Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.

[Iconoclast]

marks,
[So, how were prophecies fulfilled that have been fulfilled? Literally. What should we expect for those that remain?]

For instance, although Matthew often interprets Old Testament prophecies literally, he does not always do so.
Crenshaw and Gunn carefully demonstrate that “out of 97 OT prophecies only 34 were directly or literally fulfilled, which is only 35.05 percent.”

 

[Zao is life]

The Day of the Lord The “the day of the Lord” appears frequently in Scripture, particularly in the Old Testament prophets (Isa 13:6, 9; Eze 13:5; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11; Am 5:18, 20; Ob 15; Zep 1:7; Mal 4:5).

It also appears in the New Testament (Ac 2:20; 1Co 5:5; 1Th 5:2; 2Th 2:2; 2Pe 3:10; Rev 6:17; 16:14).

The concept can appear even apart from the full phrase, “day of the Lord.”
Scripture calls it ;
a “day of punishment” (Isa 10:3),
a “day of doom” (Jer 51:2),
a “day of trouble” (Eze 7:7),
a “day of darkness” (Joel 2:2),
a “day of the Lord’s anger” (Zep 2:2).
Or prophets may simply call it “that day” (Isa2:11, 17; 7:18; 11:10; Jer 4:9; 30:7; Eze 24:26; 29:21; Hos 1:5; 2:16, 18; Joel 3:18; Am 2:16; 8:3; Mic 2:4).

The “day of the Lord” may be “sometimes used by the prophets to refer to any specific period of time in which the God of Israel intervenes in human affairs to save and judge” and “invariably the Day of the Lord is associated with acts of violent judgment” (DBI 196, 197). This concept always appears in the singular form, as an individual day.

Nevertheless, “the ‘day of the Lord’ is not a one-time occurrence” for “there have been days of the Lord in the past” (EDBT 147).
We see them coming against Babylon (Isa 13:6, 9),
Egypt (Eze 30:3–4),
Jerusalem (Joel 1:14–15),
Edom (Oba 8, 15), and others.
He Shall Have Dominion , Gentry pg 381,382

The symbolism of disruptions of Sun, moon, and stars, accompany these judgments

I think there's something that you're missing regarding God's judgement.

Every time the wrath of God has been poured out upon a people or nation, it has been a judgement. But the whole world has only been finally judged (and found guilty) twice:

120 years before the flood, God judged the world, and the world was found guilty:

Genesis 6:5-7
"And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them."

Genesis 6:13-14a
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of Cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..."

Genesis 6:3
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

The world, in the days of Noah, was not judged on the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier. God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been decreed, but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

The ark is a picture of Christ:

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12:9-11
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven,

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

John 3:17
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Compare this with the following:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."

It's the carrying out of the decreed sentence that is still coming: John saw death and hades delivering up all the dead in them at the end of time in the current heavens and earth. The books were opened and all whose names were not written in the book of Life were cast into the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), but the Great White Throne is not the judgement - it's the carrying out of the sentence.

When the world was judged, the judgement fell on Christ, and just as the floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up (and out of the destruction) while those in the ark were saved (but only those in the ark), so Christ bore the judgement of the world, was lifted up from the earth, and He is our ark, the ark of those who are IN HIM through faith in Him.

So if we believe the words of Jesus and the Revelation Jesus has given us, then we will understand that God’s judgement has already come, but the decreed sentence is yet to be carried out. What will occur at the time of the return of Christ is not "the" judgement (because the judgement of this world came when Christ died on the cross), but it will be a judgement, because whenever the wrath of God is poured out upon people or nations, it’s a judgement.

What will occur at the time all souls appear before the Great White Throne is the carrying out of the decreed sentence. Jesus is our Ark, and this is the sentence that will be carried out at the time of the Great White Throne:

John 3
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who believed in Noah's day were safely in the ark on the day that the decreed sentence was carried out.

