Please explain this.

[justbyfaith]

Hi JBF,

Curious, how do you substantiate this interpretation, that this is hyperbole? And not a literal statement of fact?

Much love!

Simply by virtue of the fact that most people will not accept it as a statement of fact; and therefore to present it as hyperbole and to then bring it back around to being a statement of fact, by the logic of other scriptures, seems to be the only option; as an attempt to get people to take the scriptures at face value.

Now of course, taking it as hyperbole does allow for Romans 4:5 to be brought into the interpretation; so that a man can be considered born of God although he continues to sin in an ungodly fashion.

My teaching on that scripture, is that our identity in Christ is that we are declared righteous even when we blow it (i.e. when we live ungodly) because our faith is purely reckoned as righteousness.

But now that you have that identity, the exhortation is to go and live like it (according to 1 John 3:7; see also Matthew 5:6 and Romans 5:17, Romans 5:19).

 

[marks]

We may still mess up from time to time;

I think this is what I'm saying. It happens, and there should be no expectation that we can ever know that we are truly living without sin. I say this because of 1 Cor 4, where Paul wrote that he doesn't judge himself, not because he never does wrong, but because he's not qualified to judge.

So how am I supposed to be qualified to even know for certain whether I've sinned or not? God most certainly brings things to my attention, but hey, it's not lost on me that things He's put on my radar today weren't there in past years. He's working His way through me, apparently.

There is a second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15) awaiting those who are headed toward the new country, the moment they cross the boundary from the old country into the new. I do not believe that this second benefit = physical death.

2 Corinthians
14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.

What exactly is this benefit? How can we know from the Bible?

As I read this, it's like saying, I was there before and it was helpful to you, and now I want to come back to you to be again helpful to you. I'm sure that's just what it was anytime Paul was in town teaching and preaching. Always something to be gained.

But some specific spiritual gain, and defined how? The ability to defeat sin? That comes in rebirth, doesn't it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Simply by virtue of the fact that most people will not accept it as a statement of fact; and therefore to present it as hyperbole and to then bring it back around to being a statement of fact, by the logic of other scriptures, seems to be the only option; as an attempt to get people to take the scriptures at face value.

OK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like saying, "It's hyperbole because no one believes it could actually be true."

I accept it as a plain statement of fact.

Much love!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Sorry, I got your words mixed up. You may have indeed been talking about John Calvin; but it appeared that you were talking about me.

Not, "may have been" was [talking about John Calvin].

You wrote:



And in the very next post, you wrote:

So what? I was holding two conversations simultaneously. It appears that you were being hypersensitive.

In your second post, I simply failed to see the quote of what you were responding to; and assumed that there was a continuity in what you were posting.

That to which I was responding was plainly obvious had you bothered to ascertain it before charging off...

In any case, your comment about John Calvin spilled over to include me because of how close these things were in context to each other.

I have no control of where my responses will show up in the comment stream.

 

[justbyfaith]

2 Corinthians
14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.

What exactly is this benefit? How can we know from the Bible?

We can put two and two together to determine that it is either entire sanctification (1 Thess. 5:23-24 (kjv)) or the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

OK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like saying, "It's hyperbole because no one believes it could actually be true."

I accept it as a plain statement of fact.

Much love!

So then, either you cannot sin or else you are not born of God. Which one is it?

 

[justbyfaith]

So what? I was holding two conversations simultaneously. It appears that you were being hypersensitive.

In any case, I'm glad I responded the way I did; because my response answered something that apparently the devil intended to use as an accusation against me.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

In any case, I'm glad I responded the way I did; because my response answered something that apparently the devil intended to use as an accusation against me.

So, in other words, you are taking back your apology for misinterpreting what I said? That's like the guy who insists he's never wrong and when others point to his lack of humility, his response is, "Well, I did think I was wrong once...but I was wrong about that." LOL.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, in other words, you are taking back your apology for misinterpreting what I said? That's like the guy who insists he's never wrong and when others point to his lack of humility, his response is, "Well, I did think I was wrong once...but I was wrong about that." LOL.

No, I'm not taking back my apology. I'm just saying I'm glad that I responded the way I did. Because while you were blameless in the situation, apparently the devil was meaning something by it that my response was able to deal with.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, I'm not taking back my apology. I'm just saying I'm glad that I responded the way I did. Because while you were blameless in the situation, apparently the devil was meaning something by it that my response was able to deal with.

CAREFUL!

