Pay Your Tithe OR Spend Eternity In Hell?

[KingJ]

We can learn a lot about a persons Christianity by looking at how they give!

If we give religiously we are still religious, no? and if we don't give, we fail to acknowledge how far God went to get His people to regularly support those in full time ministry.

Lol at your thread title Axehead ''Pay Your Tithe OR Spend Eternity In Hell?''. Any preacher saying that has yet to grasp a single chapter in the NT.

 

[Axehead]

We can learn a lot about a persons Christianity by looking at how they give!

If we give religiously we are still religious, no? and if we don't give, we fail to acknowledge how far God went to get His people to regularly support those in full time ministry.

Lol at your thread title Axehead ''Pay Your Tithe OR Spend Eternity In Hell?''. Any preacher saying that has yet to grasp a single chapter in the NT.

Allow me to correct you. First of all, this is not my thread title, KJ. And secondly, I don't judge or scrutinize other people regarding how they give or not. That is very superficial, don't you think?

Go back and see who started the thread. There are 60 posts in this thread and the person who started it did not continue to engage in conversation. Troll bomb if you ask me. And most of his other threads are the same.

 

[[email protected]]

-- So, if it doesn't say it in the New Testament, then it isn't to be considered?
So now the entire Old Testament is now null and void?

If you don't want to give your church 10% then don't.

But if you are going to your church every week to get spiritually fed, you owe your church something more than a token.

It is unfair to try to portray churches and their pastors as living "high on the hog" off your weekly giving.

If your church is worth its' weight in salt then besides upkeep and maint, pastor and staff salaries, gas and electric, publicaton costs and the like, they also have programs to assist the poor, homeless, abused, addicted, hospital visitations, jail ministry, missionary work, etc. etc. etc.

This all costs money. If you don't want to participate, fine. But God does expect you to participate, both financially and personally in addressing needs.

When he seperates the Sheep and the Goats, you are going to be placed in a specific group based on whether you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and imprisoned, etc.

Lamenting your church and stating you didn't feel they needed your money isn't going to do you much good..

Again, don't want to support your chuch? Fine.

But I can promise you that there will come a day when you have to account for what you did support....and more importantly, what you didn't.

Once again and it bears repeating, that the modern concept of tithing is a church dogma. It has no foundation in the Bible, either the NT or the OT.

In the NT, there is no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell if one does not contribute to the church.
In the OT, there is no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell if one does not contribute to the priests or the temple.

Giving is and always has been a side issue. The teaching is clear that charity is something one ought to do. God is our example. He gives so we as His children should give also.

More to the point a deep study is probably required on this one. A study I'm not going to bother to indulge in at this point. For those who do indeed want to dive in headfirst may I suggest a point of entry?

Tithing and giving in the OT, like killing, were directed at specific points, goals, purposes and seasons. There was a time to kill as well as specific groups and nations and times and there was a time NOT to kill. Likewise there were times when charity was asked for and times when it wasn't. Tithing was done in certain ways and at certain times. It was never a blanket deed.

For example, in the OT the first part of the harvest was to be given - NOT 10%. Think about it. It goes on and on and I won't bring up all the laws of which there are many. The Christian is supposed to exercise the fulfillment of the law and not be its legal representative.

Giving, which was always intended to be a personally fulfilling and satisfying experience*, has been corrupted by the religious elite and establishment into tradition, culture and restriction. It has become tainted in church at least by the greed of the receiver and the almost total lack of gratitude on their part. Why is it 'greedy' to keep that which one has earned, and not 'greedy' to demand it be given.

Why do we exercise the hypocrisy of saying that salvation is free and then demand a religious tax once a man is converted?

Nobody will answer that question I bet.

Did you ever get a thank you note from anyone at church for giving all the money you've paid over the years? It's considered bad manners to do otherwise when YOU receive a gift. Why is it ok for the church to take it and say nothing? It is, after all, a gift is it not? There is no, repeat no, legal requirement for any man to give any thing at all. None. Zero. Zip.

When was the last time anyone, that's ANYONE, thanked you visibly, graciously, and lovingly for writing a check to the church? That's the way God intended the TWO WAY process to be conducted, yet the church acts more like Scrooge on Christmas Eve than Bob Cratchet, whose last miserable penny is demanded of him.

Is it any wonder that the Christian religion is in serious decline? Where's the love that ought to complete giving? Nobody here has even mentioned that at all. It's legalism, first last and always.

