram, and was similar to that of the sin offering, although the imposition of hands and the sprinkling of blood in the holy places were not mentioned. Special offerings were required for the cleansing of a leper (Lev 14:12-20) and a defiled Nazirite (Num 6:12). All guilt offerings belonged to the priests and were most sacred in character.

3. Peace Offering - Symbolized right spiritual relations with God, and was among the earliest of the sacrificial offerings. The worshiper, if an ordinary Israelite, coud bring a bullock, a lamb or a goat, male or female and the ritual followed that of the sin-offering (Lev 3:1-17). If the worshiper was a priest the fatty portions of the animal were removed and burned on the altar of God, while the blood was sprinkled at the base of the sacrificial altar. The ritual for a goat followed that laid down for a bullock.

4. Meal Offering - Or meat offering (KJV), was instituted when Aaron and his sons were consecrated (Exod 29:41). It was forbidden to be offered on the altar of incense (Exod 30:9), but was used when the tabernacle was completed (Exod 40:29), and invariably accompanied the morning and evening burnt offerings. The ordinary Israelite was required to bring a mixture of fine flour, oil and frankincense prepared in a variety of ways (Lev 2:1-16), but without the addition of leaven or honey. All cereal offerings were to be seasoned with salt. The ritual for a priestly offerer required him to remove a token handful and burn it together with oil and frankincense as a memorial on the altar. What was left was most holy, and became priestly property.

5. Drink Offering - Or libations were common in the patriarchal period (Gen 28:18; 35:14) and accompanied many of the sacrifices (Exod 29:40). they could not be poured upon the golden altar of incense (Exod 30:9) and were required as an accompaniment of all freewill and votive offerings (Num 28:9) and other established feasts (Num 28:14-31; 29:6-39). The reference in Deut 32:38 indicates that dring offerings were common features of heathen cultic rituals. Oil and wine, used separately or as a mixture, constituted the normal libation.

6. Wave Offering - One part of the ritual associated with the Peace offering

7. Heave Offering - offering involved the wave and heave offerings. Both were apparently inititiated at the consecration of the Aaronic priesthood (Exod 29:24-28).

Well, if you were able to get through this ( I found it interesting ) then you will have seen that most Christians know very little about the Law with its ceremonial requirement. Because if they did, they would reject the New Testament Law of Tithes and Offerings.

Malachi's hearers understood what he was talking about. They knew he was referring to a complex SYSTEM of tithes and offerings.

It is intellectually dishonest to equate or maybe I should say, REDUCE Malachi's words to simply mean "Ten Percent of your income is the tithe and anything above is the offering".

There is no scriptural basis to change the meaning of those words and no justification for putting NT Christians under the burden of the LAW by telling them that they are REQUIRED to PAY. Of course, this is all couched in sermons on "GIVING".

FACTS:
1. Deut 14:24-25 shows that TITHES have nothing to do with MONEY.
2. The OFFERINGS of Malachi are the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.

 

[marksman]

The OT is not scripture?

Thankyou for confirming it is not in scripture. If it was you would be able to quote chapter and verse.

Please re-read my post.

Please answer my question.

What do you think God would want for those that are? Just because Paul made tents does not mean that 1 Tim 5:18is void!.

He would want them to abandon man's ways of doing things and follow God's way as revealed in scripture.

Paul making tents confirms 1 Tim 5 as that is not about money.

Yes, but that is a seperate issue!

No its not. It is the issue. Where do we give our money. If you can't see that you should not be discussing it here because it is a fundamental.

 

[KingJ]

Marksman my friend, I have respect for you and value your insight in this and other posts ! But, we are going to have to avoid discussing this further. I see us only ending up in an argument. I will think about your view as I hope you do mine. God bless .

 

[marksman]

Marksman my friend, I have respect for you and value your insight in this and other posts ! But, we are going to have to avoid discussing this further. I see us only ending up in an argument. I will think about your view as I hope you do mine. God bless .

That's okay. One of the reasons I put things out here is that I want my beliefs to be tested and if anyone who can provide concrete scriptural evidence that what I believe is wrong, I am going to re-visit again.

I admit that I tend to keep to subjects that I have already done extensive study on, so I do come here with a good background in the subject.

I am not denominationally affiliated so I do canvass ideas from here, there and everywhere because I am not in the mindset that only my denomination knows the truth.

I am what you might call an ecumaniac.

 

[jiggyfly]

Who is responsible for bringing the tithes and offerings to those who bring them into the temple stores?

Malachi 3:9 points out that it is the 'whole nation' that is ripping off God, not just the priests:

"You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!" - Malachi 3:9 (nasb)

According to your reasoning, the good and faithful people of Israel, who have all been completely faithful in their tithes and offerings to God, are "stealing from God" because because - and only because - the priests are skimming what they put in the store houses.

I don't think so.