 

[Iconoclast]

Fullness of the Gentiles,

[So let's please stay out of the book of Revelation for now and concentrate on the similarity between

Matthew 24:31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


and 1 Corinthians 15:52.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


It you can give me a plausible answer regarding the seeming similarity between the above verses, then who knows, I may even begin to consider the Partial Preterist view of the Revelation]

If the great tribulation is shown to be the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, a transition from Old Covenant to new Covenant,

1cor15:52 is the rapture on the last day as Jesus taught in John6;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now before vs 52 comes this part of 1 cor15;

Jesus is reigning now from heaven in the midst of His enemies as per psalm110;
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

on mt24:31-
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am not certain if the angels spoken of here are angels as ministering spirits,
heb1:
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

or angels as messengers, ie pastors of Churches preaching the gospel worldwide to gather in the elect , as Satan is bound a 1000yrs, to no longer deceive the nations.

53. “Angels” (aggeloi) should be understood here as “messengers,” as in Mt 11:10; Mk 1:2; Lk 7:24, 27; 9:52. Chilton, Paradise Restored, 103–10

54. For the phrase “one end of heaven to the other,” see: Dt 30:4; Neh 1:9. The proclamation of the gospel is to be worldwide, Isa 45:22; Ps 22:27; Lk 13:29; Ac 13:39

 

[Iconoclast]

I think there's something that you're missing regarding God's judgement.

Every time the wrath of God has been poured out upon a people or nation, it has been a judgement. But the whole world has only been finally judged (and found guilty) twice:

120 years before the flood, God judged the world, and the world was found guilty:

Genesis 6:5-7
"And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them."

Genesis 6:13-14a
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of Cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..."

Genesis 6:3
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

The world, in the days of Noah, was not judged on the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier. God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been decreed, but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

The ark is a picture of Christ:

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12:9-11
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven,

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

John 3:17
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Compare this with the following:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."

It's the carrying out of the decreed sentence that is still coming: John saw death and hades delivering up all the dead in them at the end of time in the current heavens and earth. The books were opened and all whose names were not written in the book of Life were cast into the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), but the Great White Throne is not the judgement - it's the carrying out of the sentence.

When the world was judged, the judgement fell on Christ, and just as the floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up (and out of the destruction) while those in the ark were saved (but only those in the ark), so Christ bore the judgement of the world, was lifted up from the earth, and He is our ark, the ark of those who are IN HIM through faith in Him.

So if we believe the words of Jesus and the Revelation Jesus has given us, then we will understand that God’s judgement has already come, but the decreed sentence is yet to be carried out. What will occur at the time of the return of Christ is not "the" judgement (because the judgement of this world came when Christ died on the cross), but it will be a judgement, because whenever the wrath of God is poured out upon people or nations, it’s a judgement.

What will occur at the time all souls appear before the Great White Throne is the carrying out of the decreed sentence. Jesus is our Ark, and this is the sentence that will be carried out at the time of the Great White Throne:

John 3
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who believed in Noah's day were safely in the ark on the day that the decreed sentence was carried out.

Yes, I believe it is settled, and that is why we are told that it is only the longsuffering of God that he does not destroy all the wicked right now. Some of the elect might not have been born yet, so God allows the wicked to still breathe His air until the last person is drawn to faith.

Rev 12 points to this;
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

So let's please stay out of the book of Revelation for now and concentrate on the similarity between

There is another Dispensational Rightly Divided view, for Consideration?:

Precious friend(s), Definite Distinctions are not being made, resulting in mass Confusion!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most
Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation. Amen. (1_Thessalonians_4:18 KJB!)

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Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (“ages” past/future)
(Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world” (Matthew_25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!)

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians_1:4; 2_Timothy_1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans_16:25; Ephesians_1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew_24:29; Revelation_19:16, 11 KJB!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies on white horses! (Revelation_19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth “With All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew_25:31; Revelation_19:11, 15)

(5a) Angels “gather the tares First, And they are taken Out of the kingdom”
to be cast into the furnace of fire! (Matthew_24:30, 13:30, 40-43!)

(5b) Angels “gather the elect”... (Matthew_24:31; Mark_13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew_25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew_25:34-46!)

