Pentecostalism History tidbits

[marksman]

Having tried on more than one occasion to discredit the experiences and beliefs of other believers who have first-hand knowledge of the supernatural, and insist that he is right and everyone else is wrong, I am surprised that Dave, after so many tries to put us all right, has failed miserably to get any traction for his beliefs but still insists we are all wrong and he is the only one that is right.

This last couple of years I have been studying the situation in the Middle East and have read books written by ex Muslims who have said that they and thousands of other Muslims are coming to Christ because of the supernatural. They have been told about the Messiah Jesus and they have said they wanted to know more about this man.

As a result, he has appeared to them supernaturally or in their dreams, telling them that he is the Messiah. Because of this they have left Islam and embraced Christianity which often means death because in most Muslim countries leaving Islam is not allowed.

Yet, according to Dave, things of this nature do not happen because the supernatural ceased when the Apostles ceased.

In another thread, I asked him 20 or 30 times for evidence for this but he could not give me one. All he offered was red herrings to avoid the question.

So, if you want to prove that the supernatural does not exist, you will have a harder job than those who can prove that the supernatural does exist.

 

[Dave L]

I thought the subject was pentecostal titbits?

A big tidbit if you read the article before commenting.

 

[Dave L]

We must be patient with Dave because he labors under a heavy weight of conviction to seek the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Soon he will be slain in the Spirit and babbing gibberish until his DEAU-U-UD spirituality is brought to life!

Dave L: [Parham] "Sexual misconduct?"

We should rip the Psalms of David out of our Old Testament because David was a murderer and an adulterer!

Dave L: "Parham, Charles F. (1873–1929). The founder of American *Pentecostalism, Parham began ministry with the Methodist Episcopal Church and soon embraced holiness doctrine and became a revivalist. Parham founded the Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas, where on January 1, 1901, his student Agnes Ozman both spoke in tongues and affirmed that that gift was the key indicator of baptism in the Holy Spirit. In 1905 Parham moved his school to Houston, Texas, from where Pentecostalism spread to Los Angeles in the preaching of William J. *Seymour, leader of the highly influential *Azusa Street revival. Parham’s influence ebbed following charges of sexual misconduct and his vocal advocacy of “British Israelism.“
Feldmeth, N. P. (2008). In Pocket Dictionary of Church History: Over 300 Terms Clearly and Concisely Defined (p. 110). Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic."

Dave, if you want posters to take your vile screed seriously, demonstrate at least a token effort to consider the posted competent documentary on the Azusa Street Revival. There you will learn, for example, facts like these 6:
(1) The Martin Luther of the modern Pentecostal movement is William Symour, not Charles Parham.
(2) When Seymour took classes at Parham's Bible School, racism forced him to sit outside in the hall rather than with the other students. In fact, Seymour was not even allowed to kneel with other students in prayer.
(3) Seymour and his small band of Black prayer warriors spent many hours a day in fasting and prayer for God's guidance in prayer vigils that God used to spark that great revival. He is a great American saint.
(4) The Azusa meetings took up no offering and had no formal structure. When attendees spoke in the flesh, they were gentily rebuked and corrected by Seymour's no-nonsense exercise of the gift of discernment.
(5) Seymour instructed those baptized in the Holy Spirit to go out and witness to the Gospel rather than talk about speaking in tongues.
(6) All true revivals are targets of Satanic counterfeit spirituality. The Azusa Street Revival led to 600 million Pentecostal and Charimsatic converts (one quarter of the world's Christians!). So, though initially localized in LA, it is the most influential mass move of God of all time.
(1)

The famous Azusa Street mission where Pentecostalism was birthed was characterized by the greatest confusion: dancing, jumping, falling, trances, spirit slaying, gibberish “tongues,” jerking, hysteria, strange animal noises, laughter, spiritual muteness. The seekers would be “seized with a strange spell and commence a gibberish of sounds” (Larry Martin, The True Believers, p. 58). Recent Pentecostal Scandals

Where do you find anything even remotely approaching this in scripture?

