Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.

[Iconoclast]

That "we" would not include me. I think you and I have very very different understandings of how we should read a Bible.

Much love!

Could you show what those phrases mean in revelation 6 like I've asked 3 times could you show what it means about the stars falling to the Earth and the heaven rolling up like a scroll the way you read The Bible could you tell me what that actually means

 

[Truth7t7]

If what you have presented in post 35 all of it was fulfilled by 78D We will offer proof of it in a little while

Your claim is in error, the events in Matthew 24 (Daniels Abomination) (The Great Tribulation) and (Second Coming) are future events "Unfulfilled" all tied together by the time stamp

It's impossible to have a (Great Tribulation) in 78AD, and the (Second Coming) immediately after the tribulation of (Those Days)

As the parallel teaching in Luke 21:25-28 is in perfect agreement with these events to be "Future" unfulfilled, as seen in post #33 above

 

[marks]

Could you show what those phrases mean in revelation 6 like I've asked 3 times could you show what it means about the stars falling to the Earth and the heaven rolling up like a scroll the way you read The Bible could you tell me what that actually means

Revelation 6:12-17 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Phenomenal language. ". . . became as . . ." John is here relating his perceptions of what is happening.

A great earthquake. The son is blackened, the moon becomes blood red. Stars fall like unripe figs in a storm. Again, phenomenal language, like when we say "shooting stars". The heaven departs like a scroll rolled up. What the sky looks like. A large asteroid strike could make the sky look like that. Hydrogen bomb detonations can make it look like that. I'm sure there can be other causes as well.

The earthquake either shifts the earth's position, or "merely" moves every island and mountain out of place. The people are terrified, recognizing now God as they see His hand in Judgment.

It means what it says. Why wouldn't it? We look for the other passages in the Bible to mean what they say also, do we not?

Much love!

 

[Iconoclast]

Revelation 6:12-17 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Phenomenal language. ". . . became as . . ." John is here relating his perceptions of what is happening.

A great earthquake. The son is blackened, the moon becomes blood red. Stars fall like unripe figs in a storm. Again, phenomenal language, like when we say "shooting stars". The heaven departs like a scroll rolled up. What the sky looks like. A large asteroid strike could make the sky look like that. Hydrogen bomb detonations can make it look like that. I'm sure there can be other causes as well.

The earthquake either shifts the earth's position, or "merely" moves every island and mountain out of place. The people are terrified, recognizing now God as they see His hand in Judgment.

It means what it says. Why wouldn't it? We look for the other passages in the Bible to mean what they say also, do we not?

Much love!

Thanks for responding to the revelation 6 passage now why I wanted a response on this is I think when I respond I'll be able to show a different way it's a different way of literally understanding what this is talking about so that's why I've been persistent and insistent on mostly my primelennial friends to explain how they understand this passage now when I do give a response I think you'll see why

Your claim is in error, the events in Matthew 24 (Daniels Abomination) (The Great Tribulation) and (Second Coming) are future events "Unfulfilled" all tied together by the time stamp

It's impossible to have a (Great Tribulation) in 78AD, and the (Second Coming) immediately after the tribulation of (Those Days)

As the parallel teaching in Luke 21:25-28 is in perfect agreement with these events to be "Future" unfulfilled, as seen in post #33 above

Also thank you for responding to these passages I hope to be able to give a response that I'll show you why the great tribulation has taken place and I'll just say now I'm using voice to text as I'm still working but what if it was not speaking of the 2nd coming of Jesus to the Earth

 

[marks]

I'll show you why the great tribulation has taken place

And I'll show from the plain reading of Scripture that it hasn't. Jesus returns immediately afterward, and every eye will see Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but what if it was not speaking of the 2nd coming of Jesus to the Earth

What if it's not? What if it is? What would God say if He wanted to describe the exact scenario being described?

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

For the first 300 years, all the early church fathers were solid premillennialists, except one lone person after 250 years who was the very first to deny a simple and literal interpretation of the relevant scriptures, and who also, BTW, rejected the whole book of Revelation.

Not only were they premillennialist, they in fact taught the sabbath -millennium doctrine, as did Barnabas, as one example.

The sabbath- millennium doctrine is that God took 6 days to create everything and then rested on the seventh day, as a prophetical foreshadow of their being 6 thousand years from Adam to the return of Jesus, with the thousand year millennium reign of Jesus being the seventh day.

The millennial reign as symbolic of the seventh day, was also called Gods rest for His people, and it is briefly alluded to in Hebrews chapter 4.

I already adopted premillennialism as the obvious meaning of scripture, before I heard the term or that there were actually those who ignore the plain and literal meaning of the relevant scriptures, and before I knew that the church was solidly premillennial for the first 3 centuries of its existence.