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From Things That DIFFER:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)
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LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
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Precious friend(s), what think ye?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[Iconoclast]

Ken Gentry offers this about the time;
Second, in the other five instances in Matthew where the word genea appears with the near demonstrative (haute, “this”), it clearly refers to the generation then living (Mt 11:16; 12:41, 42, 45; 23:36).

In Scripture the idea of a “generation” of people involves roughly twenty-five to forty years (Nu 32:13; Ps 95:10).

Third, the phrase “this generation” appears in the very context that intimately relates to and leads into Matthew 24 (cf. 23:36–38 with 24:1–2).

In Matthew 23:36 “this generation” unquestionably speaks of Jesus’ contemporaries, as even dispensationalists admit. Here Jesus is 20 condemning his contemporary adversaries, the scribes and Pharisees (23:2, 13–16, 23–29). He says that they will “fill up the measure of the guilt” of the previous generations (23:32). They will do this by persecuting Jesus’ followers (23:34), so that “upon you [scribes and Pharisees] may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed” (23:35). He concludes: “Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation” (23:36). This employs the same crucial terms as Matthew 24:34

The Abomination of Desolation. Jesus warns: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)” (Mt 24:15). This refers to the AD 70 event, as we may discern from several angles:
(1) The temple is then standing in the “holy city” (Jerusalem, Mt 4:5; 27:53).

(2) In the context the disciples point to that particular temple (Mt 24:1), giving rise to this very discourse (Mt 23:38–24:3).

3) Christ points to that temple, when he speaks of the temple’s destruction (Mt 24:2).

(4) The specific time frame demands an AD 70 reference for the “abomination” (Mt 24:34). The “abomination of desolation” will be so awful that it will result in desperate flight from the area (Mt 24:16–20). It will occur “in the holy place.”

Surely this involves the temple, but it may be broader, speaking of both the city and the temple. Two problems present themselves to the temple-only view: (1) Luke 21:20 interprets the phrase as the surrounding of the city, which does indeed happen (Josephus, J.W. 5:12:1). Jerusalem itself is a holy place, being the capital of the “holy land” (Zec 2:12).36 (2) The original Old Testament context mentions both “the city and the sanctuary” (Da 9:26).

 

[Iconoclast]

Ken Gentry; He shall have Dominion,pg428,429

Astronomical signs. Matthew 24:29–30 reads: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Futurists see these verses as “of particular importance” in demonstrating the error of preterism, showing that “this approach to 24:29–31
48 cannot be sustained.”
49 The darkening of the sun and moon is common apocalyptic language for signifying the collapse of nations, such as in Old Testament judgments on Babylon (Isa 13:1, 10, 19), Idumea (Isa 34:3–5), Israel (Jer 4:14, 16, 23ff; Joel 2:10–11), and Egypt (Eze 32:2, 7–8, 11–12). This imagery is 50 especially appropriate for Israel, for the Mishnah teaches: “Upon threethings the universe stands: upon Torah, and upon the Temple service, and upon deeds of loving kindness” (m. Aboth 1:2). Even allegedly literalistic dispensationalists can write of Isaiah 13:10: “The statements in 13:10 about the heavenly bodies . . . no longer function may figuratively describe the total turnaround of the political structure of the Near East. The same would be true of the heavens trembling and the earth shaking (v. 13), figures of speech suggesting all-encompassing destruction.”

51 The final collapse of Jerusalem and the temple will be the sign that the Son of Man, whom the Jews reject and crucify, is in heaven (Mt 24:30). The fulfillment of his judgment-word demonstrates his heavenly 52 position and power (cf. Dt 18:22). This causes the Jewish tribes of the Land (ge) to mourn (kopto, cf. Lk 23:27–28; cp. Mt 8:11–12).

Through these events the Jews were to “see” the Son of Man in his judgmentcoming in terrifying cloud-glory: clouds symbolize his divine majesty by stormy destruction (Isa 19:1; cf. Ps 18:10–14; La 2:1; Eze 30:3–5).