And as far as I'm concerned your legalism sucks - big time. I will not give so much as a damaged penny to serve it.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

* Who has not experienced a thrill at Christmas on seeing a loved one open a present (perhaps expensive) - seen their reaction and surprise and felt deeply pleased themselves at having the privilege of being the giver? Truly we are all guilty at spending TOO MUCH money on our loved ones at such times. It is the sense of joy and satisfaction in the heart of the giver that is of more value than the object given...or the $$$. In church - where is the joy? Money simply moves from one pocket to another, that's all and there is nothing, absolutely nothing to show for it on the part of the giver (a little pride perhaps, but that's a long way from love).

 

[soupy]

Did you ever get a thank you note from anyone at church for giving all
the money you've paid over the years? It's considered bad manners to do
otherwise when YOU receive a gift. Why is it ok for the church to take
it and say nothing?

I did receive a thank note from my pastor, I bet others have also. He never demanded I give anything, I did it with a cheerful heart to give to my church.

In church - where is the joy? Money simply moves from one pocket to
another, that's all and there is nothing, absolutely nothing to show for
it on the part of the giver

In my church money does not move from one pocket to another. Why do you attend a church with such a practice? I see programs and people reached for Christ with my money. I don't give to gain joy, I give to His work, because He gives me joy. I do not tithe, I am a cheerful giver. No one in the church, except for (I think) two people know what I give, it is private for everyone.

 

[marksman]

-- So, if it doesn't say it in the New Testament, then it isn't to be considered?
So now the entire Old Testament is now null and void?

A very interesting response. One, it confirms that the NT does not teach tithing and two, because it doesn't then we must seek to justify it from the Old Testament.

I for one am not interested in having one foot in the law and one foot in the grace of God. Either I am a New Testament Christian (under the cross) or I am an Old Testament Christian under the Mosaic law. You can't be both.

If I am to be in both, I have to give up eating prawns, which In love.

But if you are going to your church every week to get spiritually fed, you owe your church something more than a token.

I don't think I made any mention about going to church and being fed.

It is unfair to try to portray churches and their pastors as living "high on the hog" off your weekly giving.

I never said anything about pastors living high on the hog.

If your church is worth its' weight in salt then besides upkeep and maint, pastor and staff salaries, gas and electric, publicaton costs and the like, they also have programs to assist the poor, homeless, abused, addicted, hospital visitations, jail ministry, missionary work, etc. etc. etc.

I did not talk about the value of a churches ministry.

This all costs money. If you don't want to participate, fine. But God does expect you to participate, both financially and personally in addressing needs.

I did not make any mention about addressing needs.

When he seperates the Sheep and the Goats, you are going to be placed in a specific group based on whether you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and imprisoned, etc.

I don't know how the lack of teaching about tithing in the NT is linked to these issues.

Lamenting your church and stating you didn't feel they needed your money isn't going to do you much good..

I didn't say anything about lamenting my church

But I can promise you that there will come a day when you have to account for what you did support....and more importantly, what you didn't.

That day holds no terror for me as I support what the NT teaches we should support and it is not religious institutions.

My feeling is that you have made assumptions according to your own prejudices and that to me is not any basis to form a biblical christianity as it is well known that so often the bible is made to fit our experience rather making our experience line up with the bible.

 

[williemac]

Marksman has hit the mark once again. Good reply.

 

[forrestcupp]

Before I say anything else, I just want to make it clear that I don't believe people who don't tithe will burn in hell for that reason.

The single most important command in the scriptures is................... ( Drum role)

Study to show theyself approved!

Hmmm. I could have sworn it was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength ... since that's what Jesus said, and all.

Here is a challenge for you (anyone). Can you show me any verse/s in the New Testament that says we are required to tithe 10% of our income to the church?

I have been looking for a long time but can't find any.

There is no concept of priest/laity in the New Testament so no one was paid to be "a pastor." The scripture clearly teaches the priesthood of ALL believers. The only people that received money on a regular basis (not a salary) were the Apostles who could not work whilst they were travelling and widows who devoted themselves to praying for the church.

I hate it when people say that tithing is never mentioned in the New Testament, when Jesus clearly says that you should do it.

Luk 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Jesus says that justice and the love of God are more important, but also that they shouldn't neglect tithing.

I also don't understand these arguments about the OT law of tithing not being for today because in the law it was only about sheep and farming. That argument doesn't even make sense. When the law was first given, it was given to shepherds and nomads. In those days, their means of living was raising livestock, farming, and bartering. They had to take care of each other. When the cultures evolved, giving was still important, but incomes began to come in different ways. Even by the time Jesus was here and the temple was still standing, people were starting to give money, rather than sheep and crops. Sure, they still made their sacrifices, but their giving was beginning to evolve according to types of income they had. To say that doesn't apply today to me because I don't raise sheep is ridiculous. Today, my income is money, so I'll give of what I have.