 

[Iconoclast]

What if it's not? What if it is? What would God say if He wanted to describe the exact scenario being described?

Much love!

Good questions and in a couple hours I will supply the answer

 

[marks]

Good questions and in a couple hours I will supply the answer

Because I'm thinking that He would have done exactly what He did, give prophetic narratives which give us those answers of what God's plan is.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

what if it was not speaking of the 2nd coming of Jesus to the Earth

The scripture clearly states humans on earth will see Jesus Christ in the clouds, very simple and clear

How you going to twist the facts below to suit your preterist teachings, I'm enthusiastically waiting for this one, suspense!!!!!

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Iconoclast]

marks
[That "we" would not include me. I think you and I have very very different understandings of how we should read a Bible
[Though I find that an historical/grammatical rule of interpretation yields the understanding of changes in how God interacts with man.]
yes we do,we will see.

T7t said;
[The Bible Has Interpreted Itself As Clearly Shown In My Responses Above],

I believe the bible interprets itself also,glad we agree on that

[Will You Disregard The Very Simple Truth Presented?]

I have looked at the bible also and want the truth of scripture. I understand why you have posted what you have, and now I will begin to show why I believe you have some parts wrong.

[Matthew chapter 24 answers the question as seen in Matthew 24:3, signs of the Second Coming and End of this world, future events unfulfilled]

Lets look again

I will now begin to present how others have seen these things in a different way.

 

[Iconoclast]

I at first learned one view and was told it was the only biblical view. it was not until i was confronted on some of my positions that I was forced to modify some things, and throw out other ideas.

Most premill men cringe when they hear of other positions. They first defend their method of interpretation, saying I just go with the plain reading of scripture, or a literal reading of scripture.
When you point out that sometimes God has used different forms of writing, they say as we have seen on these 3 threads that the plain or literal makes the most sense, and these other versions are spiritualizing, or allegorizing scripture.....usually someone will point to the strange ideas of Origen.

Thankfully you men are looking for...What does the Bible say? This is or should be our desire.
I am thankful you feel that way.

I asked about two passages as examples, mt 24, and rev 6.
Most all said it pointed to a future judgment, I and marty have said they were fulfilled.
Now why would we say such a thing?
We contend the bible demands it. How so?
I believe in a literal interpretation of scripture.
I want to understand what God wants us to understand.

I used two examples from many i could have chosen because they get right to the issue.

The Sun, Moon And Stars Of Matthew 24:29

The Sun, Moon And Stars Of Matthew 24:29


This Olivet Discourse Deception study is about the meaning of the Sun, Moon and Stars of Matthew 24:29.

The ‘sun, moon and stars’ are symbolic of earthly dignitaries, great political authorities and great lights in the political or religious heavens.

We know this because in Genesis 37:8-10, Joseph had a dream, ..”And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me. So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” It was symbolic of the power structure.

Here are examples which are clearly not about the literal sun, moon and stars.

Isaiah 13:10 is referring to the Babylonian leaders being removed from power by the Medo-Persians.

“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.“

Isaiah 13:17 confirms this with, “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,”

Isaiah 34:3-5 foretold the destruction of the Edomites and other nations which were enemies.

“Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”

Ezekiel 32:6-8 points to the Babylonians desolating Egypt, removing the Pharaoh (Sun) and his leaders (moon) from power.

“I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.”

Applying the symbols to Matthew 24:29, we can see that the Jewish leaders having their power structure removed, is clearly indicated.

As a result of the ‘people of the prince‘ of Daniel 9, the Roman army of Prince Titus; the temple and Jewish leadership system were desolated.

The High Priest was the Sun, the Sanhedrin Council was the Moon, and the many rabbis were the stars.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2;
And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel by showing wonders in heaven and in earth – darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood.

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” Joel 2:30-31

Commentaries from great theologians about the Sun, Moon and Stars of Matthew 24:29:

Albert Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:

Shall the sun be darkened, etc. The images here used are not to be taken literally. They are often used by the sacred writers to denote any great calamities. As the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars would be an inexpressible calamity, so any great catastrophe, any overturning of kingdoms or cities, or dethroning of kings and princes, is represented by the darkening of the sun and moon, and by some terrible convulsion in the elements.
Thus the destruction of Babylon is foretold in similar terms,
Isa 13:10;
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

and of Tyre, Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
The slaughter in Bozrah and Idumea is predicted in the same language,

Isa 34:4.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
See also Isa 50:3;

60:19-20;
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Eze 32:7;7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

Joel 3:15.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
6 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


To the description in Matthew, Luke has added, Lu 21:25 there should be “distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming upon the earth.” All these are figures of great and terrible calamity. The roaring of the waves of the sea denotes great tumult and affliction among the people, Perplexity means doubt, anxiety; not knowing what to do to escape. Men’s hearts failing them for fear, or by reason of fear. Their fears would be so great as to take away their courage and strength.