The first century Sanhedrin and others will experience such in their life times (Mt 26:64; Mk 9:1; cf. Rev 1:7 with Rev 1:1, 3). The trumpet gathering. Matthew 24:31 portrays the ultimate Jubilee of salvation, which Christ decorates with imagery from Leviticus 25. Following upon the collapse of the temple order, Christ’s “messengers”53 will go forth powerfully trumpeting the gospel of salvific liberation (Lk 4:16–21; Isa 61:1–3; cf. Lev 25:9–10). Through gospel preaching God gathers the elect into the kingdom of God from the four corners of the world, from horizon to horizon.54

 

[Iconoclast]

Concerning Ezekiels temple;
Problems with the Dispensational View First, the dispensational view is hermeneutically flawed. Previously (ch. 7) I commented on the error of literalism as a basic hermeneutic. What is more, in Ezekiel 40ff we have marot elohim, “divine visions.”76 This fact could easily militate against literalism, because Scripture often ideally conceptualizes spiritual truths in visions. This is the same sort of vision occurring in earlier chapters in Ezekiel, where the prophet frames spiritual truths as concrete realities. See particularly Ezekiel 1–3 and 8–11 (cf. the distinction between a vision and direct revelation in Nu 12:6).

In fact, we cannot literally interpret certain aspects of the vision:
(1) The site of the temple is on a “very high mountain” (Eze 40:2), although Jerusalem has no “very high mountain.”

(2) The river’s source and flow is incredible — flowing from under the temple’s threshold it becomes a great river (Eze 47:1–2).

(3) The river’s making the Dead Sea fresh and bringing life to all that it touches (Eze 47:6–12) is surely symbolism.

(4) The Twelve Tribes receive parallel tracts of land, which would be awkward in real geography (Eze 47:13ff). The exegetical pressures against the dispensational view of future sacrifices are just too great. The NewScofield Reference Bible (1967) notes of the sin offering sacrifices in Ezekiel 43:19: “the reference to sacrifices is not to be taken literally.” Here it 77 makes a major concession to dispensationalism’s critics, while breeching one of their fundamental principles, literalism. Dispensationalists argue that the particular details in Ezekiel’s temple vision militate against an ideal portrayal. But this phenomenon is quite common in Ezekiel. For instance, when Isaiah speaks of the king of 78 Tyre, he does so in a few verses in brief, general terms (Isa 23:1–17). But Ezekiel provides many details in three chapters dealing with that king’s greatness and fall (Eze 26–28). We see the same sort of detail in prophecies portraying judgments upon Egypt and Jerusalem. The special details of the temple vision flow from Ezekiel’s being a priest (Eze 1:3). He even characterizes Israel’s sin as centering in the temple (Eze 8–11). Even Solomon’s temple is a material symbol of heavenly and spiritual truths that are important in its construction. So why should not a vision allow for such detail in portraying spiritual truths? The spiritual truth is more glorious than the physical building. Furthermore, John’s vision of the New Jerusalem obviously reflects back in some ways upon Ezekiel’s vision.