 

[marksman]

The famous Azusa Street mission where Pentecostalism was birthed was characterized by the greatest confusion: dancing, jumping, falling, trances, spirit slaying, gibberish “tongues,” jerking, hysteria, strange animal noises, laughter, spiritual muteness. The seekers would be “seized with a strange spell and commence a gibberish of sounds” (Larry Martin, The True Believers, p. 58). Recent Pentecostal Scandals

Where do you find anything even remotely approaching this in scripture?

David danced before the Lord.

 

[Dave L]

David danced before the Lord.

But he was nothing like what you see today.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Parham, Charles F. (1873–1929). The founder of American *Pentecostalism, Parham began ministry with the Methodist Episcopal Church and soon embraced holiness doctrine and became a revivalist. Parham founded the Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas, where on January 1, 1901, his student Agnes Ozman both spoke in tongues and affirmed that that gift was the key indicator of baptism in the Holy Spirit. In 1905 Parham moved his school to Houston, Texas, from where Pentecostalism spread to Los Angeles in the preaching of William J. *Seymour, leader of the highly influential *Azusa Street revival. Parham’s influence ebbed following charges of sexual misconduct and his vocal advocacy of “British Israelism.“

Feldmeth, N. P. (2008). In Pocket Dictionary of Church History: Over 300 Terms Clearly and Concisely Defined (p. 110). Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic.

Leave it to Dave to pull up some scandal of sexual misconduct that proved to be false and the charges were dropped. He was framed by Wilbur Voliva. Parham had previously stopped preaching at Voliva's Zion City church in order to set up his Apostolic Faith Movement.

This is exactly why God hates scoffers and those drilling holes trying to find dirt.

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful

cc: @"ByGrace"

 

[marksman]

But he was nothing like what you see today.

How do you know? have you seen David dance?

 

[marksman]

Leave it to Dave to pull up some scandal of sexual misconduct that proved to be false and the charges were dropped. He was framed by Wilbur Voliva. Parham had previously stopped preaching at Voliva's Zion City church in order to set up his Apostolic Faith Movement.

This is exactly why God hates scoffers and those drilling holes trying to find dirt.

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful

cc: @"ByGrace"

Thank you for setting out the truth for us.

 

[Dave L]

How do you know? have you seen David dance?

I've studied Pentecostal history. And seen more than enough twitching, foaming at the mouth with eyes rolled back in the head while babbling nonsense and preaching fanaticism to know better. David hasn't any similarities.

 

[Ezra]

this reminds me of the woman with the alabaster box of ointment in the book of mark.. she broke it open poured it out over his head. symbolic of preparing his body for after death .there was those who said in there self righteous/ pious tone .this was very expensive and could have been sold. to help the poor.. JESUS REPLIED LET HER ALONE SHE HAS DONE WHAT SHE COULD....... PARTS OF PENTECOSTALISM i dont agree with but i am not going to try to tear it down. God called us to be wise master builders not demolition workers in tearing down brothers and sisters who believe.different than us.. so i ask WHAT ARE WE DOING . the woman did all that she could her act of worship

 

[marksman]

I've studied Pentecostal history. And seen more than enough twitching, foaming at the mouth with eyes rolled back in the head while babbling nonsense and preaching fanaticism to know better. David hasn't any similarities.

How do you know? have you seen David dance? Try answering the question.

 

[Dave L]

How do you know? have you seen David dance? Try answering the question.

Did David's eyes roll back in his head while he rolled on the floor foaming at the mouth twitching? Or go home and pour gas on himself and light a match? You don't find this in real churches.

 

[marksman]

Did David's eyes roll back in his head while he rolled on the floor foaming at the mouth twitching? Or go home and pour gas on himself and light a match? You don't find this in real churches.

The fact that you cannot or refuse to answer the question suggests to me you are up the creek without a paddle, happy to fill the atmosphere with mumbo jumbo. You must be talking in tongues.

