Pay Your Tithe OR Spend Eternity In Hell?

[Axehead]

I guess we shouldn't tell people to stay away from fornication, either. There are plenty of New Testament laws that we should follow. Jesus even said that if we really love Him, we will keep His commandments. Truly man-made guidelines are not required, although there is the fact that God does give us a brain and wisdom for a reason. But even if you throw out every single man-made idea, that doesn't mean that there are now no God-made guidelines, and the Holy Spirit is just going to fly by the seat of His pants and come up with things for us on the spur of the moment. Jeremiah teaches that with the new covenant, God writes His law on our hearts.

I'm all about following the leading of the Holy Spirit. I love seeking His will and submitting to His flow. I need the Spirit to give me the grace to make it. He is what gives me life. It's exciting to see where He will next lead me, and what He will next speak to me. But to say that there are no guidelines is just dangerous and reckless. If you don't trust the Word as a foundation and standard to follow, then you might as well be in the New Age.

You are twisting my words and adding to them.

I'm glad you are "all about following the leading of the Holy Spirit". Where did you learn that?

There are only 2 ways to walk, not 3.

After the Spirit (which agrees with the Word) or after the flesh which is enmity with the Spirit.

Walking after the Spirit is walking in obedience to God's spoken word to you personally. What more than the Spirit of God do you need!

Man's traditions ("guidelines") only have proven through the centuries to nullify the Word of God and quench the voice of the Spirit to the individual Believer.

 

[forrestcupp]

You are twisting my words and adding to them.

I'm glad you are "all about following the leading of the Holy Spirit". Where did you learn that?

Why are you being sarcastic? What I was trying to say is that I'm not one of those legalistic people who believe in theology only and not experiencing God, too. It's my heart's desire to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

There are only 2 ways to walk, not 3.

After the Spirit (which agrees with the Word) or after the flesh which is enmity with the Spirit.

Walking after the Spirit is walking in obedience to God's spoken word to you personally. What more than the Spirit of God do you need!

Man's traditions ("guidelines") only have proven through the centuries to nullify the Word of God and quench the voice of the Spirit to the individual Believer.

I don't disagree with anything you said here. The only thing I can't tell is how much importance you place on the Bible. It should be the standard by which every spoken word is judged. I love hearing the voice of the Lord. But on the other hand, I've known a lot of spiritual people, including myself, who have mistaken their own emotional thoughts and motives for the voice of the Lord. That's why we have the written Word of God, and we should pray for discernment.

One thing that is very heavy on my heart right now is that we need to be seeking God on how we can promote unity in the Body of Christ. It's possible for the Body to love each other and be in unity, even though we have theological differences. That's the desire of my heart.

 

[marksman]

What I was trying to say is that I'm not one of those legalistic people who believe in theology only and not experiencing God, too. It's my heart's desire to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

You would never know it judging by the legalistic comments you have posted.

You are twisting my words and adding to them.

Yes I would agree with you Axehead as he does that regularly.

 

[Axehead]

Regarding Believers:
"Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pgs. 130,131)

Regarding Unbelievers:
"One of the essential rules of the Christian life is never to ask a non-Christian to conduct himself like a Christian. If grace really renews a person; if the Christian life is already evidence of the life of someone who is in Christ; if obedience to the Christian ethic is the loving response of a recipient of grace to Him who has shown His love by bestowing grace, then how can one ask a man who has not received, or who did not know that he was under grace, to act as though . . . as though his person were renewed, as though he had experienced grace bestowed upon him, as though he knew that he was the object of God's love? The obligation placed upon him is nothing but restraint. The morality to which he submits can only be based upon the fear of punishment, and God becomes then the great condemner. That is what regularly happens in so-called Christian societies." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 104)

 

[[email protected]]

I did receive a thank note from my pastor, I bet others have also. He never demanded I give anything, I did it with a cheerful heart to give to my church.
In my church money does not move from one pocket to another. Why do you attend a church with such a practice? I see programs and people reached for Christ with my money. I don't give to gain joy, I give to His work, because He gives me joy. I do not tithe, I am a cheerful giver. No one in the church, except for (I think) two people know what I give, it is private for everyone.