Adam Clarke (1837)
When God explains in scripture what the symbols literally mean, I do not think we have any warrant to ignore the meaning God has given to these judgments

 

[Iconoclast]

Mt 24, is describing, not the end of the world, [kosmos] but rather, the end of the age. [aion]
..that is the end of the Jewish theocracy, not the End of the world.
The Old Covenant is being replaced by the new Covenant.
Jesus said;mt24:34 Verily I say unto you,
This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

He spoke this to those in the first century.
Mk13:
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory

Jesus linked the destruction of the temple with the end of the age.

He spoke to those people face to face and gave the final OT. prophecies of the destruction of the temple and spoke of the abomination that makes desolate from dan9.
In Daniel 9 Jesus is cut off after 3.5 yrs of public ministry, in the midst of the 70th week.
I will make an extended post on this alone,as it is an important passage.
For now I am trying to frame out how millions of others have understood these scriptures, and the biblical reasons why.They offer more scripture that link together than any premill people can.
They use the whole bible and search for the consistnt meaning God has assigned to these symbols and how they literally translate.
In Acts 2:16...Peter declares by the Spirit...This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.
It did not say this is like that, but he said this is that.

 

[Iconoclast]

lk21;
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Jesus spoke this to those in the first century, saying these be the days of vengeance??
he was speaking of the Covenant curses coming upon apostate Israel as spoken of in Deut 28-33, the Song of Moses..
Not one of you premill men have suggested the link to the promise of judgment for Covenant breaking.

 

[Iconoclast]

From He Shall Have Dominion by Ken Gentry;

The First-Coming Fulfillment Argument This literalism argument is one of the most frequently employed and one of the most compelling to the layman. But it also suffers from question-begging.

“The Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ’s birth and rearing, ministry, death, and resurrection were all fulfilled literally.” J. Dwight Pentecost holds that this is “one of the strongest 38 evidences for the literal method.” He vigorously asserts: “When the Old Testament is used in the New it is used only in a literal sense.” “No prophecy which has been completely fulfilled has been fulfilled any way but literally.” Walvoord argues that “the literal fulfillment of promises 39 pertaining to the first coming is a foreshadowing of the literal fulfillment of promises pertaining to the second coming.” Elsewhere he claims: 40 “Because approximately half of the prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled in a literal way, it gives a proper intellectual basis for assuming that prophecy yet to be fulfilled will likewise have a literal fulfillment.
Problems for this argument.
The New Testament does not support this bold claim.
To say that all prophecies transpiring in the New Testament are fulfilled literally requires that one’s system already be in place. The interpretation of a passage is grounded in the expositor’s original presupposition. Literalism definitionally writes off all non-literal fulfillments.

For instance, it ignores Old Testament kingdom prophecies fulfilled in the ministry of Christ, though not as a literalistic, political conception (Mt 34. Pentecost, Thy Kingdom Come, 80. 35. For example, Psa. 69:25 in Ac 1:20. Feinberg, Millennialism, 51. 36. For example, the church’s participation in the new covenant. Walvoord, PKH, 502–503. 37. Poythress, Understanding Dispensationalists, 53–55. 38. Ryrie, “Dispensationalism,” in DPT, 94. 39. Pentecost, Things to Come, 10–11. See also: House and Ice, Dominion Theology, 321–323. 40. Walvoord, The Nations, Israel, and the Church in Prophecy, 3:61. Ch. 7: The Hermeneutic of Scripture 185 12:28; Lk 17:20–21). These prophecies are clearly fulfilled in the first 41 century, for the prophecies of the Spirit’s outpouring, which is associated with them, comes to pass (Ac 2). Part III of this book will demonstrate 42 this. Even apart from the debate regarding Christ’s kingdom, the dispensationalist argument is unfounded.

For instance, although Matthew often interprets Old Testament prophecies literally, he does not always do so.
Crenshaw and Gunn carefully demonstrate that “out of 97 OT prophecies only 34 were directly or literally fulfilled, which is only 35.05 percent.”

They show that the New Testament presents many examples 43 of non-literal fulfillment.

By way of example, Matthew employs typological fulfillment when he states: God’s calling Israel up out of Egypt (Hos 11:1) was fulfilled when the young Jesus returned from his flight to Egypt (Mt 2:15).

