Perseverance : of the Saints

[CadyandZoe]

This is the great error of Protestantism... this is the indoctrination i speak about, this is the protestant "dogma" if you will that is so ingrained in all sides of Protestantism that they are blind to it. This is a teaching of men (Luther and Calvin among others). It was a reactionary doctrine to the false and corrupt veneration of the saints and paying indulgences to the saints of the catholic church. In throwing out the dirty bathwater, the reformers threw out the "baby" therein.

I Challenge you to find me the verse that says "all those in Christ are saints".... The saints are chosen by God from amongst the faithful.

Here is a problem. You refuse to hear what we say because, in your words, we are "indoctrinated," which strongly implies that we live under an authoritarian religious system, thinking uncritically and believing whatever the minister says.

I already gave you solid Biblical reasons why all the faithful are called saints, instead of what you believe, that only some are saints. You refused to listen and not only that, but you insulted my intelligence and my integrity. I told you that your behavior is indicative of a "religious" belief, which is not based on sound reason, but on the affirmation of dogma. You are guilty of every charge you level against us.

We can have this discussion of you like, but it will be a discussion or nothing. We are not impressed with your narrative as to why you think Protestants were duped into believing false doctrine. That dog don't hunt.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here is a problem. You refuse to hear what we say because, in your words, we are "indoctrinated," which strongly implies that we live under an authoritarian religious system, thinking uncritically and believing whatever the minister says.

I already gave you solid Biblical reasons why all the faithful are called saints, instead of what you believe, that only some are saints. You refused to listen and not only that, but you insulted my intelligence and my integrity. I told you that your behavior is indicative of a "religious" belief, which is not based on sound reason, but on the affirmation of dogma. You are guilty of every charge you level against us.

We can have this discussion of you like, but it will be a discussion or nothing. We are not impressed with your narrative as to why you think Protestants were duped into believing false doctrine. That dog don't hunt.

Many protestants were duped . Not all , but many were and are today .
The mystery of inquity is filling up christendom . A harlot who has many daughters are at work
to totally leaven up and reshape the entire realm of christendom to sit under MAMA HARLOT and her father the dragon .
And not just christendom , but its merging all other false religoins , even the world as one
under what she calleth love . BEWARE , cause its all over the place .

 

[Ritajanice]

What does you first sentence say . You wrote to david and said , THIS IS ALL getting what ................CONFUSING .
IS GOD the author of confusion .
NOPE . men are .
The saints ARE THE FAITHFUL . its plain and simple if we read the bible .
but men always come along who often through their own doctrines make it CONFUSING . always remember that .
THE WISDOM that cometh of GOD is FIRST PURE , peaceable , easy to be entreated .
ITS MEN who make things confusing .

Do you know...I’ve had to cut myself off....from a professing Born Again....the confusion she fed me was unreal....so know exactly what you are saying here.

Thank you Lord...I needed to hear this message...

 

[Ritajanice]

but men always come along who often through their own doctrines make it CONFUSING . always remember that .
THE WISDOM that cometh of GOD is FIRST PURE , peaceable , easy to be entreated .
ITS MEN who make things confusing .

100% Amen!!....there is no confusion from God...Praise His Holy Name.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I Misconstrued Paul who himself distinguishes between the faithful and the saints in all his writings? How can you take up a collection for the saints if all the faithful are the saints, for example?

Do me a favor, I say this not to insult you, but instead of leaning on your own understanding, (Proverbs 3:5-6) Seek the truth (Jesus is the truth).... That simple shift of perspective will allow you to find the truth and be taught by the Spirit of Truth as you study scripture. It will also make this conversation fruitful if you wish to continue.

Do us all a favor and support your position with reasons and facts and drop the hysterics. Let's look at

Ephesians 1:1-2

From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints [in Ephesus], the faithful in Christ Jesus. 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!​

​

The Greek here literally reads, τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν [ἐν Ἐφέσῳ] καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, translated "to the saints, to those living in Ephesus and faithful in Jesus Christ. In this passage, Paul implies that saints and faithful are not two distinct groups. He suggests that they are the same group by repeating the phrase "to those" twice, without any conjunction between them. This implies that saints and faithful refer to the same set of people.


by this construction,

 

[CadyandZoe]

I Misconstrued Paul who himself distinguishes between the faithful and the saints in all his writings? How can you take up a collection for the saints if all the faithful are the saints, for example?

Do me a favor, I say this not to insult you, but instead of leaning on your own understanding, (Proverbs 3:5-6) Seek the truth (Jesus is the truth).... That simple shift of perspective will allow you to find the truth and be taught by the Spirit of Truth as you study scripture. It will also make this conversation fruitful if you wish to continue.

Let's look at another passage you mentioned.

