Porphyry wants to know

[Matthias]

“Pre-Christian faith is valid up until that moment when Christ is preached, but not afterwards. When Christ is known, the obligation comes into force to believe on him. The unevangelized are expected to receive the Good News when it reaches them. God’s offer becomes an objective obligation at that time, and refusal to accept that offer would be fatal. No hope can be offered to those declining God’s offer to them in Christ.”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, p. 168)

 

[Matthias]

I’m about to finish (re)reading A Wideness in God’s Mercy.

I am, and always have been, a slow reader. My mind doesn’t easily move on. I linger on what is said, tend to think deeply about it and remember it for a long time. I can pick up a book I read thirty years ago and remember within a page or two, and precisely where on a page, something is written.

And that is with less challenging books than this one. This one is a favorite because it challenged my thinking “back then” and continues to do so today. I recommend the book - not because it agrees with what I think, in some instances it does not - but because it encourages me to continue thinking about the indisputable wideness of God’s mercy.

”What could be clearer proof of the faith principle that God saves people by faith on the basis of the light they have been given? Faith is our response to information about God the direction of trusting and obeying him.“

(A Wideness In God’s Mercy, p. 163)

But then he goes on to say in the very next sentence,

”Nobody can say how much or how little a person has to know in order to be saved.”

That’s not what I believed when I affirmed and recited the creeds. That’s not at all what “orthodoxy” tells us.

”What God really cares about is faith and not theology, trust ...”

(p. 112)

Sounds good, but here comes the boom.

”… and not orthodoxy.”

What really is orthodoxy?

For me, it is primitive Christianity. For others, it is developed Christianity. Is either camp satisfied with “and not orthodoxy”?

 

[Matthias]

“If I try and bend that far, I’ll break.”

 

[Matthias]

What I'm saying there is that I think a lot of people who are expecting eternal life, may not be getting it.

As for evangelical Christians... is there another group of Christians, or even some other religion, that acts better? All people are flawed, but especially in groups.

“It may even be that there is a greater danger for nominal Christians to be condemned rather than those who have not heard of Jesus. Jesus said, ‘to whom much is given, much will be required’ and ‘the first shall be last.’ On that basis, Amos wondered why his fellow Israelites were so looking forward to the day of the Lord, when it would almost certainly mean darkness and and not light for them (Am 4:12; 5:18-24). And Peter said judgment would begin at the house of the Lord (1 Pe 4:17). Perhaps we should not worry so much about the fate of the heathen before worrying about our own.”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, p. 175)

The last sentence is provocative.

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this morning -

“Kirk Cameron reveals he no longer believes in ‘eternal conscious torment’ for the wicked, which he suggests is ‘cruel and unusual punishment.’

Instead, he leans heavily towards annihilationism, saying, ‘It fits the character of God.’”

https://x.com/protestia/status/1997170896822296913?s=61

A link to the program episode where he discusses it with his son:

 

[shepherdsword]

“If Christ declares himself to be the way of salvation, the grace and truth, and affirms that in him alone, and only to souls believing in him, is the way of return to God, what has become of the men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came?”

What do you say to this ancient (3rd century) pagan critic of the way?

I would say "what is that to you? worry about your own eternal destiny"

 

[Matthias]

I would say "what is that to you? worry about your own eternal destiny"

So unlike Origen and others, you would forgo apologetics altogether. I think there’s a time and place for that.

 

[shepherdsword]

So unlike Origen and others, you would forgo apologetics altogether. I think there’s a time and place for that.

No, Like Jesus I would tell him to focus on where he has responsibility and trust that God will render a fair judgement.

Jn 21:22...If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 

[Matthias]

No, Like Jesus I would tell him to focus on where he has responsibility and trust that God will render a fair judgement.

Jn 21:22...If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

That’s not apologetics.

 

[shepherdsword]

That’s not apologetics.