Well at least you recognize that the tithe pertained to the nation of Israel.

 

[[email protected]]

Apparently I've landed in a forum with a bunch of bankers, or worse - lawyers.

Whatever happened to grace?

Does anybody give a rats behind about it? Is the operation of grace in your lives, in your church, mentioned in the Bible at all?
That's the book written by a bunch of guys who had some crazy notion about GRACE and the blood of the lamb buying our redemption?

You who are eager to live BY THE LAW will be judged BY THE LAW. If you live by grace, then Jesus has taken the punishment for infractions of the law - including 9% tithing.

If giving is a requirement, then how much is enough? 10%? 10% of that 10%? The OT states that if you cannot give on the assigned day for some reason, you owe 10% interest on the ungiven donation the next time you contribute. Look it up. Do you feel a suction on your wallet yet?

How much is enough? Do you also owe 10% plus 10% of all the money you didn't give in those years of your life before you became enslaved by the tithe mongers?

How much is enough? How do you know that you've paid into the coffers of heaven the proper amount to ensure that God is pleased with you?

How much is enough? How do you know that you've paid enough to buy yourself a ticket past the pearly gates?

The answer is that you don't. No man does. Maybe that's why there isn't a clear picture in scripture about it. hmmm?

That's one of the unique qualities of the Christian faith among all other faiths on the planet. Or at least it used to be before all these good folk decided that bankers hours were in effect on Sunday morning.

All this business about tithing requirements is nothing more than a study in bovine scatology. Like a cheap preacher who always has one hand on his Bible and the other in someone else's pocket, the quotations and the firm statements of prideful (yes I said prideful) check writing is disgusting in the light of GRACE and God's love.

Do you give out of love or do you insist upon enslaving a man saved by the free grace of God? Wicked servants!

Why are so many here eager to establish legalism in the lives of believers? I submit that the spirit of tyranny is at work in their lives. I submit that the spirit of anti-christ, yes even of the worldly mind itself is hard at work forging chains upon the hearts of those who've been saved by grace and have found that cheerful giving is the spice of life.

IS GRACE A JOKE? Why are you laughing at it? If grace is an illusion, then we are all of us hopelessly lost in our sins. If that is true, then giving anything at all in church or out of it is an exercise in total futility, if not depravity.

IS HYPOCRISY A JOKE? If we teach that a man's salvation is free, then why do we insist that he submit to the chains of a religious tax for the rest of his natural life?

I read no logical or scriptural quotations here to oppose these two assertions. What? Are we now to rely upon character assassination and cheap humor as Mr. Foreigner does simply because he's lost the argument? Apparently so and it is accepted by one and all.

1. Grace. Does it not apply? If we live by the law we are judged by the law. If by grace, then there is no law at all.
2. Hypocrisy. Religious hypocrisy. If we are freely saved, then why do we owe a tax?

Are we not called to emulate Christ?
Or are we called as disciples of the pharisees - hypocrites and legalists one and all.

If we are saved by grace, what then of religious taxation? I submit it is illegal.

But go ahead ye of small faith and those who enjoy thrashing men with the barbs of the law. Who desire to punish men with legalisms that God did not intend. The world has been full of little Hitlers for a long time and Mr. Foreigner, who thinks grace is a joke, is not the last of the parade.

I am saved by the grace of God through the blood of the lamb.
I owe no man a single penny for the justification and fellowship with Christ I enjoy.
He has paid the entire price with His own blood and the gates of paradise are wide open to me because of Him.
The joke is on you Foreigner, for you have clothed yourself with chains - not liberty.

I pity those who are still slaves to their wallet and their offering baskets. You have your reward among men.

NO MAN CAN BRIBE GOD.

That's what all of this is really about.
You're dreaming if you think you can.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Axehead]

The worldly-church is forced to put laws upon people because they themselves do not know about grace and the people they are preaching to, know nothing about grace. Get a bunch of people together who do not know the Lord or have His Spirit, but want to prove to Him that they are worthy and you get a big mess of laws in order to ensure proper behavior and actions.

Those who know the Lord and His grace run from such perversions.

 

[Foreigner]

Well at least you recognize that the tithe pertained to the nation of Israel.

-- Wise up, huh? If you were to actually read what I have posted here you would see I have never said otherwise.
I have never claimed the tithing in Malichi 3 applies to the NT or today's Christian churches.

And at least you have finally realized that Malichi 3 was talking about ALL Israelis, not just priests and only priests.

The scripture itself bore that out.



No offense rjp, but your posts on this matter are inconsistent as they are incomplete. If you want a church and a pastor, you have to provide for them.
If you want that church to provide programs to assist others or to give to established charities, you have to provide for them.

You call it 'taxation' when it is no such thing.

You also admit that you do not attend a church. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

But that's just me, rolling his eyes at the guy hollering from the choir loft...


.