I am asking premill guys to tell me when they think these events happen in time, also what is happening to the heavenly scene being described.
I will give a full response in a few hours after work, break is almost over.
Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.
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I will give a full response in a few hours after work, break is almost over.
My answers will be centered around what I think you are getting at, as you are asking very broad questions.
What is taught in Mt.24?
Signs of the end of the age and Jesus' return, including birth pangs, and things that come after.
What is taught in Luke 21?
Signs of the end of the age and Jesus' return, including birth pangs, and things that come before.
What about Rev.20?
What happens after this age, and the age to come.
Has the kingdom started or is it yet future?
Which kingdom?
Does Jesus have to be on the physical earth, on a physical throne?
Have to be? Does God "have to" do anything? But what did Jesus say?
Is there a rebuilt temple?
Or do you mean, will there be? Who is the man of sin?
Is Jerusalem the Holy City?
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Lift up your voice and SING! Hosanna in the highest! Hosanna to your King!
What is Dan.9:24-27 about?
God's plan for Israel.
When is the rapture?
Pre-trib.
What happened in 70A.D.?
When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that it's destruction is near.
What has been fulfilled?
Lots?
What is left to fulfill?
The rest of the birth pangs, then the end of the age / 70th week of Daniel, then Jesus returns, gathers Israel, takes His throne, judges the nations, and the promised Kingdom begins, for 1000 years, then Man is judged, and a new creation begins.
Much love!
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Answers in order
The judgement on Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple age
Same answer as above
The current symbolic thousand years and the White throne judgement
The kingdom is now
No Jesus doesn’t have to be physically on the earth to reign
No rebuilt temple
Jerusalem was the holy city
Daniel 9:24-27 was about the time of Maccabees and Antiochus Epehanies
The rapture is moments before the second coming
The old covenant age ended in 70AD
Most of revelation has been fulfilled
I believe that we are in the time of satans release so the second coming at the time of the 7th trumpet still has to occur and then the judgement day and the dwellings in the new Jerusalem
"marks,
[I've studied the different views, and to me, like with most things, it comes to how willing one may be to let go of the plain meaning of a passage in favor of an allegorical or metaphorical or symbolic interpretation, where there is no invitation for such.]
[Though I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding of changes in how God interacts with man.]
You posted this earlier I have the idea that having been taught similar ideas i think progress can be made if we slow it down and re examine some of these very things. In the other recent threads what happens is a person claims xyz is right and you are wrong, but not enough interaction takes place. You did a good job giving a general premill kind of outline
What i am looking for now is a more specific interpretation of the phrases used in post 6...I will list them
Using your posted [the plain meaning of a passage] and [I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding]
Mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Rev6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
How do you understand these passages, and why?
Is it the end of time?
Why do you think it is?
Are these descriptions literal?
[I've studied the different views, and to me, like with most things, it comes to how willing one may be to let go of the plain meaning of a passage in favor of an allegorical or metaphorical or symbolic interpretation, where there is no invitation for such.]
[Though I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding of changes in how God interacts with man.]
You posted this earlier I have the idea that having been taught similar ideas i think progress can be made if we slow it down and re examine some of these very things. In the other recent threads what happens is a person claims xyz is right and you are wrong, but not enough interaction takes place. You did a good job giving a general premill kind of outline
What i am looking for now is a more specific interpretation of the phrases used in post 6...I will list them
Using your posted [the plain meaning of a passage] and [I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding]
Mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Rev6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
How do you understand these passages, and why?
Is it the end of time?
Why do you think it is?
Are these descriptions literal?
We agree on most of these things one or two differences
I would like to walk through and offer food for thought to those who are interested in seeing some of the more historic views
The Jews aren’t waiting for a messiah who is god they don’t put the two together that’s why they rejected Jesus. He wasn’t sentenced to death form claiming to be the messiah He was put to death for claiming to be god
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Truth7t7,
Thanks for the invite!