You are in a unique situation Soupy. Very unique. I've been a Christian for over 40 years, attended many congregations as I moved from city to city and donated more than a dollar or two in my time. I have NEVER received a thank you, nor remember hearing a thank you delivered to the congregation as a whole.

I also see programs and people reached for Christ with some of the money I gave (personally I prefer to give directly - it avoids the middle man and middle man expenses if you know what I mean).

You don't give to obtain joy or satisfaction? I find that hard to believe. Perhaps you give out of duty. Duty can also be satisfying. See what I mean?
No one will give very much or very long if there isn't an intangible return on the investment. If they do, then they need to reexamine their actions. Seriously.

Knowing Jesus is all about liberty. It is for freedom that He has set us free. Giving is done because it springs from the heart like a fountain of grace, not because it is the rule of law. If anyone gives because of the rule of law they may as well give it up because they have put chains upon their money that God did not intend.

No one knows how much you give? Guess again. Unless you put cash in the basket every time it passes by, your giving is tracked. Most folks write a check and the check is documented. How do you suppose the bank deposits are made? Think, man. Church administration knows. The bank knows and if the bank knows Uncle Sam knows. Your state income tax authority knows and if your city charges income tax they know too. (Fortunately I live in Florida - no state income tax and no city income tax.)

If you attend a church larger than say two hundred members, the organization probably uses a third party to gather and manage contact lists; addresses, phone numbers, family data and of course donation records. If a third party manages the account, there is a great chance that the information can be hacked or sold. In many cases the pastor can't even delete the records of members who die or move away from the third party data base. I learned all this the hard way.

Don't believe me? Have a heart to heart talk with your pastor and/or elders about how church information and accounts are managed. If they will talk about it, that is.

By now you probably guessed that I give NO personal information to the church and only donate cash (and the occasional gift card). I by no means intend to incriminate any church administration. Quite the opposite, Christian leadership sometimes tends to be TOO trusting of third party managers as do the members of the church. Like blind sheep they are led to the shearing. And all the time everyone in church is quite literally being as honest as the saints they are, and I'm not being sarcastic at all with this remark.

Soupy, it sounds like you are a member of a unique group of people. If I were you I'd thank Our Lord generously for the place He has put you in. Not many are as fortunate or as blessed as you and I'm not being sarcastic here either.

it's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[forrestcupp]

You would never know it judging by the legalistic comments you have posted.

I hold great respect for the Word, and use the Word to help me discern whether I'm following the leading of Holy Spirit or something else. The Holy Spirit will always be kindred to the Word, and He will never contradict it. If He inspired the scriptures, then He would never contradict Himself. If I've seemed legalistic, it was only to bring some balance to what seemed like spiritual aloofness in conversations. I think that both the Word and flowing in the Spirit are very important. One without the other can be a dangerous situation.

Yes I would agree with you Axehead as he does that regularly.

If I have twisted anyone's words, then it was completely through misunderstanding, and not through intent. For that, I apologize.

You are in a unique situation Soupy. Very unique. I've been a Christian for over 40 years, attended many congregations as I moved from city to city and donated more than a dollar or two in my time. I have NEVER received a thank you, nor remember hearing a thank you delivered to the congregation as a whole.

...

By now you probably guessed that I give NO personal information to the church and only donate cash (and the occasional gift card).

The 2nd part is the answer to your first part. If you claim your giving by either writing a check or including your name and address with your cash, the church is required by law to send you a giving statement each year for tax purposes. It's usually common practice to include a "thank you" with the giving statement. If you just put cash in the plate without telling them you gave it, like tons of other people, how in the world would they even know to thank you? Usually for the first few weeks of the year when we have giving statements available, I make sure to thank the entire congregation while announcing the availability of the giving statements.