 

[Dave L]

The fact that you cannot or refuse to answer the question suggests to me you are up the creek without a paddle, happy to fill the atmosphere with mumbo jumbo. You must be talking in tongues.

If scripture cannot reach you, I surely cannot.

 

[marksman]

If scripture cannot reach you, I surely cannot.

another red herring that you seem to specialise in.

By the way, the people that reach me are those that share the truth.

 

[Dave L]

another red herring that you seem to specialise in.

By the way, the people that reach me are those that share the truth.

We have many emotional claims but no scripture supporting your views.

 

[Dave L]

The fact that you cannot or refuse to answer the question suggests to me you are up the creek without a paddle, happy to fill the atmosphere with mumbo jumbo. You must be talking in tongues.

Put up some scripture so I can answer with scripture.

 

[Helen]

Leave it to Dave to pull up some scandal of sexual misconduct that proved to be false and the charges were dropped. He was framed by Wilbur Voliva. Parham had previously stopped preaching at Voliva's Zion City church in order to set up his Apostolic Faith Movement.

This is exactly why God hates scoffers and those drilling holes trying to find dirt.

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful

Thank you...excellent post and good to hear balance.

 

[rockytopva]

My testimony.... I was born on a military base to a

1. Dad - Who studied to be a priest in Catholic seminary
2. Mom - Brought up Pentecostal Holiness and on a farm

We moved up in central Michigan when I was in grade school where I got a paper route and a motorcycle. The school of the time was very wild. You could hear the 70’s rock and roll all the time with young people out in the fields smoking dope. One day while on a route a church bus stops and the driver yells out the door that I needed to be in church.The next thing I know the whole family is attending the local baptist church. The whole youth group would go to church and also party it up with the others of the day. I ended up growing my hair long and falling in with the times.

Regarding the Baptist church they had me believing that speaking of tongues was of the devil and I believed them. The problem was that church was cold as an ice box. In February I used to look out into the ice cold Michigan tundra, with the wind blowing solid white over the road, and a temperature much below zero and wonder what was colder, the tundra I was looking out on, or the church I was in.

When I was seventeen I moved in with my grandmother and attended a party with the young people. I had thought I had snuck in the house good enough, but just as I had got in bed my grandmothers light turned on. There at the doorway my grandmother stood with tears running down her cheeks soaking into her nightgown, making for, I do know, the most pitiful sight (and most powerful sermon) I have ever seen. I told her I would not do that again and kept my word.

So I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness people. I would work the restaurant in the mornings, the hayfields in the afternoon and go to the revivals at night. We had a wonderful youth group and would go to the many functions. I came into a Pentecostal Holiness Church that was in revival. The old guys would sit back in the pew and weep while the people before them were being laid out in the Spirit. If they looked back and catch the amazed look in my eye they would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" As they pointed to the souls blessed around the altar. After being in such an environment for months one evening while laying on my bed reading Nikki Cruises "Run Baby Run" I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me for the first time to put the book down. When I did he says again, "Where is all that stress, tension, bad feelings, and the like?" In which examining my soul there was nothing there but pure beauty, and in the words of George Clark Rankin,

"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

The first congregation to carry the name Pentecostal Holiness Church was formed in Goldsboro, North Carolina in 1898. This church was founded as a result of the evangelistic ministry of Abner Blackmon Crumpler, a Methodist evangelist.

What I ran into I can only describe as a light and an energy that delighted my soul, and consider myself a lifelong Pentecostal Holiness. The old WWII generation would normally have small farms, work local jobs, and it was church at night. The people would work hard Mo-Fr, town on Saturday, and church on Sunday. There were blue laws that kept the places of businesses closed on Sunday, making for I can only describe as an area of Wesleyan culture.

Regarding Speaking in Tongues it is not scriptural that this was done away with...