Correct...that's EVANGELISM

Here is the problem. Some think that a true convert to Christ can be accomplished by winning an intellectual argument. What I have found...is that no matter what answers you provide an unbeliever will twist them to his own paradigm and reject them. You don't obtain life by eating from the tree of knowledge. That only brings death.

A convert is made aby the drawing of the Father, the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the gospel of Jesus Christ. A desperate hungry soul will grab any hope for life and one full of his own life will distain anything presented. Here's a good passage for you. A position David took:

Ps 131:1 Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

 

[Matthias]

Correct...that's EVANGELISM

That brings us back to post #87. You would forgo apologetics (and focus instead on evangelism). I think there’s a time and place for that course of action.

 

[shepherdsword]

That brings us back to post #87. You would forgo apologetics (and focus instead on evangelism). I think there’s a time and place for that course of action.

If evangelism is not the goal then apologetics is worthless. What good does it do to have all knowledge and still got to hell?

 

[Matthias]

If evangelism is not the goal then apologetics is worthless.

Apologetics is defending the faith against objections to the faith.

What good does it do to have all knowledge and still got to hell?

Porphyry was given the knowledge, objected to it, rejected it when it was defended, and died in that state of unbelief.

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

I only watched 8 minutes of this non-sense and the whole argument was based on "I feel" or "I think" which tells me already this is a fool not worth listening to. God spoke through prophets and through Christ Jesus and when God says eternal He means eternal.
We are not God and do not think like God so who cares what "you" think or feel when it comes to how God does things.

Pray for Kirk Cameron because if he can change his mind on hell will he change his mind on every thing else?

 

[Matthias]

For those interested in learning more about Conditional Immortality, I bring to your attention and recommend The Conditional Immortality Association of New Zealand Inc.

Home - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality

Exploring Conditional Immortality Articles exploring issues of the afterlife from a Christian Evangelical Perspective including human nature, the soul, life after death, final punishment, the resurrection and eternity Latest from the blog Key Articles Conditional Immortality Start here: What is...

www.afterlife.co.nz

 

[Matthias]

 

[Brakelite]

I suspect that Jesus MAY have been telling us explicitly in the Sheep and Goat Judgment prophecy (Matthew 25) how the Son of Man will judge the ethnon, those who are not part of God's people, those who might never have even heard of him: On the basis of how they treated "the least of these my brothers and sisters", whoever that might be.

Yes, I realize that this violates the sola fide principle taught in Romans 3:28 and Ephesians 2:8-9. Yet, it is firmly within the realm of Sola Christus, and (I could claim) within the realm of sola gratia.

How strange it is to believe that Christ said what He meant and meant what He said, and yet be considered a heretic. We can talk about it.

Always love your thoughtful contributions bro. Yep, not many are willing to acknowledge that we (the goats and sheep)are judged by our works, yet are they not the fruit of sola fide? And I'm not talking, and neither do I think Jesus, about religious works, such as pilgrimages and rituals and commandment keeping and long repetitive prayers but about works that are rooted in character. A character moulded after the character of Christ through a loving relationship with Him (with regards the sheep) and a willingness to obey Him in all things, the fruit bring similar, even greater works, than Him. Works of self sacrificial love and works of empathy and compassion and works of passion and desire in regard for the needs of others, first in the home then in the community, and yearning for righteousness and peace and sighing and crying for the evils done in the church and in the land.
For those ignorant of Christ and His work of redemption, is Romans 2:15 in action. The work of the law of love written in their hearts. Whether they are aware of having a relationship with Christ is moot, as they listen to conscience, they don't harden their hearts, and consciously or not, allow the holy Spirit to work in them to will and to do His good pleasure. One day, whether before death or after the resurrection, they meet Jesus, either way they shall be saved by the blood of the Lamb which sacrificed Himself for them.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

