Perseverance : of the Saints

[CadyandZoe]

thank you

I disagree, I see the parable of explaining 4 different responses to the gospel of Christ. The seed is the gospel. where it is planted is how people react..

Who cultivated the soil?

I think we all want this

Thus the apostles give us the markers to identify.

 

[amigo de christo]

The "P" in the acronym TULIP has been morphed into "Preservation" for awhile now. Doesn't "Perseverance" sound like works for salvation? Maybe that is why it was changed?

All i truly know is this cocerning tulip and calvin . let no man , woman or child heed his two lips cause those lips
have flapped major damage unto the peoples .
Okay , we may all return to the thread again . Oh wait , since we on the subject of two lips
FOLKS better watch out for two lips cause most men are now letting flow through them lips deadly and dangerous doctrines
of men which under guise its love is gonna rip the life out of any and all who heed them lips . BIBLE TIME is about all i can say .

 

[amigo de christo]

Who cultivated the soil?

Thus the apostles give us the markers to identify.

Well if its the RCC and scores of others cultivating the soil , THEN BEWARE . Cause many now claim to hold the keys
and yet not only have they not entered in themselves , BUT I GOT BAD NEWS , those who sit under them Cannot enter
in through them . Guess i got two words for everyone today . BIBLE TIME . and let us not look back either .

 

[amigo de christo]

Who cultivated the soil?

Thus the apostles give us the markers to identify.

The doctrine of the apostels , I KNOW WERE OF CHRIST , can indeed be found in their letters . The markers
to identify the false from the true , error from truth , OH ITS IN THEM PAGES .
Far too many who have for days , weeks, months , years , to decades , to centuries and then some , HAVE LONG
desired the very thing JESUS TOLD US to beware of ..................THE PRE EMIENCE .
Beware those who .....................................
And yet not only do they do this , they desire titles like MOST , MOST before the very things we were not to have even called one another .
A HINT MOST HOLY FATHER , MOST HOLY REVERAND . and yet STILL people sit under them men . NOT THIS LAMB
i am gonna expose that WHORE and her daughters . IF folks dont like it , WELL THEN UNIFY TOGETHER as ONE
under the false love and convince folks to get rid of me . BUT i aint gonna cease from warning against wolves in wool
who do the harlots work . You all may return to the thread at hand . This lamb wont compromise
and i wont sit at NO table of unity with NO HARLOT , no wolves in wool . We have us a serious decision to make .
cause the all inclusive false satanic lovey do itself cannot survive on the path its on , LEST IT Comes full force
against the voices of those who oppose it . NOR can the TRUE CHURCH survive if it dont decide
to keep the biblical pattern and stop UNIFYING with WHORES and HARLOTS . I already made my choice .
ITS the unifiers with THE HARLOT i shall not keep any company with . Rather , no matter the cost
and out of great love for the people , SHALL continue to warn . Get busy doing what must be done .
I shall do the same . But watching folks drown in destruction has been very depressing for me to watch .
Very sad indeed .

 

[David H.]

Should your Op not be called preservation of the saints (we are preserved) not perseverance of the saints (we must persevere?)

The "P" in the acronym TULIP has been morphed into "Preservation" for awhile now. Doesn't "Perseverance" sound like works for salvation? Maybe that is why it was changed?

Preservation is for the faithful, perseverance is for the saints..... The problem is the protestant revolution fails to make the distinction between the faithful and the saints and it will forever be in confusion and schism and disarray known as denominationalism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Preservation is for the faithful, perseverance is for the saints..... The problem is the protestant revolution fails to make the distinction between the faithful and the saints and it will forever be in confusion and schism and disarray known as denominationalism.

there is basically only three gospel

1. Faith plus works
2. Easy believism or licentiousness
3. Grace through faith apart from works.

Take every denomination there is, and they all fit under one of these three gospels..

 

[CadyandZoe]

Preservation is for the faithful, perseverance is for the saints..... The problem is the protestant revolution fails to make the distinction between the faithful and the saints and it will forever be in confusion and schism and disarray known as denominationalism.

There is no distinction between "faithful" and "saints". The English word "sanctification" is based on the Latin "sanctus" and it roughly means "the state of having been sanctified or the state of having been made holy." The English term "saint" or "saints" also comes from "sanctus" and means "holy one" or "holy ones."

All of those in Christ are "holy ones", having been "sanctified" by the Spirit of God. And because they are "sanctifed" they remain faithful in the Lord.

God, not the Pope, decides whom to make holy.

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 2:10-12
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for this reason He is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying,

“I will proclaim Your name to My brothers,
In the midst of the assembly I will sing Your praise.”

