Please explain this.

[GodsGrace]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Neither of those last two statements are in the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

What James wrote, as shown above, are direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

The religious who advocate works can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

However, it was compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH in Christ’s work on the cross but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace. The very fact that it was addressed to Jews (James 1:1) is more proof that it was only for the Jews who were under the law.

It remains to be seen that the religious will try to destroy what I have written by attacking me, personally, and it will show that they want people to believe we are under the law in this age of God’s grace. They can easily attack me but they can not say that the scriptures I have presented do not say what I have reported them to say.

Under grace a person must place their faith (belief) in God’s promise of salvation based on their belief in what He (Jesus) did on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. Through the gospel of grace that was given to Paul God, Himself, paid for the sins of the world and a person has to believe it to have salvation. If they do not then they are condemned because they do not believe God.

How can it be possible to state that God based Abraham's righteousness on faith ALONE, when it's clear that Abraham obeyed everything God told him to do?

1. Abraham lived in a world of pantheism. The true God revealed Himself to Abraham whem he was in Harran.

2. Abraham accepted this God that revealed Himself and when he was told to leave Harran and go to Caanan, Abraham obeyed.

At this point he was ALREADY right with God.

God revealed Himself.
Abraham accepted God.
God gave instructions.
Abraham obeyed them.

Isn't leaving one's hometown (of Harran) a work?
Certainly it is...if it isn't, I don't know what work is.

We see here the total picture of soteriology


When Abraham did NOT KNOW GOD,,, he also did not have to heed Him.
AFTER Abraham knew God,.,, he obeyed God.

Salvation
Obedience......makes us right with God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Has H.R. spoke against the value of doing good works by those who have been saved by grace through faith? Because here he has not. On the contrary, by this thread alone, it would seem that his only gripe is against those who advocate works as being necessary for salvation.

To be clear, if one is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ one moment, and dies the moment after, without doing any good works...he is still saved.

What a silly example.
Let's speak about those that don't die one second after they're saved.
If they continue to live...which most do....
are they to sit comfy and do nothing of what God would want them to do?

Faith only is not biblical.

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)
Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience

 

[H. Richard]

Hi Richard,

I'm thinking that if we consider what is being justified to whom?

I hear James saying that I can tell you I have faith, but you can't see my faith, you can only see my works.

In that God already knows whether we have a true and saving faith, that we've been born again, I understand Him to be telling us that we can tell the sort of our faith by what we do, and that many can say they have faith, even the demons believe! But we know Rahab's faith was real because of what she did.

That's how I see it.

Much love!
Mark

Mark, I can tell the faith of others by what they have faith in. If it is in their works to be good, and,or their religion, then I do not see a faith that will save. What I see is that they have placed their faith in religion and its works.

 

[H. Richard]

How can it be possible to state that God based Abraham's righteousness on faith ALONE, when it's clear that Abraham obeyed everything God told him to do?

1. Abraham lived in a world of pantheism. The true God revealed Himself to Abraham whem he was in Harran.

2. Abraham accepted this God that revealed Himself and when he was told to leave Harran and go to Caanan, Abraham obeyed.

At this point he was ALREADY right with God.

God revealed Himself.
Abraham accepted God.
God gave instructions.
Abraham obeyed them.

Isn't leaving one's hometown (of Harran) a work?
Certainly it is...if it isn't, I don't know what work is.

We see here the total picture of soteriology


When Abraham did NOT KNOW GOD,,, he also did not have to heed Him.
AFTER Abraham knew God,.,, he obeyed God.

Salvation
Obedience......makes us right with God.

Because Paul said he was through faith alone.

Acts 26:18
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
NKJV

Rom 3:21-24
God's Righteousness Through Faith 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
NKJV

Rom 4:1-4
Abraham Justified by Faith (Gen 17:10) 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What a silly example.
Let's speak about those that don't die one second after they're saved.
If they continue to live...which most do....
are they to sit comfy and do nothing of what God would want them to do?

Faith only is not biblical.

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)
Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience

I do understand what you're saying here. And I do agree with it. And I also know that when we argue against something, we are doing it because we see a mistake.

Laying aside the mistake many men are in though, it really is only through faith (trust) that we fulfill the law (are obedient).