 

[justbyfaith]

CAREFUL!

about what?

It should be clear that the devil is the accuser of the brethren.

It certainly wasn't the Holy Spirit who was attempting to accuse me of being a false teacher by the events that have unfolded here.

 

[Grailhunter]

about what?

You get into the devil speak and get rude with her and is going to go south right away

 

[marks]

We can put two and two together to determine that it is either entire sanctification (1 Thess. 5:23-24 (kjv)) or the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Really? Can you share more of your reasoning? I just don't see how Paul saying that he wants to come visit this church again so that they can receive a second benefit, or gift/grace, would indicate that there is a Second Benefit that enables you to live an holy life, and that until you receive it you cannot.

So then, either you cannot sin or else you are not born of God. Which one is it?

I, the child born from God, do not sin, and therefore there is no condemnation. Does God play Let's Pretend? Does God merely pretend (lie to Himself and others) that I am holy and righteous, or has He actually made me holy and righteous?

Much love!

 

[marks]

about what?

It should be clear that the devil is the accuser of the brethren.

It certainly wasn't the Holy Spirit who was attempting to accuse me of being a false teacher by the events that have unfolded here.

Um . . . the devil is not the only accuser of the brethren. We do a pretty good job ourselves also.

And in that threads can be reviewed, we can see where any one of us may have contributed to a negative direction in the thread.

We need to be careful - me too - to only speak (write) that which gives grace to the hearer (reader).

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, now, I may be off-base to expect that people would take all of my posts into account when estimating what I believe in.

I consider that I have laid a foundation in other posts within the past 5 months wherein I have taught on what I believe 1 John 3:9 really teaches. But since some of you may have missed what I said on the subject, I will repeat it here, just so you can get a more accurate account of what I believe in; and what I mean when I say certain things.

Yes. Repeating is good.
And also, you're going to have to learn how to put the question in your answer because it takes a REALLY LONG time to answer to your posts and some of us don't have that time!

AND...what do you mean that you're here to teach?
You got a PhD or something?

Of course, when I say such things as what John said in 1 John 3:9, I am taken literally and am called to the carpet for my statements. When he says it, it is interpreted by the hearer as saying something other than what he actually said.

I even do this; and have interpreted 1 John 3:9 as being a statement of hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point).

So, when I say that we, as believers, do not sin; or that we cannot sin, I am also using hyperbole.

The point that I (and John) would make by this statement is that when we repent and turn to Christ in faith, there is a 180-degree turn that is made from walking towards sin, death, and hell, towards righteousness, life, and heaven.

Whew!
Hyperbole.
OK!
So far, so good.
But, do us all a favor, DON'T USE HYPERBOLE.
Some of us can't tell what you're doing -- like me for instance.
And we take you LITERALLY.
And we all know that a sinless life is impossible...
so you MAKE US WASTE A LOT OF TIME DEBATING A HYPERBOLE!!!!!!!!!!

We are not walking in the same direction any more; our lives have changed. I hold that 1 John 3:9 is saying exactly the same thing as 2 Corinthians 5:17.

We are headed towards a new country, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and away from the old country, SIN.

Now when we cross the boundary into the new country, we have left the old country.

And I consider that the immediate result does not necessarily have to be physical death.

Even once we have crossed the boundary into the new country, I consider that our righteousness will continue to increase.

Good!
Still OK.
Thank You God !

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

I consider that the moment we begin to head towards the new country, we are justified before the Lord; for we have made that 180-degree turn. We may still mess up from time to time; because we have not yet left the old country: nevertheless our direction has changed and this is what the Lord sees.

THIS IS SOOOOO EXCITING!!!

There is a second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15) awaiting those who are headed toward the new country, the moment they cross the boundary from the old country into the new. I do not believe that this second benefit = physical death.

Some people give me the impression that in our quest for sanctification, the goal is to physically die.

Because if you were to ever reach the goal of entire sanctification, in their estimation that means the Lord will immediately take you home.

Oh no.

 

[justbyfaith]

I just don't see how Paul saying that he wants to come visit this church again so that they can receive a second benefit, or gift/grace, would indicate that there is a Second Benefit that enables you to live an holy life, and that until you receive it you cannot.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is either talking about a second benefit or a first benefit.

If it is a first benefit, then why or how can the Lord say that He justifieth the ungodly?

AND...what do you mean that you're here to teach?
You got a PhD or something?

More like a spiritual gift...