 

[David H.]

Take every denomination there is, and they all fit under one of these three gospels..

Just about every protestant church believes in and affirms the third of your choices as true and sound doctrine, yet there is so much division between them.... IMO that is because they are reading scripture wrong, and not rightly dividing those teaching directed at saints from those directed toward the faithful. Read the Above response from @CadyandZoe to see how ingrained this doctrine is and how it denies the very existence of the high calling of God in Christ which the saints persevere to.

Take for example election, that is applies to the high call of God in Christ, and the saints, But salvation is to whomsoever will... the faithful.... This simple distinction would cast aside one of the biggest protestant divides there is. But it is so indoctrinated in both sides that every believer is a saint that they can't even see this, and call ech other heretics for believing one or the other side of this debate.

I also will say prophecy, particularly revelation makes a whole lot more sense when you see this distinction.
God Bless.

sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,

Sanctified in Christ=the faithful, Saints by calling= saints.... election and calling are for the saints.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 1:1)
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:7)

TRY This, step outside the boundaries of your indoctrination, and read the book of Ephesians with this distinction in mind... it will make a lot more sense and open up a whole wonderful understanding of what Paul wrote there knowing he was soon to be making that saintly sacrifice. No other book mentions saints more than the book of Ephesians.

God Bless

 

[CadyandZoe]

TRY This, step outside the boundaries of your indoctrination ...

I can tell you are a Catholic apologist and need for "saint" to mean something that the Bible doesn't teach. I get that. But you are projecting when you say that I am indoctrinated.

This kind of language reveals that you haven't done the research yourself and have a weak understanding of the subject.

 

[David H.]

I can tell you are a Catholic apologist and need for "saint" to mean something that the Bible doesn't teach. I get that. But you are projecting when you say that I am indoctrinated.

This kind of language reveals that you haven't done the research yourself and have a weak understanding of the subject.

This assessment is 100% inaccurate of me.... I Have never stepped foot inside a Catholic church, I Have debated and exposed many Catholic apologists in my day.... I am not "projecting" I am encouraging you to study scriptures with the desire for the truth.... in fact that is where these conclusions come from, years of study of the Word of God and a desire to understand the Truth of Scripture... For the record I was born into the Lutheran church and raised and consider myself a Baptist to this day... in other words I believe that baptism comes after salvation, and not infant baptism. I encourage you to think outside the box of protestant doctrine and this offends you.... Why?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I encourage you to think outside the box of protestant doctrine and this offends you.... Why?

Just like the calvin/arminian, when you use words like this, (only a catholic would use these words by the way) you prety much shut down all conversation. Because from experience. We understand you will not hear a word we say, you have already judged us..

 

[CadyandZoe]

This assessment is 100% inaccurate of me.... I Have never stepped foot inside a Catholic church, I Have debated and exposed many Catholic apologists in my day.... I am not "projecting" I am encouraging you to study scriptures with the desire for the truth.... in fact that is where these conclusions come from, years of study of the Word of God and a desire to understand the Truth of Scripture... For the record I was born into the Lutheran church and raised and consider myself a Baptist to this day... in other words I believe that baptism comes after salvation, and not infant baptism. I encourage you to think outside the box of protestant doctrine and this offends you.... Why?

I would like to retract my initial assessment of you. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you are a Catholic apologist. However, your language comes across as arrogant to me, suggesting that you are an apologist of some sort and that your opinions are based on an agenda rather than a thorough examination of the scriptures. People who try to confuse us with irrelevant information often tout their "years of study". I believe that you overestimate your abilities, but one thing is clear: using self-serving language can damage your credibility and trustworthiness.

It isn't a matter of thinking outside the box. With regard to Biblical truth, the only factor that counts is whether or not my mind has collapsed around what the Bible intends to say. My "box", if you will, is the Biblical worldview and based on a few verses that speak to the topic at hand, I gave you good reasons why I reject the distinction you proposed.

I can give more but in the light of the attitude you expressed, I fear we will never find common ground.

 

[David H.]

Just like the calvin/arminian, when you use words like this, (only a catholic would use these words by the way) you prety much shut down all conversation. Because from experience. We understand you will not hear a word we say, you have already judged us..

Just tryin to have the conversation.... it is you who are shutting it down. I think my point is valid, and I am not thinking outside the box of scripture, but rather a man made doctrine routed in Luther and Calvin that says all believers are saints... find the verse that states this. In fact the opposite is true, the saints and the faithful are addressed as two distinct groups in scripture. It is presumptuous to assume that all believers are saints, not to mention arrogant, considering a saint is chosen by divine Lot (2 Peter 1:1).... I do not even assume that I am one but consider myself among the faithful.