The Bible says that we are redeemed from the curse of the law. It doesn't say anywhere that we are excluded from the blessings of the law, though. I tithe with a cheerful heart because I appreciate and love my God. But I have also experienced the blessings of God opening up the floodgates of heaven, like it says in Malachi. People talk about that you should give with no strings attached, and you shouldn't expect anything of God because you tithe. But those same people give with strings attached, and want to know exactly where their money is going. If you're really giving to God and not man, why are you so concerned? Where's your faith? When you give money, it's not yours anymore; it belongs to God. If man squanders the money you gave to God, it's not your responsibility anymore. God still loves your offering.

The Old Testament is full of physical symbols of things that become spiritual under the new covenant. Tithing is one of those. In the OT, when they tithed to the storehouse, it was to store up food. Today, we tithe to the storehouse, which is the place we go for spiritual food.

The reason I think tithing is a good concept is because it gives people a good, reasonable measuring stick and standard. We know that giving is important, that can't be denied. But most people don't have any idea how much they should give. 10% is a pretty reasonable rule of thumb to follow. Maybe that's why God thought it was a good idea originally.

 

[soupy]

The reason I think tithing is a good concept is because it gives people a
good, reasonable measuring stick and standard. We know that giving is
important, that can't be denied. But most people don't have any idea how
much they should give. 10% is a pretty reasonable rule of thumb to
follow. Maybe that's why God thought it was a good idea originally.

I understand your thought, but what if the Lord wants to speak to another to give a different amount, wouldn't this 10% "rule" negate that. That said I agree a tenth is a good starting point, but each giver has a personal relationship with the Lord, He may have a different amount for you, maybe more, maybe less.
Also, I want to say I don't believe the "law" of tithing is a good concept, we should be "givers".

 

[forrestcupp]

I understand your thought, but what if the Lord wants to speak to another to give a different amount, wouldn't this 10% "rule" negate that. That said I agree a tenth is a good starting point, but each giver has a personal relationship with the Lord, He may have a different amount for you, maybe more, maybe less.
Also, I want to say I don't believe the "law" of tithing is a good concept, we should be "givers".

I think 10% should be a given starting point, and we should listen to the Spirit of God to speak to us about giving more. There is a point to faithfulness, and discipline, too. I'm committed to being a giver, even when I don't feel like giving. 10% is a great standard to go by to be faithful when I don't feel like giving. It was God's idea to begin with.

Let's be honest here for a minute. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and He doesn't need your money. We are not of this world, but we are still in it. The world operates on money, and just because you are a church, the bank isn't just going to pay your mortgage, and the utility companies aren't going to pay your bills just because you're a part of the Kingdom of God. I'm a part of a small church. If everyone just gave when they felt the Holy Spirit leading them, we would go under in a matter of months, and the lives that we are touching for Christ would lose everything spiritual they get from our church. Commitment and faithfulness are very important in the Kingdom.

But with these things in mind, I definitely agree with you that it's better to have a giving heart than to be condemned by a law. God loves a cheerful giver. He likes it when we give because He is the biggest giver of all. When we give, we resemble Him; we're a chip off the old block.

 

[soupy]

If everyone just gave when they felt the Holy Spirit leading
them, we would go under in a matter of months, and the lives that we are
touching for Christ would lose everything spiritual they get from our
church. Commitment and faithfulness are very important in the Kingdom.

Do you not trust others to be led by the Holy Spirit? Do you not have faith that God will provide?
You also said commitment and faithfulness are very important to the kingdom, but you preceding sentence says the opposite.
Do you, or do you not trust Him?

 

[forrestcupp]

Do you not trust others to be led by the Holy Spirit? Do you not have faith that God will provide?
You also said commitment and faithfulness are very important to the kingdom, but you preceding sentence says the opposite.
Do you, or do you not trust Him?

I trust God. But people aren't God; they're not perfect, including myself. We need guidelines. If we didn't need any guidelines and everything was just following the leading of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't need the Bible. Why do you have such a problem with having a 10% guideline and being open to giving more if the Spirit leads? In my experience, most people who don't believe in tithing, and they believe only in giving according to how they're led usually don't give nearly as much as people who believe in tithing, and give it out of a cheerful and grateful heart.