John seems to adapt Ezekiel’s vision as portraying God’s kingdom in history. But John’s is manifestly 79 a symbolic portrayal, for the city’s size is a 1,342-mile cube. This would cause the top of the city to extend more than 1100 miles beyond the orbit of the International Space Station (ISS), which orbits at 190 miles above the earth. Like John’s vision, Ezekiel’s is an ideal symbol, not a prophecy of a literal city. Second, the dispensational view is redemptively retrogressive. As David Brown complains over a century ago: Such a position is guilty of “Judaizing our Christianity, instead of Christianizing the adherents of Judaism.”80 Ezekiel’s temple vision, if we interpret it literally, would reimpose circumcision and displace baptism (at least for males): “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel” (Eze 44:9)This re-establishes what the New Testament asserts is forever disestablished. Christ permanently removes the circumcisional separat- 81 ing “parti-tion” between Jew and Gentile (Eph 2:11–21). The “true circumcision” are those who worship Christ in the Spirit (Php 3:3), for “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything” (Gal 5:6; Col 2:11). A literalistic approach to Ezekiel’s vision would re-institute redemptive sacrifices, despite the new covenant’s fulfilling and removing them (Heb 7:27; 8:13; 9:26; 10:1–14). It re-institutes “the burnt offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering” (Eze 40:39; cf. 43:21), though Christ takes these away (Heb 10:5, 9, 18). Why would the Lord return again to the “weak and beggarly elements” of the ceremonial law (Gal 4:9)? John 4:21 anticipates the removing of the temple order: “The hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.” Hebrews 8:13 does as well: “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” Various other Old Testament prophecies transcend the Mosaic pattern of worship in the temple environs (Isa 19:19; Jer 3:16; Zec 14:21; Mal 1:11). Which shall we follow? References that transcend temple worship; or those that reintroduce it? Obviously, we are dealing with symbolic language. When properly interpreted no contradiction exists between the two types of references. Historic premillennialists recognize the problem but moan: “I cannot easily harmonize the two streams of teaching in the New Testament,” nevertheless “if we cannot flatten out all the bumps in this picture, I will not worry.” But the bumps needing flattening out are in the dispensational system.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then this;
The Postmillennial View To understand the significance of Ezekiel’s visionary temple, we must keep in mind the conceptual idea which the temple structure and services embody.
In essence the temple itself is a symbol: it symbolizes the covenantal relationship of God with his people. The heart of the covenant appears in that most important promise: “I will be your God, you will be My people.” The temple is the special place where God dwells among his people
(1Ki 6:12–13; Jer 7:4–7),
as he does in the tabernacle preceding it (Ex 29:42; 25:22; 30:36).
God’s glory is especially present in his sanctuary (1Ki 8:11; 2Ch 7:1–2), even though no temple could contain his immense being (1Ki 8:27; Isa 66:1; Jer 23:24).
This idea clearly relates to Ezekiel’s temple vision in 48:35: “The name of the city from that day shall be: The Lord is There.” That visionary temple symbolizes God’s glorious presence in Christ’s kingdom, which comes in the new covenant era. and it is so because even further defined, it is symbolic of Christ Himself. Christ is the true presence of God which could only be hinted at in the temple construction.
“Ezekiel’s vision of the new temple is part of this prophetic pattern of a restoration so total that it sublimates the ceremonial structure in glory. Ezekiel’s restoration returns David to the throne, and sees a temple that is a sanctuary of Paradise, where the river of life flows from God’s throne past trees whose leaves are for the healing of the nations.”
One of the Old Testament’s closing prophecies is Malachi 3:1: “And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight.” This coming is the message of the New Testament: the Lord has come to “tabernacle” among us (Jn 1:14, Gk.; ekenosen, cf. Jn 1:1; 1Jn 1:1–3). When he comes, shepherds visit him, while out in the fields keeping sacrificial sheep destined for the temple. When his parents present him forty days later 87 in the temple, Simeon praises him as the “glory of Your people Israel” (Lk 2:32) — language reflecting God’s Shekinah glory, which evidences God’s presence in the temple (Ex 40:34, 35; 1Sa 4:21–22). He stands as the glorious realization of the temple’s meaning, for he who sees him sees the Father (Jn 14:9), for “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Col 2:9). He even transfigures before his disciples as a glorious display of his true identity (Mt 17:1–8; Mk 9:2–8). Consequently, he justly claims to be greater than the temple (Mt 12:6), for he is its fulfillment, being the very presence of God. In fact, he is “the stone which the builders rejected” which “has become the chief cornerstone” of God’s new temple (Mt 21:42).88 Consequently, as his prophetic ministry opens Christ stands in the shadow of the earthly temple and informs Jerusalem of this glorious truth: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” by which “He was speaking of the temple of His body” (Jn 2:19, 21), a temple “not made with hands” (Mk 14:58). Therefore, he offers Himself to men as the heavenly manna, which was once housed in the Ark of the Covenant in the temple. He offers the living waters of Ezekiel’s temple (Eze 47; cf. 89 Joel 3:18; Zec 14:8) to his hearers (Jn 4:10–15; 7:38–39). He is the sacrificial “Lamb of God” destined for temple service (Jn 1:29). As he establishes the new covenant (Lk 22:20), he impresses upon the hearts of his followers God’s Law (Mt 5:16–20; cp. Jer 31:31–34; 2Co 4:3, 6; Heb 8:8–11), which was formerly kept on stone tablets in the Holy of holies (Ex 25:21; Dt 10:5; Heb 9:4). Thus, when he dies the temple era formally ends with the rending of the temple veil (Mt 27:51). When he speaks of the temple’s absolute destruction in AD 70, he does not intimate any God-endorsed rebuilding (Mt 24 ), nor the return of the temple mount to 90 holy status (Jn 4:21–24) — indeed, he speaks of faith casting the temple mount into the sea (Mt 21:21)