And for the record, churches who let their pastor dip into the offering just to bless him are breaking the law. Places actually do that, and they don't know they're breaking the law. Everything the pastor receives has to go through some kind of taxable income. Everything a church does has to be accounted for. By law, you're not even allowed to make change for someone out of the unclaimed cash in the offering. Not only that, but if someone asks for a church financial statement, the church must show them, without giving people's personal info away, within a certain amount of time. But on the other hand, asking for that info kind of takes away from giving with a cheerful heart to the Lord. Like I said earlier, if you're giving to the Lord, it's not yours anymore to try to control. If men take God's money and squander it, that responsibility isn't on your shoulders, if you gave it away. God still loves your offering.

 

[Foreigner]

Once again and it bears repeating, that the modern concept of tithing is a church dogma. It has no foundation in the Bible, either the NT or the OT.

In the NT, there is no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell if one does not contribute to the church.
In the OT, there is no statement whatsoever that one will burn in hell if one does not contribute to the priests or the temple.

-- Rjp, please get real.

Nowhere after any one of the Ten Commandments given from God does it say they will "burn in hell" if they don't obey them.

According to what you are shoveling, that means that since it doesn't give that specific warning after each one, people who choose to ignore them won't face ever face that possible repercussion.


If God calls you to do something and you choose to live a life of disobedience instead of following His instructions, what happens after you die? Exactly.

And God DID indeed require to Israelites to tithe in the Old Testament:

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed
thee? In tithes and offerings.
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole
nation." - Malachi 3: 8-9.

God Himself said he was being ROBBED because they weren't giving Him His "tithes and offerings."

When God the Almighty is obviously upset because He feels you have robbed Him, does he really need to include the "burn in hell" disclaimer for disobedience? Please...


As far as the New Testament goes, I see nothing where people are required to give 'tithes and offerings' to the church under threat of 'burning in hell,' but we will indeed, when we stand before God, have to account for what we did with our money. All of it.

If you sat in the pews of a church for years, but did not help to support them financially other than to give a few buck during a specific drive or when a specific charity is mentioned, I think God is going to have a problem with that.

Will you be able to say, "But Lord I give large amounts to other charities that helped feed the poor and spread your word?" I would assume so.

But it doesn't seem right that you would go to a church that gives you an outlet for worship, instruction on how to follow God, and help develop your relationship with Christ.
If enough people like you do that, then that church is hindered in it's ability to help those God directed them to assist.
That then, I believe, would be on your head.


But that's just me, pointing and laughing at the guy hollering from the choir loft....

 

[marksman]

One thing that is very heavy on my heart right now is that we need to be seeking God on how we can promote unity in the Body of Christ. It's possible for the Body to love each other and be in unity, even though we have theological differences. That's the desire of my heart.

This is unlikely to happen whilst the emphasis is on correct doctrine as in "what I believe" and whilst man is building little kingdoms for himself.

Until we start building the Kingdom of God which means no denominations, unity is a pipe dream.

If you sat in the pews of a church for years, but did not help to support them financially other than to give a few buck during a specific drive or when a specific charity is mentioned, I think God is going to have a problem with that.

Why would God have a problem with that?

In the NT church they gave to people, not an organisation or religious venues. Mind you that was not difficult as they didn't have "sanctuaries" in those days not did they pay people to be good, if you get my drift.

Anyone who gives to a brother or family in need whatever the country is doing the will of God.

Those who give to finance a building or a person who is paid to be a Christian is not doing the will of God.

 

[jiggyfly]

I trust God. But people aren't God; they're not perfect, including myself. We need guidelines. If we didn't need any guidelines and everything was just following the leading of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn't need the Bible. Why do you have such a problem with having a 10% guideline and being open to giving more if the Spirit leads? In my experience, most people who don't believe in tithing, and they believe only in giving according to how they're led usually don't give nearly as much as people who believe in tithing, and give it out of a cheerful and grateful heart.

How do you know how much those people were/are giving?

 

[forrestcupp]

This is unlikely to happen whilst the emphasis is on correct doctrine as in "what I believe" and whilst man is building little kingdoms for himself.

Until we start building the Kingdom of God which means no denominations, unity is a pipe dream.