 

[soupy]

I agree we have the bible to read and follow God, it leads to a closer walk, along with the Holy Spirit.

I have no problem with using a tithe as a guideline or starting point, as I already said.
I am saying I do not agree with one person putting that rule or "law" onto another person, I don't see it in the Bible.

I have no idea how much each individual in my church gives (does your church make that public), I know my church does not teach tithing and I know it was successful buying a building to convert into church after many years paying very high rent.

Do you discuss giving with other people and they tell you they give less if they don't follow the rule of tithing? BTW, as a cheerful giver, I don't get up on Sunday morning or sit in the church thinking about how many bills to pull out of my wallet. I put thought and pray into giving first to my church and other different ministries.

Right now I am investigating giving to a new young church who needs a new building, determining whether to support buying a building or find a new rental building. I spend much time in prayer determining if I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to contribute to this small church because I care for the community who needs a Bible teaching church.

I can confirm not believing in tithing does not mean not giving.

 

[forrestcupp]

I agree we have the bible to read and follow God, it leads to a closer walk, along with the Holy Spirit.

I have no problem with using a tithe as a guideline or starting point, as I already said.
I am saying I do not agree with one person putting that rule or "law" onto another person, I don't see it in the Bible.

I have no idea how much each individual in my church gives (does your church make that public), I know my church does not teach tithing and I know it was successful buying a building to convert into church after many years paying very high rent.

Do you discuss giving with other people and they tell you they give less if they don't follow the rule of tithing? BTW, as a cheerful giver, I don't get up on Sunday morning or sit in the church thinking about how many bills to pull out of my wallet. I put thought and pray into giving first to my church and other different ministries.

Right now I am investigating giving to a new young church who needs a new building, determining whether to support buying a building or find a new rental building. I spend much time in prayer determining if I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to contribute to this small church because I care for the community who needs a Bible teaching church.

I can confirm not believing in tithing does not mean not giving.

For the first part of your post, I know these things about my church because I'm intimately involved. I'm the pastor of my small church, and I'm the only one on staff, other than a cleaning lady. On the pastoral side of things, it's my job to know my people. But also, unfortunately, I have the duties at this time to take care of administrative works as well, with proper accountabilities in place. In case you were wondering, I don't ever pressure tithing, and I could make more working full time at McDonald's than the housing allowance that I take from my church. I also don't discuss people's personal business with anyone. I only preach on giving when I feel God's leading, which usually ends up not being more than once a year. The Lord has always provided for our church, and He has used faithful givers to do it. Even during recent economic hardships, our church was doing better financially than ever, without my harping on giving one time.

My main motive for teaching about tithing and giving when I do is because I truly believe in and have lived in the blessings that come from being a giver. My wife has a great job, which allows me to not take a big salary from the church, and we practice what we preach; we tithe on everything we make from her job and mine, and give more as the Lord leads. Everyone I've known that practices tithing and giving out of a pure and grateful heart has shown great testimonies of how the Lord has blessed them when they began to submit that part of their lives to God. So from personal experience as well as the Word, you can see why I want others to experience this blessing. And we could also go back to that scripture where Jesus said you shouldn't neglect tithing.

As for the last part of your post, that is a great blessing that you are a giver. You are doing a beautiful and powerful thing for the Kingdom. Some people have a real gift and calling from God to be a giver, and it seems like you are one of those people. God bless you for that.

Edit: I should also add that I don't treat anyone differently according to their giving, not in the least.

 

[soupy]

My main motive for teaching about tithing and giving when I do is
because I truly believe in and have lived in the blessings that come
from being a giver.

I respect you teaching this if you truly believe it, it is most important to teach from the message in the Bible, not just personal experience, as you said. I just don't interpret the Bible to say we tithe today. This shouldn't lead anyone to believe they shouldn't give, just not under the law. That's just me.

I'm curious, since you are a one man show (so to speak) do you have accountability to anyone such as denomination? What would happen if you teaching went wrong. The reason I'm asking, this is a concern I have about the church I mentioned I am considering supporting for a new building. It is part of a larger church, but I don't know about the management for the future. I know the pastor answers to God, I know he and his wife are faithful, but I am to be a good steward of my money and wonder about what would happen if they left. okay so I've gone OT.

 

[forrestcupp]

I respect you teaching this if you truly believe it, it is most important to teach from the message in the Bible, not just personal experience, as you said. I just don't interpret the Bible to say we tithe today. This shouldn't lead anyone to believe they shouldn't give, just not under the law. That's just me.