Romans 1:1-7

1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;​

​

7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

In this passage, the apostle Paul closely associates those "called of Jesus Christ" with those who are "called saints". This shows that in his mind, there is no distinction between the followers of Jesus Christ and the saints. Paul is addressing one group of people: 1) those who live in Rome, 2) those who were divinely appointed to be in Christ Jesus, and 3) those who were divinely appointed to be holy ones (saints). There is no distinction between these three qualities in his eyes.

​

 

[David H.]

You keep mentioning the faithful...who are they?

This is all getting very confusing.

Are you saying The saints are chosen by God from amongst the faithful.

If you are, please explain?

Welcome to the conversation. The faithful are all believers, the saints are those called of God to be saints from amongst the faithful... this is the high calling of God in Christ which often times results in persecution trials testing refining of the faith, and finally in some cases martyrdom. In Revelation God's army consists of the saints, the Bride are the faithful.

 

[David H.]

The saints ARE THE FAITHFUL .

True, but not all the faithful are saints. In fact, it is not even the leaders and pastors in the church that are saints, but the Lowly and humble heart. It is you who are bringing confusion by subscribing to the protestant teaching of men (Calvin and Luther etc) who teach that all believers are saints.... the confusion that has resulted from this is nearly 200 major protestant denominations, and thousands of minor ones.... Is this how Christ wants his Body to be????? (1 Corinthians 12)

It is easy to point the finger at others, hard to see is the error inside yourself.

 

[David H.]

Let's look at another passage you mentioned.

Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.In this passage, the apostle Paul closely associates those "called of Jesus Christ" with those who are "called saints". This shows that in his mind, there is no distinction between the followers of Jesus Christ and the saints. Paul is addressing one group of people: 1) those who live in Rome, 2) those who were divinely appointed to be in Christ Jesus, and 3) those who were divinely appointed to be holy ones (saints). There is no distinction between these three qualities in his eyes.

Where you see one I see two.... My conclusions come from years of Study of the whole of scripture, There is no one passage that directly says this but a myriad of them that prove this both Old and new Testaments, where the concept of saints was established.

hysterics.

please stop being offended and let us reason together....if not, it is not worth discussing with you because you are not ready to digest this.

 

[Ritajanice]

Welcome to the conversation. The faithful are all believers, the saints are those called of God to be saints from amongst the faithful... this is the high calling of God in Christ which often times results in persecution trials testing refining of the faith, and finally in some cases martyrdom. In Revelation God's army consists of the saints, the Bride are the faithful.

Thank you for explaining.

High calling of God...is that biblical?

 

[David H.]

Do us all a favor and support your position with reasons and facts and drop the hysterics. Let's look at

Ephesians 1:1-2
From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints [in Ephesus], the faithful in Christ Jesus. 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!The Greek here literally reads, τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν [ἐν Ἐφέσῳ] καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, translated "to the saints, to those living in Ephesus and faithful in Jesus Christ. In this passage, Paul implies that saints and faithful are not two distinct groups. He suggests that they are the same group by repeating the phrase "to those" twice, without any conjunction between them. This implies that saints and faithful refer to the same set of people.


by this construction,

Again two groups, faithful "and" the saints... Lets walk through the text of Ephesians a bit from that point on.

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, (1:15) "Faithful" showing Love unto the Saints...
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,(1:18) Encouraging the faithful to seek the high calling of the saints and the enlightenment of your understanding.... This is part of Paul's first prayer to the Ephesian church..... this is where it all began for me personally... I Prayed that prayer.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (2:19) again saints are distinct from these new Gentile believers, but they are all of the Household of God, and fellow citizens.

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; (3:18) The saints having a deeper understanding of the faith because of them being
perfected....(see below) The divine nature I spoke of from 2 Peter 1:4

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (4:11-13) Sainthood is an end of the life lived for Christ, and not an instantaneous accomplishment once we are saved, to say otherwise is to end up with two outcomes, a faith without works, and or a legalism that results in works by the own will and strength of the individual. How many times on Forums such as this do you see law pitted against grace.... when the two go hand in hand? What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[David H.]

High calling of God...is that biblical?

yes,

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:13-14)

Notice, even Paul by this time in his life had made all his ministry journeys, and was imprisoned in Rome when he wrote this, said and understood that he was still pressing on toward that goal, and had not yet attained that status yet.... In Ephesians he calls himself the "least of the saints." see link below for order Paul's Epistles written in....

Paul, Apostle of Christ, Chronological Order of the Letters, Who Was Paul?, The Letter to the Romans - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

God bless

 

[CadyandZoe]

Welcome to the conversation. The faithful are all believers, the saints are those called of God to be saints from amongst the faithful... this is the high calling of God in Christ which often times results in persecution trials testing refining of the faith, and finally in some cases martyrdom. In Revelation God's army consists of the saints, the Bride are the faithful.

Every believer has trials of faith. There is no higher calling that to be a follower of Jesus Christ. I don't see a special calling or a higher calling in the New Testament.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where you see one I see two....

I proved to you that you have no textual justification for your conclusion.