I totally agree with that. We need to get past our theological differences and love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. I can disagree with some of your peripheral beliefs and still love you. What matters are that our core beliefs are the same. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one can come to the Father but by Him. He died on the cross as propitiation for our sins, and was raised from the dead, and now is at the right hand of the Father. I'm a brother of anyone who receives the salvation experience through Christ, even if they have some differences in beliefs. Unity probably is a pipe dream, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do our part to promote it.

Why would God have a problem with that?

In the NT church they gave to people, not an organisation or religious venues. Mind you that was not difficult as they didn't have "sanctuaries" in those days not did they pay people to be good, if you get my drift.

Anyone who gives to a brother or family in need whatever the country is doing the will of God.

Those who give to finance a building or a person who is paid to be a Christian is not doing the will of God.

The NT church lived during a long time period. If you're talking about the very beginning of the Church in the beginning of Acts, it's true that it was rather unorganized. But it didn't take them long to learn from their experiences, and even by Acts 6, they were starting to appoint deacons. Granted, the deacons of the Bible looked much differently than they do now. But by the end of the new testament, there was much more structure than there was in the very beginning when it was brand new.

Even in the beginning, though, they weren't just giving money to whatever people they felt like giving to. They sold their properties and laid the money at the feet of the Apostles, who then distributed so that the needy had their needs met. After the deacons were appointed, it was the job of the apostles to seek the Lord and study the Word. Paul talked about how the other apostles were paid. Paul also talked about how a workman is worthy of his wages. When the Church started to become more widespread and mature, it became the apostle's job to build foundations of local churches, and appoint elders, bishops, or overseers to take care of their local churches. At that time, they took on the apostle's earlier duties in a more localized way.

It's also not true that Paul never accepted compensation for his ministry. He worked a job and didn't take money from churches who didn't have a giving heart, because he knew that their salvation was important, and he didn't want that to be a stumbling block. But there were other churches, like the one at Philipi, that had giving hearts. They appreciated the investment Paul was making into their lives, and they wanted to bless him. When churches sent aid to Paul to help take care of him, he didn't refuse it. He let them know how much he appreciated it.

How do you know how much those people were/are giving?

Read my posts after the one you quoted. I discussed that in great detail.

 

[Axehead]

http://churchdirectmail.comThe Nicolaitan spirit took over the church just a few hundred years after her birth and the true Church went "underground". Vestiges of this spirit were evident even before the 1st century concluded. Jesus talked about the Nicolaitans (which He said He hated - twice). Paul said that after his departing (in the book of Acts) that wolves would come in NOT SPARING THE FLOCK OF GOD. That was prophetic and it has continued to this day. Clergy began to rule and they instituted their "laws" of giving because they decided they needed regular income since they were not going to work at a regular job as a regular brother would. They also instituted other "laws", rules, regulations and "guidelines".

The reason that today's Clergy know how much one gives is because in many churches you are handed 52 envelopes with a number on them. This number represents you in their computer system. You just put your cash or check in this envelope and drop it in the collection plate. Your envelope is received, number looked up in their database and your amount is credited to you in their computer system. Monday morning, the Pastor has a report of the tithes and offerings received during the weekend on his desk and most people think it is just a total amount, but remember that envelope you used....well, he gets a detailed report of how much everyone gave.

Does this sound anything like Scripture? Book of Acts? Paul, Peter, early Apostles, Pastors?

Luke 22
24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

So, Jesus said this, but man has elevated themselves anyway in the form of Clergy.

Today, as through the centuries, there is a mixture of Believers and Unbelievers in the religious system and ignorance concerning what is Biblical and what is not is rampant. And this ignorance is what causes well meaning, good hearted people to be taken advantage of by religious leaders every weekend and all days in between. Many of these religious leaders have their 101 canned Tithe and Giving messages ready to preach (and when the tithes and offerings drop, you will hear one of these messages).

