Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.

[Iconoclast]

Many people get excited dealing with Eschatology;
es•cha•tol•o•gy ĕs″kə-tŏl′ə-jē
►

• n.
  The branch of theology that is concerned with the end of the world or of humankind.
• n.
  A belief or a doctrine concerning the ultimate or final things, such as death, the destiny of humanity, the Second Coming, or the Last Judgment.
• n.
  In theology, the doctrine of the last or of final things; that branch of theology which treats of the end of the world and man's condition or state after death.

Historically there are 4 main views that have surfaced.
If you have no idea what the 4 views are, you should not really comment blindly on any position.
Everyone online believes they are a prophecy expert and look to explain all of it to you.
Sometimes there is much study they have done and try and present what they believe they have discovered.
Many times however, they have not done their homework however.

What is the problem?
Each of the four views attempts to provide an overview of Redemptive History, and How God is going to bring it into the eternal state.

Thankfully, each view sets forth that we win by the time the Last Day comes to pass. We win and Overcome by the Blood of the Lamb.

We will examine, Lord willing the four views, but in this thread we will focus primarily on one of the least held positions, that is Postmillenialism

 

[Iconoclast]

What is a partial preterist?

Preterism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Preterism, a Christian eschatological view, interprets some (partial preterism)

or all (full preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened from the 7th century BC until the first century AD, while seeing the prophecies of the Book of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Adherents of preterism are known as preterists. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism)

or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet discourse had come to pass by AD 70.

I believe full preterists and badly mistaken, some to the point of heresy.

In this thread a case will be made for what is known as PARTIAL Preterism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Postmillenialism;
In Christian eschatology (end-times theology), postmillennialism, or postmillenarianism, is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper.[1] The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism (see Summary of Christian eschatological differences).

Postmillennialism holds that Jesus Christ establishes his kingdom on earth through his preaching and redemptive work in the first century and that he equips his church with the gospel, empowers her by the Spirit, and charges her with the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) to disciple all nations.

Postmillennialism expects that eventually the vast majority of people living will be saved. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith, righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the affairs of men and of nations. After an extensive era of such conditions Jesus Christ will return visibly, bodily, and gloriously, to end history with the general resurrection and the final judgment after which the eternal order follows.

Postmillennialism was a dominant theological belief among American Protestants who promoted reform movements in the 1850's abolitionism[2] and the Social Gospel.[3] Postmillennialism has become one of the key tenets of a movement known as Christian Reconstructionism. It has been criticized by 20th century religious conservatives as an attempt to immanentize the eschaton.

 

[Iconoclast]

In many places some of the other systems have been taught, excluding or making a poor caricature of the other views held.
I would like to encourage those who study to examine what is offered.
I have looked at each view. I was originally taught that if you did not believe in a premillenial dispensational system , you were being taught error.
I learned this system first, held on to it for several years, until i discovered another way that others have viewed these things.
it is difficult to re-study and make corrections when one system is at first ingrained into you understanding.

 

[Iconoclast]

Simply put the POSTMILLENIAL teaching believes in a Victorious Gospel, a Victorious Lord, a Victorious Gospel.

The premillenial system I was first taught says; we lose down here, but then we win in the future.

The amillenial system many times believes we also lose down here.

I bristled at this and used to say I was an optimistic Amillenial person, and that even if unbelievers control the world system that the gospel always prospers.

Historic premill was a safe general view...things move along as they are , an anti christ appears great tribulation return of Christ, the rapture at that time,rapture

Postmill says the Kingdom starts small like a mustard seed but grows worldwide being Victorious with the knowledge of God going from sea to sea.

 

[Iconoclast]

If we all look at the same verses , how do we differ?
Some try and explain away the other views by saying that Postmillenial , and Amillenial persons"spiritualize" the scriptures rather than taking them literal. This is a falsehood that will be exposed here and will begin to demonstrate another understanding of end times that is perhaps more biblical.
How so?

Here are two sections of scripture.
Are they literal events?
What is being described?
When do these events take place?
is it at the end of the world? is it during this age?

Mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How do you understand these passages, and why?
Is it the end of time?
Why do you think it is?
Are these descriptions literal?