 

[ScottA]

What a silly example.
Let's speak about those that don't die one second after they're saved.
If they continue to live...which most do....
are they to sit comfy and do nothing of what God would want them to do?

Faith only is not biblical.

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)
Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience

There is nothing silly about the clear and complete work of God toward salvation.

What is not silly but sad, is that after 2000 years people still don't understand that on the one hand we "can do nothing", and on the other, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." To think that this is not now crystal clear among those who claim to know Christ, is not only sad, but comes with consequence--some claiming to do things in His name as if they actually knew Him, are to be told "I never knew you."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is nothing silly about the clear and complete work of God toward salvation.

What is not silly but sad, is that after 2000 years people still don't understand that on the one hand we "can do nothing", and on the other, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." To think that this is not now crystal clear among those who claim to know Christ, is not only sad, but comes with consequence--some claiming to do things in His name as if they actually knew Him, are to be told "I never knew you."

That's the balance thing, can do nothing/can do all things through Christ.

We were just speaking about another of those balances, fear of God/perfect love casts out all fear.

I think unless you have got in that balance in a matter, you can't help people, but can only be in the current unbalance you are in until He brings you to the balance in the matter.

 

[marks]

[

Yes! I agree with you and Enoch here. I think maybe...real Gnosticism is a disconnect from reality. I have heard men called Gnostics who were quite clearly explaining a spiritual thing, when really, it was the man leveling the charge against another who was the Gnostic! If a spiritual thing is true, we will see its effects on earth, won't we?

So its a disconnect from reality to think it's effects won't be seen here.

I think the Gnostics were actually a sect of Judiasm, blending into Christianity, that held to a rather different idea of God and His works than we do.

They claimed as the foundation for their deviations from the Scritpures that the had Knowledge, gnostikos, or Gnostic.

I think when some people level this charge is is because of a perceived departure from the Text of Scripture, with the claim, I have additional knowledge.

But yes, what is true, will be true. Reaping and sowing, merciful receive mercy, much to be said about that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Mark, I can tell the faith of others by what they have faith in. If it is in their works to be good, and,or their religion, then I do not see a faith that will save. What I see is that they have placed their faith in religion and its works.

How can you know whether I have faith or not? I can tell you I have faith, but many do that. I say, I am trusting in Jesus for my salvation. Is my faith real?

Much love!

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Yes, I knew that you read it, but you stated that, works was not together with faith, which Faith and works goes together, wouldn't they?

One Coin, Two Sides

James and Paul go together. Like two sides of the same coin, they don't conflict with each other; they complement each other. Both teach us something vital. Paul looks at what goes on internally; James talks about the external results. Paul says, "We're saved by faith." James says, "This is what saving faith looks like."

The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4-8
Christians need "justification" plus "justification." Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It's not saving faith.

 

[marks]

Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It's not saving faith.

Well stated!

 

[WalterandDebbie]

How can it be possible to state that God based Abraham's righteousness on faith ALONE, when it's clear that Abraham obeyed everything God told him to do?

1. Abraham lived in a world of pantheism. The true God revealed Himself to Abraham whem he was in Harran.

2. Abraham accepted this God that revealed Himself and when he was told to leave Harran and go to Caanan, Abraham obeyed.

At this point he was ALREADY right with God.

God revealed Himself.
Abraham accepted God.
God gave instructions.
Abraham obeyed them.

Isn't leaving one's hometown (of Harran) a work?
Certainly it is...if it isn't, I don't know what work is.

We see here the total picture of soteriology


When Abraham did NOT KNOW GOD,,, he also did not have to heed Him.
AFTER Abraham knew God,.,, he obeyed God.

Salvation
Obedience......makes us right with God.

Amen

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Well stated!

Amen

 

[WalterandDebbie]

One Coin, Two Sides

James and Paul go together. Like two sides of the same coin, they don't conflict with each other; they complement each other. Both teach us something vital. Paul looks at what goes on internally; James talks about the external results. Paul says, "We're saved by faith." James says, "This is what saving faith looks like."

The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4-8
Christians need "justification" plus "justification." Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It's not saving faith.

Amen

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Paul said he was through faith alone.