Many are taken advantage of by religious leaders. And just like the world "operating on money" as Foresttcup said, so do much of the visible churches. The Religious System definitely operates on Mammon. They are constantly COUNTING the NICKELS, NOSES and NUMBERS as if the increase of these are indications of God's blessings upon them and indications of true spiritual growth. The "Tithe" is the fuel for the religious engine because no one would dare live by faith today and take Jesus words in Luke 22, seriously. They are led by carnal thinking and logic. They think that in order to do the Lord's work, they cannot possibly meet in homes or have a regular job and that they need a central building and salary and paid staff in order to serve the needs of the Flock. And once the Flock of Christ are sold on the fact that they need all of this, then the rest is easy. A budget and fixed income will be necessary because after all you can't live by faith when you have monthly bills to pay (or so they say). Many brothers and sisters live by faith everyday, working a real job and not knowing what tomorrow will bring. But the religious system will not have any of that! They need guaranteed income and thus the teaching of the religious tax (tithe) is propagated every Sunday.

This is the thinking that pervades the religious system not to mention that there is no unity amongst them at all. The Churches across the street from each other and down the block from each other are in constant competition for Nickels, Noses and Numbers. Take a look at your Saturday paper and turn to the religious section and read their advertising and you will see a competitive spirit. The Religious System is always concerned about how to be "relevant" to the current society as if that was their calling. Relevance? Man is a sinner and lost. What is more relevant that a Savior?


People are becoming more and more disenchanted with organized religion.” The House Church movement has been growing through the decades to the point where you can now find directories of House Churches on the Internet (in all 50 states). People are looking for simplicity and honesty. They are tired of being an impersonal cog in the religious system. In short, they are tired of being one of those NUMBERS, whose only value to others are their NICKELS. Mounds of research confirms what many have felt for a long time. That the spiritual still believe in God, (though not necessarily the religious). Though many have given up on Church, as in Organized Religion, they have not given up on Christ. It is just that their eyes have been opened and they hear the Lord calling them out of the Religious System. Organized religion, has provided plenty of reasons why people would consider never coming back. The impact is much larger than people realize and also covered up, for good reason.

Churches today are no longer just competing with each other on Sunday mornings. They also compete with coffee shops and sports, the Sunday paper and brunch. Worship is one of a vast array of options, including political news shows, Facebook, sleeping late, and yard work. Churches have a program for everything even substitutes for Trick or Treat. How about Trunk or Treat?

I find it abominable to read the Saturday religious section and see churches saying things like "Come worship with us, we have the most anointed worship team in the city".

Theological Reflection on Church Newspaper Ads

There is much to do to keep the Religious System well oiled and running, efficiently. It will keep all of you running on their "treadmill" of works and service to keep the programs running smoothly.
Since we "need some guidelines" in our Christian walk, here are some for building your church.
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The Religious System (spirit) has existed ever since Cain decided to come to God on his own terms and not on God's terms and it will continue to exist. Jesus doesn't say tear it down, He says, "Come out of her my people".

Axehead

 

[forrestcupp]

Wow. Axehead, you've had some bad experiences with churches, and I'm sorry you've had to go through that. I've never been a part of any church that resembles what you are describing, and I never would be. Not every church out there is money hungry and constantly thinking about the coin. There actually are churches whose first love is Christ, and their primary concern is touching people's lives for the Kingdom of God. It's the churches that you are describing that give us all a bad name.

Unfortunately, even the churches with good motives have to pay bills. Thankfully, there are a lot of good hearted people who see the fruits of what these godly churches are doing, and they support those works from a giving heart.

 

[mjrhealth]

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
1Ch 21:3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

1Ch 21:6 But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.
1Ch 21:7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.

It is God that gives the increase but churches still number the peoples if it was they that do.

PS. There is no such thing as a Godly church. you may see it that way, but I can guarantee God sees what is going on in them all and would disagree with you.

Rom_1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

When you give to those in need. than you have done as God expects, do we get any credit for it, No!, because it is expected of us and doesnt earn us browny points with God.

In all His Love

 

[forrestcupp]

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people who think that all churches are evil. I'm done now.