But, do us all a favor, DON'T USE HYPERBOLE.
Some of us can't tell what you're doing -- like me for instance.
And we take you LITERALLY.

But you don't take the apostle John literally when he says the same thing...

Seems to me like people don't take the scriptures at face value.

However, 2 Corinthians 3:12 might tell you that this is exactly what we ought to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is either talking about a second benefit or a first benefit.

If it is a first benefit, then why or how can the Lord say that He justifieth the ungodly?



More like a spiritual gift...



But you don't take the apostle John literally when he says the same thing...

Seems to me like people don't take the scriptures at face value.

However, 2 Corinthians 3:12 might tell you that this is exactly what we ought to do.

JBF, Let me tell ya something.
If we took all of the N.T. literally,
we'd be having problems of conflicting reports.
We'd be eating the body of Jesus and drinking His blood every day.
Just like the canniblas we were thought to be.
We'd be sinning all the time because it's our FLESH that sins and not our SPIRIT.
We'd NEVER be sinning, because some verse say we who are born again will not sin.

I could go on, but it's getting late here and I'm tired.

What YOU believe is conflicting....
You keep posting 2 cor 1:15...I DON'T KNOW WHY.

You keep posting 1 John 3:9 like it's your life blood.
Could you reconcile it to 1 John 2:1
and
John 20:23

Thanks. I look forward to your answer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Um . . . the devil is not the only accuser of the brethren. We do a pretty good job ourselves also.

And in that threads can be reviewed, we can see where any one of us may have contributed to a negative direction in the thread.

We need to be careful - me too - to only speak (write) that which gives grace to the hearer (reader).

Much love!

Of course the devil does not like his name to be mentioned when he is up to something; he would rather be the invisible man and not be exposed as the one doing what is being done. He would love to accuse people and then have the blame taken off of him for having done the accusing...because if it wasn't the devil doing it, then it has more validity and he likes that...and therefore he would rather not have his schemes exposed as being from him.

It just, really did seem to me that there was an unfortunate twist in the way that the posts were related, that one after the other the devil worked it out to be an accusation against me in order to discredit my ministry; though I am now certain that it was not intended by the human being who wrote the accusation against John Calvin which by virtue of circumstance (even time and chance) spilled over onto me by virtue of simple adjacency (nearness).

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course the devil does not like his name to be mentioned when he is up to something; he would rather be the invisible man and not be exposed as the one doing what is being done. He would love to accuse people and then have the blame taken off of him for having done the accusing...because if it wasn't the devil doing it, then it has more validity and he likes that...and therefore he would rather not have his schemes exposed as being from him.

It just, really did seem to me that there was an unfortunate twist in the way that the posts were related, that one after the other the devil worked it out to be an accusation against me in order to discredit my ministry; though I am now certain that it was not intended by the human being who wrote the accusation against John Calvin which by virtue of circumstance (even time and chance) spilled over onto me by virtue of simple adjacency (nearness).

What do you mean YOU HAVE A MINISTRY?
By whom is it approved?
A priest?
A pastor?
A church?

WHO????

And please don't say the Holy Spirit because there's some problem between you and Him on some stuff....you do write great O.P.'s.
Maybe THAT could be your ministry?

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @GodsGrace,

That we are forgiven of sins in no way means that we have to continue to walk in them.

You asked for a reconciliation of the verses that you mentioned with 1 John 3:9 and 2 Corinthians 3:12....and the simple statement above reconciles them adequately for me.

 

[marks]

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is either talking about a second benefit or a first benefit.

If it is a first benefit, then why or how can the Lord say that He justifieth the ungodly?

1 Thessalonians 5:24 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

I think this verse is talking about what God is doing in all of His children, and what he will complete for all of His children in the end.

He is faithful, he will do it.

Were the Corinthians waiting for Paul to come and confer this gift so that they could then go on to be sanctified?

Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

I think it's an "all in" thing.

Being justified by God, we are all being sanctified, and we will all be sanctified.

The more this happens in this life, the more abundant our life will be, and the greater our reward.

why or how can the Lord say that He justifieth the ungodly?

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And in coming to Him believing, we are the ungodly, the guilty, and are made innocent.

But you don't take the apostle John literally when he says the same thing...
Seems to me like people don't take the scriptures at face value.
However, 2 Corinthians 3:12 might tell you that this is exactly what we ought to do.

Then shouldn't we take it literally? That which is born of God . . . sins not.

Much love!