Great this should be profitable
My Belief "Brief", feel free to question or challenge, Jesus Is The Lord
Yes He is
1. Jesus Christ and his Kingdom is established on earth, Jesus Christ currently sits on the throne of David, at the right hand of the father
Agree
2. Daniel's 70 weeks are future, and will start at a future command to build Jerusalem to their awaited upon Messiah, they denied Jesus Christ
It is past
3. Daniel 9:24-27 explains the future (Antichrist) or (Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) all the same guy, who will be a "Future" literal human man of Jewish/Hebrew decent, he will be revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be Messiah God, at this time the 3.5 year tribulation starts
disagree
4. When this "Future" Antichrist is revealed, he will cause Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination of Desolation, which causes the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21
disagree
5. At this point the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 takes place, who will be literal prophets returned, who will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world for 1,260 days as seen in Rev 16:1-11
past
6. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after this 3.5 year tribulation will see the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth, as the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, is revealed, judgement complete, wicked in the Lake of Fire, righteous saved in the Kingdom, eternity begins
past
Glad we have some agreement already. We will interact on the other areas soon.
Thanks for the invite!
Great this should be profitable
My Belief "Brief", feel free to question or challenge, Jesus Is The Lord
Yes He is
1. Jesus Christ and his Kingdom is established on earth, Jesus Christ currently sits on the throne of David, at the right hand of the father
Agree
2. Daniel's 70 weeks are future, and will start at a future command to build Jerusalem to their awaited upon Messiah, they denied Jesus Christ
It is past
3. Daniel 9:24-27 explains the future (Antichrist) or (Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) all the same guy, who will be a "Future" literal human man of Jewish/Hebrew decent, he will be revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be Messiah God, at this time the 3.5 year tribulation starts
disagree
4. When this "Future" Antichrist is revealed, he will cause Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination of Desolation, which causes the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21
disagree
5. At this point the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 takes place, who will be literal prophets returned, who will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world for 1,260 days as seen in Rev 16:1-11
past
6. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after this 3.5 year tribulation will see the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth, as the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, is revealed, judgement complete, wicked in the Lake of Fire, righteous saved in the Kingdom, eternity begins
past
Glad we have some agreement already. We will interact on the other areas soon.
A full preterist is a sincere person who did not know when to put the brakes on.
They claim everything has already happened, even the rapture.
Partial preterists believe many of the events have already taken place or in the process of being completed.
For the most part, rev19-22 is still future.
Dan9:24-27 has been fulfilled, Mt 24, fulfilled lk21 fulfilled.
As we will seek to demonstrate, by letting the bible interpret itself for us, we are drawn to these conclusions.
Truth7t7
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Enjoy the conversation
Your claim is in error, you "Disregard" the scripture before your eyes.
The figure seen in Daniel 9:24-27 is "Future" as described below, no need to jump off into other scripture reference, were dealing with Daniel 9:24-27
Daniel 9:24-27 represents a "Future" human man, that will cause "Abomination & Desolation" up to the very end "Consummation"
Jesus Christ dosent cause abomination or desolation, your claim is in error
Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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Truth7t7
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Daniel 7:8-11 below is in perfect agreement with Daniel 9:24-27 in the above post
Daniel's (Little Horn/The Beast) will be present on earth until the (Consummation) or literal end, as you clearly see below that this evil figure is present for the (Second Coming) and final judgement, as his literal human body is given to the flame
Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
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Truth7t7
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Your Claim Is In Error, Antiochus Epiphanies 168BC "Can't" Fulfill The Scripture Below Impossible, This Is A "Future" Event Unfulfilled, The Scripture Before Your Eyes Is Clear And Easy To Understand
Daniel 9:24-27 represents a "Future" human man, that will cause "Abomination & Desolation" up to the very end "Consummation"
Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 7:8-11 below is in perfect agreement with Daniel 9:24-27 in the above post
Daniel's (Little Horn/The Beast) will be present on earth until the (Consummation) or literal end, as you clearly see below that this evil figure is present for the (Second Coming) and final judgement, as his literal human body is given to the flame
Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Truth7t7
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Your claim is in error, as you disregard the very clear scripture below
Daniel 9:24-27 represents a "Future" human man, that will cause "Abomination & Desolation" up to the very end "Consummation"
Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation
1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 7:8-11 below is in perfect agreement with Daniel 9:24-27 in the above post
Daniel's (Little Horn/The Beast) will be present on earth until the (Consummation) or literal end, as you clearly see below that this evil figure is present for the (Second Coming) and final judgement, as his literal human body is given to the flame
Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Truth7t7
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Your claim is in error again, Luke 21:25-28 below is "Future" unfulfilled
The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, a "Future" event unfulfilled just as Luke 21:25-28 "Clearly" teaches below
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
That "we" would not include me. I think you and I have very very different understandings of how we should read a Bible.