My conclusions come from years of Study of the whole of scripture,

So what?

There is no one passage that directly says this but a myriad of them that prove this both Old and new Testaments, where the concept of saints was established.

My guess is that you are misunderstanding them based on your presupposition.

please stop being offended and let us reason together....if not, it is not worth discussing with you because you are not ready to digest this.

I just proved that your verses don't say what you think they say. Digest that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again two groups, faithful "and" the saints... Lets walk through the text of Ephesians a bit from that point on.

Not two groups.

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, (1:15) "Faithful" showing Love unto the Saints...

You missed a word. Paul is speaking about love unto ALL the saints, indicating other followers of Christ outside of the city of Ephesus. Paul uses this phrase quite often when speaking about believers in other cities, the emphasis is on the unity of the body. To have a love for ALL the saints is to make no distinction between any of them. As Paul says elsewhere, in Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free. There are no saints vs. faithful. We are all one in Christ.

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,(1:18) Encouraging the faithful to seek the high calling of the saints

No, Paul is praying to God, not encouraging anyone. You tend to read ideas in to the text that aren't there.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (2:19) again saints are distinct from these new Gentile believers, but they are all of the Household of God, and fellow citizens.

No, Paul's point here is to teach us that the household of God consists of saints and that new Gentile believers become saints when the enter the household of God.

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; (3:18) The saints having a deeper understanding of the faith because of them being perfected....(see below) The divine nature I spoke of from 2 Peter 1:4

Here again, Paul uses the phrase ALL saints, indicating the entire body of Christ all of whom are saints.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Did you catch that? The entire body of Christ consists of saints.

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (4:11-13) Sainthood is an end of the life lived for Christ, and not an instantaneous accomplishment once we are saved, to say otherwise is to end up with two outcomes, a faith without works, and or a legalism that results in works by the own will and strength of the individual.

Sainthood is not something we accomplish. Sainthood is a state of being granted to a person. As I said before, the term "saint" is Latin for "holy one" and all those in Christ are holy ones, because they have been give the Holy Spirit as an earnest of their inheritance.

How many times on Forums such as this do you see law pitted against grace.... when the two go hand in hand? What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We don't evaluate a truth claim according to how people misuse it.

 

[David H.]

Every believer has trials of faith. There is no higher calling that to be a follower of Jesus Christ. I don't see a special calling or a higher calling in the New Testament.

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High calling of God...is that biblical?

yes,

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:13-14)

Notice, even Paul by this time in his life had made all his ministry journeys, and was imprisoned in Rome when he wrote this, said and understood that he was still pressing on toward that goal, and had not yet attained that status yet.... In Ephesians he calls himself the "least of the saints." see link below for order Paul's Epistles written in....

I proved to you that you have no textual justification for your conclusion.

My guess is that you are misunderstanding them based on your presupposition.

Could say the same for you.... Your presupposition is your Protestant Dogma that all believers are saints. You see this in the text because of your presupposition, Or what I prefer calling them is assumptions.... It is really hard to see all of our own assumptions with which we approach a text because our upbringing is such that it cannot distinguish between indoctrination and sound doctrine.... We all carry the baggage of indoctrination.

I just proved that your verses don't say what you think they say. Digest that.

You Proved to me that you are wholly subscribed to the Protestant Dogma that is all. You merely reinforced that Dogma instead of learning from the Spirit.... or being teachable.

No, Paul is praying to God, not encouraging anyone. You tend to read ideas in to the text that aren't there.

Again, that is your Dogma reinforcing itself in you..... I don't think you are ready to hear what God has given me to say, So I will refrain from commenting to you since it will not be fruitful.

God Bless.

 

[David H.]

Sainthood is a state of being granted to a person.

ALL of Paul's teaching contradict this position...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank you for explaining.

High calling of God...is that biblical?

After conducting further investigation, I have decided to edit my post. David seems to suggest a division in the Body of Christ, where some individuals are chosen by God for a "higher calling" as he puts it. However, he quoted a passage from the book of Philippians from a misleading translation. Paul was not referring to a "higher calling," which usually denotes a sense of purpose or mission in one's life. Instead, he was talking about an "upward calling," which refers to his spiritual walk and keeping his focus on Christ. While Paul did have a unique calling to be an apostle to the Gentiles, he shares his "upward" calling with all those whom he refers to as "the true circumcision," who worship in the Spirit of God, glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh...

@Ritajanice @Eternally Grateful

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, it is Biblical as David points out. But Paul the Apostle is talking about the high calling associated with all who are "in Christ" as he defines it. A person is "in Christ" if that individual believes the gospel, is endowed with the Spirit, and walks in the Spirit.

David is postulating that the "high calling" is another category apart from being "in Christ", which is not Biblical.

You can’t get any higher calling...than a Born Again.

 

[CadyandZoe]

ALL of Paul's teaching contradict this position...

Show the contradiction if you can.