 

[Iconoclast]

We will look closely at each of the passages involved in end time discussions.

What is taught in Mt.24?

What is taught in Luke 21?

What about Rev.20?

Has the kingdom started or is it yet future?

Does Jesus have to be on the physical earth, on a physical throne?

Is there a rebuilt temple?

Is Jerusalem the Holy City?

What is Dan.9:24-27 about?

When is the rapture?

What happened in 70A.D.?

What has been fulfilled?

What is left to fulfill?

 

[Iconoclast]

Several posters were eager to engage this topic, and offer correction.
Your questions are welcomed here.
Try and offer your best scriptural positions and comments. I ask that you engage what is posted here directly. Quote it, agree, or disagree, give a biblical reason why. Thanks in advance.

 

[Truth7t7]

Several posters were eager to engage this topic, and offer correction.
Your questions are welcomed here.
Try and offer your best scriptural positions and comments. I ask that you engage what is posted here directly. Quote it, agree, or disagree, give a biblical reason why. Thanks in advance.

Thanks for the invite!

My Belief "Brief", feel free to question or challenge, Jesus Is The Lord

1. Jesus Christ and his Kingdom is established on earth, Jesus Christ currently sits on the throne of David, at the right hand of the father

2. Daniel's 70 weeks are future, and will start at a future command to build Jerusalem to their awaited upon Messiah, they denied Jesus Christ

3. Daniel 9:24-27 explains the future (Antichrist) or (Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) all the same guy, who will be a "Future" literal human man of Jewish/Hebrew decent, he will be revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be Messiah God, at this time the 3.5 year tribulation starts

4. When this "Future" Antichrist is revealed, he will cause Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination of Desolation, which causes the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21

5. At this point the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 takes place, who will be literal prophets returned, who will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world for 1,260 days as seen in Rev 16:1-11

6. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after this 3.5 year tribulation will see the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth, as the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, is revealed, judgement complete, wicked in the Lake of Fire, righteous saved in the Kingdom, eternity begins

 

[Marty fox]

If we all look at the same verses , how do we differ?
Some try and explain away the other views by saying that Postmillenial , and Amillenial persons"spiritualize" the scriptures rather than taking them literal. This is a falsehood that will be exposed here and will begin to demonstrate another understanding of end times that is perhaps more biblical.
How so?

Here are two sections of scripture.
Are they literal events?
What is being described?
When do these events take place?
is it at the end of the world? is it during this age?

Mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How do you understand these passages, and why?
Is it the end of time?
Why do you think it is?
Are these descriptions literal?

I believe these verses are symbolic for the judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD at the end of the temple and sacrificial age. The same symbolic descriptions for judgement are used in the Old Testament

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for the invite!

My Belief "Brief", feel free to question or challenge, Jesus Is The Lord

1. Jesus Christ and his Kingdom is established on earth, Jesus Christ currently sits on the throne of David, at the right hand of the father

2. Daniel's 70 weeks are future, and will start at a future command to build Jerusalem to their awaited upon Messiah, they denied Jesus Christ

3. Daniel 9:24-27 explains the future (Antichrist) or (Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) all the same guy, who will be a "Future" literal human man of Jewish/Hebrew decent, he will be revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be Messiah God, at this time the 3.5 year tribulation starts

4. When this "Future" Antichrist is revealed, he will cause Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination of Desolation, which causes the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21

5. At this point the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 takes place, who will be literal prophets returned, who will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world for 1,260 days as seen in Rev 16:1-11

6. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after this 3.5 year tribulation will see the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth, as the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, is revealed, judgement complete, wicked in the Lake of Fire, righteous saved in the Kingdom, eternity begins

7t7,
thanks for responding, glad we agree on point 1.
Dan9 was fulfilled by ,. Jesus, not the antichrist.Jesus was cut off after3.5 years and the cross was the once for all time sacrifice for sins.He stopped all sacrifices from the OT.
mt24 fulfilled by 70 ad.Most say it is near the end of time, because of the language of the Sun, moon, stars.

At work now, will offer biblical proof later today.