 

[Axehead]

There are certainly 10's of thousands that have and are having bad experiences, but, I don't recall saying that I have had many bad experiences. On the contrary, I have had many good experiences. I know many fellowships (non 501-c3) where the elders live by faith and never talk about money and don't expect people to pay them a salary, medical benefits, life insurance and retirement. And yet, everyone's needs are met and their good works are not trumpeted. And the people are not used to looking to one man to satisfy all their needs. The Church members minister Christ to each other and thus grow up into mature, functioning Believers, being weaned from the milk. A healthy congregation of Believers is one where all are looking to Christ and able to minister Christ to each other. They are all on the same level and call each other brothers and sisters. No special titles are needed or even wanted. Remember, Luke 22?

On the other hand, I am not naive about the religious system and the heart of man.

The Lord told us a long time ago what a carnal man would do to His sheep if the sheep insisted on having a man over them and that man not being Jesus Christ.

1Sam_8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1Sam_8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

Yes, how will this "King" rule over his subjects? You will see the modern day (carnal) tithe prophesied in the following scriptures.

1Sam_8:11-19 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. (He will put a ministry staff in place). And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants (his family and friends). And he will take the tenth of your seed, (tithe) and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants (pay his staff a salary from you tithe and offerings). And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work (and call it "the ministry of the Lord"). He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; (And if you don't like him and your congregation is able, you will fire him and get another "king" to reign over you. Any wonder that there are more than 15,000+ church splits a year in carnal, American Christendom?)

And all of this is done in the name of God, today. Putting the Lord's name on something does not make it holy and right. Many are fooling the sheep, but the Lord is never fooled. And one day they will appear before Him and begin bragging about all the great things that they did. Imagine, standing in front of Jesus Christ and talking about yourself!! Some of these religious leaders are very subtle in their speech while others are obviously not, yet the "sheep" still follow. I don't believe the true sheep will follow man's voice, though.

 

[jiggyfly]

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people who think that all churches are evil. I'm done now.

Don't know about evil but many are definitely misinformed.

 

[Axehead]

Don't know about evil but many are definitely misinformed.

Remember Jiggy, I am talking about the false religious system. Some people cannot tell the difference between the Kingdom of God and the systems of this world.

 

[jiggyfly]

Remember Jiggy, I am talking about the false religious system. Some people cannot tell the difference between the Kingdom of God and the systems of this world.

Very true Axe I agree.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people who think that all churches are evil. I'm done now.

One does not argue over the truth one argues over lies, teh truth is. And no not all churches are evil, and yet none of them are any good, why because you look at it with your eyes, listen with your ears but yet dont see or hear.

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

In All His Love

 

[marksman]

When churches sent aid to Paul to help take care of him, he didn't refuse it. He let them know how much he appreciated it.

I have only highlighted this last comment forestcupp, but I agree with most of what you say but I draw this distinction.

When I did a two year study of leadership in the New Testament Church (NTC) and read 40 books on the subject, I found out that quite a lot that I had taken for granted was not supported by scripture.

Out of this study, I found that NO ONE was paid a SALARY. The only people that were financially supported were the Apostles whilst they were travelling as they obviously could not work whilst doing this, and Paul supported the others travelling with him by his tent making business when they set up house anywhere. Paul did say that the Apostles had a right to be supported financially, but and I make this quite clear, there were no indications of a weekly salary.

The other people who were financially supported were widows who devoted themselves to prayer, so they were unable to earn an income.

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE was brought in from another church, given the title pastor and paid to run it. The leadership was very obviously in the hands of a plurality of Elders, chosen from within the congregation and who were not paid a salary.

Some of these concepts are hard for us to understand because we have built the church on secular corporate ideals so we cannot comprehend that the church could work like it did in the New Testament.

The fact that no one was paid a salary was confirmed by Constantine, who when he legalised Christianity as the state religion and introduced the ideas of secular Roman government into it by appointing priests, said that they had to be paid a salary.

Now this tells us two things. Why did he have to appoint priests if the church already had them, and second, why did he say they had to be paid if they were already paid?

For me, whatever happened after the original church period found in the New Testament, it is subservient to what the scriptures says and teaches. As most churches ignore this in respect of church government, we have yet to find out if it is a better system than the churches current secular ideals.

I just happen to believe if we dismantle man's effort at church government and put in place what we read of in scripture, we will change the world.....just as they did then.