He also presents us with analogical fulfillment, as when Bethlehem’s weeping for its children (Mt 2:18) fulfills Rachel’s weeping for her children (Jer 31:15).

In the New Testament antitypes fulfill Old Testament types. For instance, historical Jerusalem is a type of its antitype, the heavenly city. Paul sets the new covenant over against the old covenant, and the heavenly Jerusalem over against the earthly Jerusalem in teaching that Christianity represents the heavenly Jerusalem: “For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children; but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Gal 4:25–26; cf. 22–31).

The writer of Hebrews does the same, when he states that new covenant Christian converts (Heb 12:24) from old covenant Judaism are now come “to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22–23).

John sees the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to earth in the establishment of Christianity (Rev 21:1--2). This 44 41. This whole matter will receive careful exposition in ch. 10 “Realization of Prophecy.” 42. See Isa 32:14–17; Eze 36:25–27; Joel 2:28ff. Cf. Jn 7:39; 16:12ff.

43. Crenshaw and Gunn, Dispensationalism Today, Yesterday, and Tomorrow, 22. See their helpful chart on pages 14–22. For an excellent analysis of the matter, see: Holwerda, Jesus and Israel. 44. For a brief statement regarding the New Jerusalem/church connection, see ch. 16: “Eschatological Apocalypse.” It seems clear from the time statements in 186 He Shall Have Dominion was the heavenly city that Abraham ultimately sought beyond the temporal (and typical) Promised Land (Heb 11:10, 16)

 

[Truth7t7]

lk21;
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Jesus spoke this to those in the first century, saying these be the days of vengeance??
he was speaking of the Covenant curses coming upon apostate Israel as spoken of in Deut 28-33, the Song of Moses..
Not one of you premill men have suggested the link to the promise of judgment for Covenant breaking.

You forgot answering the most important part "Why"?

The scripture clearly states humans on earth will see Jesus Christ in the clouds, very simple and clear

How you going to twist the facts below to suit your preterist teachings, I'm enthusiastically waiting for this one, nail biter, cliff hanging suspense!!!!!

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Iconoclast]

You forgot answering the most important part "Why"?

The scripture clearly states humans on earth will see Jesus Christ in the clouds, very simple and clear

How you going to twist the facts below to suit your preterist teachings, I'm enthusiastically waiting for this one, suspense!!!!!

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thanks for asking, I was hoping you would. Lets see if the bible says anything about that;

The question really is, is God coming, or coming in the clouds, always a literal physical coming, or does the bible itself speak of God coming in "judgment', not a literal physical return as the second Coming will be;
Here are some biblical examples
Deut33;2
And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
isa31:4 For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
isa64:3
64 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
isa66:15
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
psalm18:9
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

psalm144;
5 Bow thy heavens, O Lord, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.

Micah;
3 For, behold, the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.


There are more examples, but you get the idea...they are bible verses, Did God literally come down, or come down in judgment?

 

[Heart2Soul]

If we all look at the same verses , how do we differ?
Some try and explain away the other views by saying that Postmillenial , and Amillenial persons"spiritualize" the scriptures rather than taking them literal. This is a falsehood that will be exposed here and will begin to demonstrate another understanding of end times that is perhaps more biblical.
How so?

Here are two sections of scripture.
Are they literal events?
What is being described?
When do these events take place?
is it at the end of the world? is it during this age?
Mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How do you understand these passages, and why?
Is it the end of time?
Why do you think it is?
Are these descriptions literal?

I am just a humble student, a seeker of truth and the hidden wisdom of God...
So forgive my ignorance but I do have understanding of some things....
I take the description in matthew literal.....there are 3 heavens....I believe it is referring to the 2nd heaven where Satan and his demons dwell...the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shall be shaken refers to Satan and his demons being cast down once and for all from their dwelling place....the 2nd heaven... and weren't angels referred to as stars or heaven?
So the fallen angels fall.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Truth7t7,
Hello friend, do not want you to wait to long;
[You forgot answering the most important part "Why"?

The scripture clearly states humans on earth will see Jesus Christ in the clouds, very simple and clear

How you going to twist the facts below to suit your preterist teachings, I'm enthusiastically waiting for this one, nail biter, cliff hanging suspense!!!!!]

You are speaking of the sign of the Son of man ....IN HEAVEN
look again as Jesus links this sign to His coming in Judgment, on apostate Jerusalem,
not the second coming

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

What days??? the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
Jesus did not twist anything, nor do I, I just believe Jesus here.

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

The destruction of the temple is spoken of as the sign he is IN HEAVEN


and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now 7t7, you might not like this view, but it is not twisted, it is more biblical than what you or the others have offered.