“The eternal destiny of a very large number of people throughout history who have not had access to the Gospel, and who enter eternity not knowing Jesus Christ, is a pressing problem for theology. It pits access against urgency. If we say there is equal access to salvation for all, including the unevangelized, we will be charged with eliminating the urgency of mission. But if we preserve the urgency, people will protest that this means millions will go to hell without any chance to avoid it. No decision is free from serious objection. Supporting access, stalwarts will claim that the motivation for missions has been undermined and will oppose thinking in this direction. Supporting urgency, sensitive souls will worry about the fairness issue.”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, p. 150)

I had a brief communique with Clark Pinnock back in 2009. I sent him my book to read, " Hell ... If I Know"; and he commented on it. I wanted some input from someone (of the very few modern scholars) who did not believe in eternal hell. I already knew what he thought, especially since I had read a book he co-wrote, " Four Views On Hell".

Anyways, Romans 1:18-25 answers the question for the final judgment of every soul:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

We are saved by grace through faith ...
So for those who knew God and lived by faith, Christ's sacrifice was imputed to them ... or was it? I was taught that the Old Testament saints were saved by faith because they had faith in the coming Messiah. But how about before the chosen nation came, the Abrahamic Covenant andthe Law came? Adam and Eve, Abel, Enoch, and many of their offspring til Noah believed in God and lived by faith. We'll see them in heaven. Descendants of Ham, Shem and Japheth believed in God before the chosen nation developed or the Law was given. What about all their descendants? They brought up their chuldren with the belief in God, but as time passed beliefs about God got distorted along the way. It was only a couple hundred years after the Flood when God confused the language in Babylon dispersed many. Were all the people before the Law condemned souls, used for a purpose, a temporal darkness to discard until the Light came? It is hard to believe that all succumbed to Romans 1:18-25. ???

 

[Brakelite]

I had a brief communique with Clark Pinnock back in 2009. I sent him my book to read, " Hell ... If I Know"; and he commented on it. I wanted some input from someone (of the very few modern scholars) who did not believe in eternal hell. I already knew what he thought, especially since I had read a book he co-wrote, " Four Views On Hell".

Anyways, Romans 1:18-25 answers the question for the final judgment of every soul:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

We are saved by grace through faith ...
So for those who knew God and lived by faith, Christ's sacrifice was imputed to them ... or was it? I was taught that the Old Testament saints were saved by faith because they had faith in the coming Messiah. But how about before the chosen nation came, the Abrahamic Covenant andthe Law came? Adam and Eve, Abel, Enoch, and many of their offspring til Noah believed in God and lived by faith. We'll see them in heaven. Descendants of Ham, Shem and Japheth believed in God before the chosen nation developed or the Law was given. What about all their descendants? They brought up their chuldren with the belief in God, but as time passed beliefs about God got distorted along the way. It was only a couple hundred years after the Flood when God confused the language in Babylon dispersed many. Were all the people before the Law condemned souls, used for a purpose, a temporal darkness to discard until the Light came? It is hard to believe that all succumbed to Romans 1:18-25. ???

Two points I would like to make.
First, we can trust God to be just and fair. And let us not underestimate His power to retain truth in the midst of idolatry and apostasy. There has always been a remnant.
Point two. Whosoever in the very distant past died in sin without repentance, we can be certain that they are dead. They are not alive today in a burning hell waiting to be judged. What kind of justice is that which consigns sinners to an eternal oblivion before they are judged? And what kind of justice is that which consigns mortal sinners to a punishment that after a billion years they are no closer to a hope of it ending than when they started? It means at the most base level, God's justice is never satisfied.

 

[RLT63]

What is the hope (Is there any hope?) for those who - like the hypothetical little old lady in Fiji exercise - lived and died without knowing anything at all about God, or Jesus, or the Bible?

Will they simply be lost, thrown in the lake of fire, because they were born in a place and time of ignorance? And that through no fault of their own.

Porphyry rejected Christianity on this question.

Only God knows. All we can do is speculate