Acts 26:18
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
NKJV

Rom 3:21-24
God's Righteousness Through Faith 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
NKJV

Rom 4:1-4
Abraham Justified by Faith (Gen 17:10) 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

First of all
NOBODY IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS.

How many times does this need to be repeated.
Apparently, to those that DO NOT UNDERSTANT JUSTIFICATION,
it must be repeated many times.

And, quite frankly, it seems to me that you trust Paul
more than Jesus
more than the written word...which you could read on your own..
but apparently you don't seem to understand it very well.

Abraham was JUSTIFIED the moment he obeyed God and left his home in Harran.

Do you think the apostles sat around and tried to figure out what justified means and when it happens? Maybe theologians figured this out?

Yes. The Apostles were interested in what JESUS said...
NOT WHAT PAUL SAID.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do understand what you're saying here. And I do agree with it. And I also know that when we argue against something, we are doing it because we see a mistake.

Laying aside the mistake many men are in though, it really is only through faith (trust) that we fulfill the law (are obedient).

Sure.
But some state it as if it's not necessary to even obey.
I don't really argue much stuff....I think salvation economy is very important.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is nothing silly about the clear and complete work of God toward salvation.

What is not silly but sad, is that after 2000 years people still don't understand that on the one hand we "can do nothing", and on the other, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." To think that this is not now crystal clear among those who claim to know Christ, is not only sad, but comes with consequence--some claiming to do things in His name as if they actually knew Him, are to be told "I never knew you."

He never knew those that practice LAWLESSNESS.

It's also sad that after 2,000 years we don't want to know what Jesus actually said or what He meant...which is quite clear in scripture.

Jesus said to believe and be baptized.
For some reason He said to do this.
It must be done.

If a person comes to believe in Christ and has not been baptized yet,,,that is up to God to know the reason.

Maybe that person didn't know...
Maybe that person had INTENDED to...

I trust our merciful God...
But I think it's incorrect to say that baptism is not necessary when Jesus said it is.

 

[H. Richard]

First of all
NOBODY IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS.

How many times does this need to be repeated.
Apparently, to those that DO NOT UNDERSTANT JUSTIFICATION,
it must be repeated many times.

And, quite frankly, it seems to me that you trust Paul
more than Jesus
more than the written word...which you could read on your own..
but apparently you don't seem to understand it very well.

Abraham was JUSTIFIED the moment he obeyed God and left his home in Harran.

Do you think the apostles sat around and tried to figure out what justified means and when it happens? Maybe theologians figured this out?

Yes. The Apostles were interested in what JESUS said...
NOT WHAT PAUL SAID.

Jesus, specifically sent Paul to the world with a gospel of grace. So why do you think I trust Paul more than Jesus. But I get that all the time.

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles. He sent Paul to go to the Gentiles. If your faith is not in the writings of Paul then you are in the wrong gospel. The world will be judged by Paul's gospel of grace.

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith —
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
NKJV

2 Tim 2:8-9
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

First of all
NOBODY IS JUSTIFIED BY WORKS.

How many times does this need to be repeated.
Apparently, to those that DO NOT UNDERSTANT JUSTIFICATION,
it must be repeated many times.

And, quite frankly, it seems to me that you trust Paul
more than Jesus
more than the written word...which you could read on your own..
but apparently you don't seem to understand it very well.

Abraham was JUSTIFIED the moment he obeyed God and left his home in Harran.

Do you think the apostles sat around and tried to figure out what justified means and when it happens? Maybe theologians figured this out?

Yes. The Apostles were interested in what JESUS said...
NOT WHAT PAUL SAID.

Oh, but to many if you don't do works you are not saved. Where have you been? The most talked about subject is works.

 

[justbyfaith]

Salvation
Obedience......makes us right with God.

Living and saving faith alone...makes us right with God.

Such a faith will always produce obedience if given the opportunity.

Faith only is not biblical.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Yes. The Apostles were interested in what JESUS said...
NOT WHAT PAUL SAID.

Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit who would guide the disciples into all truth (John 14:26, John 16:13). This is what makes such epistles as 2 Peter authoritative.

It is 2 Peter 3:15-16 that makes Paul's writings authoritative.

And Paul's statement in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 makes everything else in scripture authoritative.