Much love!
Truth7t7
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Your claim is in error again, Matthew 24 represents "Future" events unfulfilled, as Luke 21 posted above also validates the same
Matthew chapter 24 answers the question as seen in Matthew 24:3, signs of the Second Coming and End of this world,future events unfulfilled
Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
As clearly seen below Matthew 24:15 Daniels Abomination causes the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:21, And "Immediately After This Tribulation" the (Second Coming) takes place
As is clearly shown, Daniels abomination, the Great Tribulation, And Second Coming are "Future" events unfulfilled,all tied together by the (Time Stamp) declaring this as "Future" events unfulfilled
Matthew 24:15-21 & 29-31KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Truth7t7
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The Bible Has Interpreted Itself As Clearly Shown In My Responses Above, Will You Disregard The Very Simple Truth Presented?
Daniel's Abomination Of Desolation, The Great Tribulation, And Second Coming Of Jesus Christ Are "Future" Events Unfulfilled
Truth7t7
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Your claim is "False" Judaism presently awaits upon a (Moshiach/Messiah) to return, and yes this will be the Antichrist that they receive
Chabad.org below is a major voice for present day Judaism and their beliefs and teachings
The Future Jewish Moshiach, Will Be The Antichrist As Seen In Gods Word, As Judaism Is Presently Preparing The Way For His Acceptance
Chabad.org
What does the word Moshiach mean?
Moshiach is the Hebrew word for “messiah.” The word messiah in English means a savior or a “hoped-for deliverer.” The word moshiach in Hebrew actually means “anointed.” In Biblical Hebrew, the title moshiach was bestowed on somebody who had attained a position of nobility and greatness. For example, the high priest is referred to as the kohen ha-moshiach.
In Talmudic literature the title Moshiach, or Melech HaMoshiach (the King Messiah), is reserved for the Jewish leader who will redeem Israel in the End of Days.
What is the belief in Moshiach?
One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that one day there will arise a dynamic Jewish leader, a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the Land of Israel.
All the nations of the world will recognize Moshiach to be a world leader, and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine, and, in general, a high standard of living.
All mankind will worship one G‑d, and live a more spiritual and moral way of life. The Jewish nation will be preoccupied with learning Torah and fathoming its secrets.
The coming of Moshiach will complete G‑d’s purpose in creation: for man to make an abode for G‑d in the lower worlds—that is, to reveal the inherent spirituality in the material world.
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Did you read what I wrote your post just confirmed that I was right?
They are waiting for a Messiah but they don't realize that He was actually God too. They don't believe in the trinity this is why Jesus said the words below in Matthew 22
Whose Son Is the Messiah?
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Truth7t7
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I fully agree with your post, it appears I mis-understood your intent
Yes Jesus Christ was hated by the Jews for claiming to be God I agree, however in John 18:28-40 below it clearly states the charge was the claim of Jesus proclaiming to be (King/Messiah) of the Jews as verses 33 & 37 clearly shows, Jesus didnt deny the accusation but reinforced it, in verse 39 Pilate recognized Jesus as this King/Messia in his declaration to the Jews
Conclusion: Jesus was put to death, for claims of being King/Messiah of the Jews
John 8:58-59KJV
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 18:28-40KJV
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.
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If what you have presented in post 35 all of it was fulfilled by 78D We will offer proof of it in a little while
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