 

[Iconoclast]

7t7
in the meantime could you offer a response to post 6

 

[Truth7t7]

7t7,
Dan9 was fulfilled by ,. Jesus, not the antichrist.Jesus was cut off after3.5 years and the cross was the once for all time sacrifice for sins.He stopped all sacrifices from the OT.

Daniel 9:24-27 represents a "Future" human man, that will cause "Abomination & Desolation" up to the very end "Consummation"

Jesus Christ dosent cause abomination or desolation, your claim is in error

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Iconoclast]

Daniel 9:24-27 represents a "Future" human man, that will cause "Abomination & Desolation" up to the very end "Consummation"

Jesus Christ dosent cause abomination or desolation, your claim is in error

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Take a look at verse24
1 to finish the transgression
2 to make an end of sins
3 to make reconciliation for iniquity
4 to bring in everlasting righteousness
5 to seal up the vision and prophecy
6 to anoint the Most Holy?

Does the antichrist do these things?
Bring in everlasting righteousness?
make reconciliation for iniquity?
anoint the Most Holy?
make an end of sins?
seal up visions and prophecy?
finish transgression?
Are you sure of what you are saying.

I am on break will offer more later.
respond to post 6....what is being described?

 

[marks]

In many places some of the other systems have been taught, excluding or making a poor caricature of the other views held.
I would like to encourage those who study to examine what is offered.
I have looked at each view. I was originally taught that if you did not believe in a premillenial dispensational system , you were being taught error.
I learned this system first, held on to it for several years, until i discovered another way that others have viewed these things.
it is difficult to re-study and make corrections when one system is at first ingrained into you understanding.

I've studied the different views, and to me, like with most things, it comes to how willing one may be to let go of the plain meaning of a passage in favor of an allegorical or metaphorical or symbolic interpretation, where there is no invitation for such.

I find that this will lead us into varied ideas of who is Israel, and who is the church, for instance, which will go on to require different readings to harmonize with those views.

As far as whichever is the first "system" you've learned, the only system I'd say I've learned is in hermenuetics, not a "systematic theology". Though I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding of changes in how God interacts with man.

If we approach these ideas with an open mind, and willing to apply critical reasoning to any of our ideas or conclusions, and seek only whatever is true, then we can overcome any difficulty.

Much love!

 

[Iconoclast]

m

I've studied the different views, and to me, like with most things, it comes to how willing one may be to let go of the plain meaning of a passage in favor of an allegorical or metaphorical or symbolic interpretation, where there is no invitation for such.

I find that this will lead us into varied ideas of who is Israel, and who is the church, for instance, which will go on to require different readings to harmonize with those views.

As far as whichever is the first "system" you've learned, the only system I'd say I've learned is in hermenuetics, not a "systematic theology". Though I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding of changes in how God interacts with man.

If we approach these ideas with an open mind, and willing to apply critical reasoning to any of our ideas or conclusions, and seek only whatever is true, then we can overcome any difficulty.

Much love!

Mark, I understand what you are saying.Using your method tell me your understanding of the two portions of scripture in post 6 please.
This will begin to clarify how we differ.

 

[marks]

Mark, I understand what you are saying.Using your method tell me your understanding of the two portions of scripture in post 6 please.

I'd appreciate a more specific question. I'll take a look and see what I think.

I'd also be interested in a quick summary of your position so I can track the discussion a little better.

When you say your are "partial" preterist, where do you draw a line?

Much love!

 

[marks]

"When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Is that the question we are looking at?

Much love!

 

[marks]

This will begin to clarify how we differ.

Is your question whether we should read a "blood moon" as a "dark moon"? These are the kinds of details which show how one reads. A dark moon will not give a red light.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We will look closely at each of the passages involved in end time discussions.

What is taught in Mt.24?

What is taught in Luke 21?

What about Rev.20?

Has the kingdom started or is it yet future?

Does Jesus have to be on the physical earth, on a physical throne?

Is there a rebuilt temple?

Is Jerusalem the Holy City?

What is Dan.9:24-27 about?

When is the rapture?

What happened in 70A.D.?

What has been fulfilled?

What is left to fulfill?

How do you answer each of these?

Much love!