The great thing is, the title of this thread is hogwash. This isn't one of those eternal salvation deciders. We love Jesus and trust in Him. And I totally agree with the idea that making tithe a law isn't healthy. We should be faithful and committed givers out of a loving, grateful, and obedient heart, rather than out of self condemnation from an empty law that we put on ourselves. 1 Samuel is a great example of that:

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

I'm curious, since you are a one man show (so to speak) do you have accountability to anyone such as denomination? What would happen if you teaching went wrong. The reason I'm asking, this is a concern I have about the church I mentioned I am considering supporting for a new building. It is part of a larger church, but I don't know about the management for the future. I know the pastor answers to God, I know he and his wife are faithful, but I am to be a good steward of my money and wonder about what would happen if they left. okay so I've gone OT.

Well, I'm the only one on staff, but it's not a one man show. That would be foolish and dangerous. We're non-denominational, but we have a lot of accountability measures in place. Our by-laws and Constitution actually lay out our articles of faith. If I teach anything contradictory to that, I can be removed. I have a board of outside seasoned ministers (actually only one at this time), to whom I'm accountable for the spiritual side of things. Also, since we decided to become incorporated for the protection of our people (which could be a huge discussion), we are required to have a Board of Directors, or trustees, which is the accountability for the legal and financial stuff. Then I also have an advisory council, made up of a few members of the church.

So I have tons of accountability. It's just that most of the day to day work of the church is my responsibility, since I'm the only one on staff other than the cleaning lady. Believe me, I'm extremely grateful that I don't have to do the cleaning.

 

[soupy]

The great thing is, the title of this thread is hogwash. This isn't one of those eternal salvation deciders. We love Jesus and trust in Him. And I totally agree with the idea that making tithe a law isn't healthy. We should be faithful and committed givers out of a loving, grateful, and obedient heart, rather than out of self condemnation from an empty law that we put on ourselves. 1 Samuel is a great example of that:

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.
Well, I'm the only one on staff, but it's not a one man show. That would be foolish and dangerous. We're non-denominational, but we have a lot of accountability measures in place. Our by-laws and Constitution actually lay out our articles of faith. If I teach anything contradictory to that, I can be removed. I have a board of outside seasoned ministers (actually only one at this time), to whom I'm accountable for the spiritual side of things. Also, since we decided to become incorporated for the protection of our people (which could be a huge discussion), we are required to have a Board of Directors, or trustees, which is the accountability for the legal and financial stuff. Then I also have an advisory council, made up of a few members of the church.

So I have tons of accountability. It's just that most of the day to day work of the church is my responsibility, since I'm the only one on staff other than the cleaning lady. Believe me, I'm extremely grateful that I don't have to do the cleaning.

Thanks, I've asked some questions of a pastor, you answers help me evaluate accountability.

 

[marksman]

I hate it when people say that tithing is never mentioned in the New Testament, when Jesus clearly says that you should do it.

I love it because it is the truth.

Luke 11:41 But as to what is within, give alms, and instantly all is clean in you. Luk 11:42 "But alas for you Pharisees! for you pay tithes on your mint and rue and every kind of garden vegetable, and are indifferent to justice and the love of God. These are the things you ought to have attended to, while not neglecting the others.

Nice try but totally out of context. Note verse 41 “give alms” and you will note that Jesus is telling them to give to the poor and needy not to the synagogue and he doesn't say “give 10%”

In verse 42 he is telling them they are all hung up about the minutest detail but what they should be worried about is justice and love so in fact he is deriding the giving of tithes.

The Old Testament is full of physical symbols of things that become spiritual under the new covenant. Tithing is one of those. In the OT, when they tithed to the storehouse, it was to store up food. Today, we tithe to the storehouse, which is the place we go for spiritual food.

This argument is pure supposition and has no basis in truth. I don't tithe, I give as God blesses me which is what it says we should do in Corinthians.

And I don't give to religious organizations that are not ordained by God, I give according to scripture which is to the household of God (people).

I will give you an example of where giving a tenth is contrary to God's word. A particular missionary organization sent out word that the Christians in the Orissa Province in India had their homes destroyed by Hindus and they were living under canvas on the streets.

They made an appeal for funds to finance the building of new homes for them. A one room house would cost $1,100.

As soon as I read this I knew I had to finance a new home for one of the believers, so I sent them a donation for that amount plus $50 to cover admin expenses.

Now if I had adhered to the unscriptural teaching of a tithe, I would have sent $25 because my income is $250 a week. I had $1,150 in my account (just) so I sent them what they asked for under God's direction.

