Perpetual virginity of Mary mother of God!
- Thread starter theefaith
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
**ahem**
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife
(Matthew 1:24)
(Matthew 1:24)
why is it so important to you that Mary be in perpetual sin against her husband?
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer;
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
Behold!! An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
(Matthew 2:13)
(Matthew 2:13)
they lived together in a home in Egypt. nisuin.
unless you call her living in sin with a man who is not her husband?
culturally a virgin lives in her father's house and a married woman, with her husband ((previously established, Matthew 1:24))
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
(Matthew 2:23)
(Matthew 2:23)
they lived together in a home in Nazareth. nisuin.
unless you call her living in sin with a man who is not her husband?
culturally a virgin lives in her father's house and a married woman, with her husband ((previously established, Matthew 1:24))
I've already answered that in post #63. But here it is again:
Regarding the "until "clause.
1. It actually supports my claim that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity. In ancient Judaism a couple would consummate the marriage on their wedding night (nisuin). It was the climax of the wedding celebration taking place in the "bridal chamber" (see MT 25:1-13). So Matthew is making the point that they did not consummate the marriage. This supports the idea that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity.
2. Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities. (note my emboldening)
Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death? NO
“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84? NO
Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO
but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO
For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO
Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO
We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO
except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come. (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO
To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO
keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife
(Matthew 1:24)
(Matthew 1:24)
why is it so important to you that Mary be in perpetual sin against her husband?
do your traditions prohibit you from worshipping a married woman?
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer;
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
From that silly comment you obviously don't understand the meaning of "first born" in Judaism.
Let me educate you.
For Jews it meant the child that opened the womb (Ex. 13:2; Num. 3:12). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the "first-born" son that was to be sanctified (Ex. 34:20). Did this mean the parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the "first-born"? Hardly. The first male child of a marriage was termed the "first-born" even if he turned out to be the only child of the marriage.
Moreover to be the ‘first-born’ was a very important title in that culture, since among other things, it implied the person would receive two thirds of the inheritance. It does not refer only to the fact of being the first one to be born, since the older son, even if the only one would be called ‘first-born’.
Heb 1:6 is a reference to God sending his first-born Son into the world. Who would be others sent by God with the same dignity as Jesus?
‘First-born’ refers to a privilege, without having to have had other sons or children. If the ‘first-born’ were at the same time the ‘only-born’, the first title would count for more.
An important argument from a theological perspective is that always, when a birth is announced by an angel of a son, it is a matter of an only son.
- Isaac (Gen 18:10)
- Samson (Judges 13:4)
- John the Baptist (Lk 1:13)
Mary was not in perpetual sin against her husband.
Mary made a vow of perpetual virginity and Joseph accepted and respected that.
do you understand the difference between "first" and "only" ?
we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father
(John 1:14)
(John 1:14)
imagine that said 'first'
what kind of heresy would you have inserted?
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
This is what I was taught in the RCC, but since I left the RCC I have learned otherwise theefaith, what would be the purpose of Mary remaining celibate after giving birth to Christ?
such pure baloney certainly makes me consider vegetarianism.
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife
(Matthew 1:24)
(Matthew 1:24)
she is Joseph's wife. scripture is not uncertain about this.
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer;
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
'come together again' -- scripture is not uncertain about this.
you have a choice to make, Mssr. Mung
your godddess-worship or the truth.
I'm not disputing they were husband and wife.
What is you problem?
Added. I think you will find the answer to this in post #32
why is it so important to you that Mary live in perpetual sin, defrauding her husband all the days of her earthly life?
you hate Joseph or something?
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer;
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(1 Corinthians 7:5)
- Status
Similar threads