I would like to retract my initial assessment of you. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you are a Catholic apologist. However, your language comes across as arrogant to me, suggesting that you are an apologist of some sort and that your opinions are based on an agenda rather than a thorough examination of the scriptures. People who try to confuse us with irrelevant information often tout their "years of study". I believe that you overestimate your abilities, but one thing is clear: using self-serving language can damage your credibility and trustworthiness.

It isn't a matter of thinking outside the box. With regard to Biblical truth, the only factor that counts is whether or not my mind has collapsed around what the Bible intends to say. My "box", if you will, is the Biblical worldview and based on a few verses that speak to the topic at hand, I gave you good reasons why I reject the distinction you proposed.

I can give more but in the light of the attitude you expressed, I fear we will never find common ground.

This kind of language reveals that you haven't done the research yourself and have a weak understanding of the subject.

People who try to confuse us with irrelevant information often tout their "years of study".

So which is it? I Haven't done the research or I have? in your attempt to assassinate my character you have accused me of both extremes.... too little study and too much study. Why not just have the conversation/healthy debate here? Truth will be victorious then, and Jesus is the Truth, not man made doctrine. This doctrine is one that is a direct result of "reactionary religion" In seeing the corruption of the Catholic church with the veneration of the saints and indulgences paid, Luther reacted and went to the other extreme and a vital doctrine of the church was lost. The direct result of this is the denominationalism we see in Protestantism, do you think this pleases Christ? When the church is of "one accord" she is empowered by Spirit and becomes that light in dark world she was meant to be.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Just tryin to have the conversation.... it is you who are shutting it down.

[/QUOTE]
I am not shutting it down, I will talk to you freely

I think my point is valid, and I am not thinking outside the box of scripture, but rather a man made doctrine routed in Luther and Calvin that says all believers are saints...

Well I follow neither Luther or Calvin, or any other man.

and you can;t make a valid point when you try to put everyone under some group and say they are all together.. You talk to induviduals not churches.

find the verse that states this. In fact the opposite is true, the saints and the faithful are addressed as two distinct groups in scripture. It is presumptuous to assume that all believers are saints, not to mention arrogant, considering a saint is chosen by divine Lot (2 Peter 1:1).... I do not even assume that I am one but consider myself among the faithful.

A saint is set apart one. God sets them apart..

If being a saint depends on us, we would never make it.

 

[David H.]

If being a saint depends on us, we would never make it.

I Agree, that is where election and calling come in... God chooses who is and who is not one.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So which is it? I Haven't done the research or I have? in your attempt to assassinate my character you have accused me of both extremes.... too little study and too much study.

The court is still out. I can only react to your arrogant statements and draw conclusions based on those.

Why not just have the conversation/healthy debate here?

I tried. You refused.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I Agree, that is where election and calling come in... God chooses who is and who is not one.

Yes, By his omniscience. He chose all who would believe

 

[David H.]

Yes, By his omniscience. He chose all who would believe

True, but the faithful must choose to believe.... God will not force His will upon man. Calling and election are another matter, misapplied by Calvinism to salvation itself as opposed to the high calling to be saints. We as the faithful must make our calling and election sure, that we may be partakers of the divine nature in this world, as the apostles themselves did making the saintly sacrifice. (2 Peter 1:4-10) That kind of "like precious faith" is not chosen by man but by divine lot (2 Peter 1:1, See definition of Lagchano Obtained) In Other words, we are all on the road to being amongst the saints, but only God chooses who will be called to be saints. The rest of us remain amongst the faithful bride.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

True, but the faithful must choose to believe.... God will not force His will upon man. Calling and election are another matter, misapplied by Calvinism to salvation itself as opposed to the high calling to be saints. We as the faithful must make our calling and election sure, that we may be partakers of the divine nature in this world, as the apostles themselves did making the saintly sacrifice. (2 Peter 1:4-10) That kind of "like precious faith" is not chosen by man but by divine lot (2 Peter 1:1, See definition of Lagchano Obtained) In Other words, we are all on the road to being amongst the saints, but only God chooses who will be called to be saints. The rest of us remain amongst the faithful bride.

Where do you come up with this?

A saint is anyone born of God. They are not saints because they are good, they are saints because God gave them the right to be called children of God.

the saints and faithful bride are the same..

 

[David H.]

the saints and faithful bride are the same..

That is where we disagree... This is the great error of Protestantism that has led to endless denominationalism.... calling all believers saints. God's army consists of the saints, His bride is distinct from that.