The only thing that mattered to me was the joy of being used by God to provide a home for a homeless christian family who were suffering persecution.

When I see money being given to the church and $20 million is spent on new buildings and I see what is happening to the suffering church, it makes me want to puke because one of the reasons this is happening is the teaching that we tithe 10% to the church (religious organisation) and if you have a bit to spare, you can give it to those who need it most.

What we need in the church is more justice and love, not expensive buildings to boost the egos of church leadership.

I trust God. But people aren't God; they're not perfect, including myself. We need guidelines. If we didn't need any guidelines and everything was just following the leading of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't need the Bible. Why do you have such a problem with having a 10% guideline and being open to giving more if the Spirit leads? In my experience, most people who don't believe in tithing, and they believe only in giving according to how they're led usually don't give nearly as much as people who believe in tithing, and give it out of a cheerful and grateful heart.

Again, total supposition and without scriptural foundation. You obviously do not know the relationship the word has with the Holy Spirit.

First of all, when one becomes a believer, one is not automatically skilled at hearing the voice of the Spirit. That comes though time and experience. That means a direct word from scripture is very needed.

As one becomes skilled in hearing the Spirit's voice, if there is any doubt, one can refer back to scripture as the Spirit will not tell you to do something contrary to scripture.

As the scripture DOES NOT teach tithing 10% in the New Testament, it teaches to give as God has blessed you, then one is free to give according to the dictates of the Spirit. We don't need a 10% guideline as 1% right if that is what the Spirit says or 100% is right if that is what the Spirit says.

As far as using your experience on which to base a teaching, my experience is that people that give a 10% tithe to the church do not usually give any more.

What this means is that neither experience is valid to base a teaching on. We go by the revealed word of God. Once we know what that is we make our experience line up with scripture, not make the bible support our experience.

I think 10% should be a given starting point, and we should listen to the Spirit of God to speak to us about giving more. There is a point to faithfulness, and discipline, too

That is one of the problems in the modern church. They think then that becomes the doctrine. I have always taught that you can't make a decision about anything until you know what the scripture teaches and then you build your belief system from that.

If you build it on the basis of what you think, invariably the doctrine has to fit the experience and for that reason, what I think is irrelevant if I want to know the truth that sets me free.

 

[forrestcupp]

Another big problem with the modern church is that there are a thousand different interpretations of the scriptures, and every single one thinks that they are the right way, and everyone else is wrong. I could refute everything you said, scripturally, but it would be a pointless waste of my time. You're not going to change your mind about it, and I'm definitely not going to change my mind. Until someone can show me a New Testament scripture that says that I shouldn't tithe and be ready to give more, then I'll go ahead and do it with a cheerful and grateful heart, and I'll give even more when I'm blessed and the Lord leads me. I am a tither, but very year, my wife and I give much more than just 10% of our income.

So in those cases where there is no hope of ever agreeing, I'd rather focus on the things we agree about that actually do have to do with eternity, like:

Heb 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We obviously don't agree on this one point, but that doesn't mean that as brothers we can't love each other.

 

[Axehead]

Walking by the Spirit is contrary to man-made and man-dictated guidelines. Everything that is not of the Spirit is carnal flesh. Religious men have become quite skilled in making the flesh look holy and spiritual. Walking by the Spirit is onerous to the flesh. The flesh hates the Cross so it develops its own flavor of Christianity, one that accommodates the carnal nature. But, there is only one way to walk after Christ.

Those who walk after the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the religious flesh. Against such, there is no law (guidelines).

Once you put "laws" or "guidelines" on people, you are saying "we don't need the Spirit".

Axehead

 

[forrestcupp]

I guess we shouldn't tell people to stay away from fornication, either. There are plenty of New Testament laws that we should follow. Jesus even said that if we really love Him, we will keep His commandments. Truly man-made guidelines are not required, although there is the fact that God does give us a brain and wisdom for a reason. But even if you throw out every single man-made idea, that doesn't mean that there are now no God-made guidelines, and the Holy Spirit is just going to fly by the seat of His pants and come up with things for us on the spur of the moment. Jeremiah teaches that with the new covenant, God writes His law on our hearts.

I'm all about following the leading of the Holy Spirit. I love seeking His will and submitting to His flow. I need the Spirit to give me the grace to make it. He is what gives me life. It's exciting to see where He will next lead me, and what He will next speak to me. But to say that there are no guidelines is just dangerous and reckless. If you don't trust the Word as a foundation and standard to follow, then you might as well be in the New Age.