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16:17-18

If these events no longer occur it is more due to our carnality than any other reason. I prefer to press people on in the events I just described, however it is not conditional to salvation. The old Pentecostal Holiness church I just eluded to would wait for an interpretation if a message in tongues was given. And they would sit you down if you were out of order.

We had a oneness Pentecostal push in these parts a couple of decades ago. These people would not let anyone claim salvation unless they spoke in tongues. I had a guy I worked with who was in this and his personality actually warmed up after he fell out of the movement. Oneness Pentecostal... I think of it as "Yankee Pentecostalism" as there is very little of the warmth, care, compassion, character, charity, and joy that I was accustomed to in the Wesleyan way of getting things.

 

[Dave L]

My testimony.... I was born on a military base to a

1. Dad - Who studied to be a priest in Catholic seminary
2. Mom - Brought up Pentecostal Holiness and on a farm

We moved up in central Michigan when I was in grade school where I got a paper route and a motorcycle. The school of the time was very wild. You could hear the 70’s rock and roll all the time with young people out in the fields smoking dope. One day while on a route a church bus stops and the driver yells out the door that I needed to be in church.The next thing I know the whole family is attending the local baptist church. The whole youth group would go to church and also party it up with the others of the day. I ended up growing my hair long and falling in with the times.

Regarding the Baptist church they had me believing that speaking of tongues was of the devil and I believed them. The problem was that church was cold as an ice box. In February I used to look out into the ice cold Michigan tundra, with the wind blowing solid white over the road, and a temperature much below zero and wonder what was colder, the tundra I was looking out on, or the church I was in.

When I was seventeen I moved in with my grandmother and attended a party with the young people. I had thought I had snuck in the house good enough, but just as I had got in bed my grandmothers light turned on. There at the doorway my grandmother stood with tears running down her cheeks soaking into her nightgown, making for, I do know, the most pitiful sight (and most powerful sermon) I have ever seen. I told her I would not do that again and kept my word.

So I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness people. I would work the restaurant in the mornings, the hayfields in the afternoon and go to the revivals at night. We had a wonderful youth group and would go to the many functions. I came into a Pentecostal Holiness Church that was in revival. The old guys would sit back in the pew and weep while the people before them were being laid out in the Spirit. If they looked back and catch the amazed look in my eye they would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" As they pointed to the souls blessed around the altar. After being in such an environment for months one evening while laying on my bed reading Nikki Cruises "Run Baby Run" I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me for the first time to put the book down. When I did he says again, "Where is all that stress, tension, bad feelings, and the like?" In which examining my soul there was nothing there but pure beauty, and in the words of George Clark Rankin,

"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

The first congregation to carry the name Pentecostal Holiness Church was formed in Goldsboro, North Carolina in 1898. This church was founded as a result of the evangelistic ministry of Abner Blackmon Crumpler, a Methodist evangelist.

What I ran into I can only describe as a light and an energy that delighted my soul, and consider myself a lifelong Pentecostal Holiness. The old WWII generation would normally have small farms, work local jobs, and it was church at night. The people would work hard Mo-Fr, town on Saturday, and church on Sunday. There were blue laws that kept the places of businesses closed on Sunday, making for I can only describe as an area of Wesleyan culture.

Regarding Speaking in Tongues it is not scriptural that this was done away with...

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16:17-18

If these events no longer occur it is more due to our carnality than any other reason. I prefer to press people on in the events I just described, however it is not conditional to salvation. The old Pentecostal Holiness church I just eluded to would wait for an interpretation if a message in tongues was given. And they would sit you down if you were out of order.

We had a oneness Pentecostal push in these parts a couple of decades ago. These people would not let anyone claim salvation unless they spoke in tongues. I had a guy I worked with who was in this and his personality actually warmed up after he fell out of the movement. Oneness Pentecostal... I think of it as "Yankee Pentecostalism" as there is very little of the warmth, care, compassion, character, charity, and joy that I was accustomed to in the Wesleyan way of getting things.

But tongues today are fraudulent. Scripture proves so many times over if you would like to debate the issue.