 

[Zao is life]

Fullness of the Gentiles,

[So let's please stay out of the book of Revelation for now and concentrate on the similarity between

Matthew 24:31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


and 1 Corinthians 15:52.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


It you can give me a plausible answer regarding the seeming similarity between the above verses, then who knows, I may even begin to consider the Partial Preterist view of the Revelation]

If the great tribulation is shown to be the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, a transition from Old Covenant to new Covenant,

1cor15:52 is the rapture on the last day as Jesus taught in John6;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now before vs 52 comes this part of 1 cor15;

Jesus is reigning now from heaven in the midst of His enemies as per psalm110;
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

on mt24:31-
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am not certain if the angels spoken of here are angels as ministering spirits,
heb1:
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

or angels as messengers, ie pastors of Churches preaching the gospel worldwide to gather in the elect , as Satan is bound a 1000yrs, to no longer deceive the nations.

There are a few things that need addressing about what you said above:

1. "Great" Tribulation, i.e megas thlipsis (Greek):

Remember that tribulation is merely a word describing the experience of people or peoples or nations, and not always is the experience of tribulation a result of God's wrath coming upon the people (example the tribulation of the Christians under the hand of Nero). In other words, it's not always a judgement.

Tribulation is what was the experience of God's people under the hand of Pharaoh ("the beast" of that day), and Pharaoh and the Egyptians were the recipients of the plagues.

Of all the New Testament verses talking about tribulation, affliction, etc, only two are not talking about tribulation as the experience of the saints: Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

The rest are all talking about tribulation as the experience of the saints (whereas the seven last plagues a.k.a bowls of wrath will be experienced only by unbelievers).

Only 3 times in the New Testament is the word megas (great) used as an adjective to describe the tribulation - and two of them are beyond dispute talking about a great tribulation as the experience of the saints: Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14.

The only other mention of great tribulation is in Matthew 24:21. (Luke 21 does not call the period being spoken of "tribulation" but speaks of it as distress and anguish and wrath coming upon the people, which is confirmation that the Olivet Discourse is referring to that period in time, and the tribulation of the Jews).

But the New Testament does not teach that the saints do not suffer great tribulation (see Revelation 7:14 and Revelation 2:22).

2.The second thing you mentioned is this:

1 Corinthians 15
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Hebrews 2
8b But now (Greek: nyn) we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

("You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.)

The word "now" is a translation of the Greek word nyn which means "of this present time". It's the same word used by Jesus here:

John 18
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world (Greek: o kosmos): if my kingdom were of this world (Greek: o kosmos), then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now (Greek: nyn) is my kingdom not from hence.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world (Greek: o kosmos) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

3. The third thing you mentioned is the word "Then" in this verse:

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then (Greek: eita) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The same word is used in Mark 4:28, and shows that there is a season for each stage:

"For the earth brings out fruit of itself, first the blade, then (Greek: eita) the ear, after that (Greek: eita) the full grain in the ear."

So what you're doing, firstly by applying the words "great tribulation" to the experience of the Jews in A.D 70 only, and secondly what you did with regards to all things being placed under Christ's feet, is to cut out the seasons for each stage of the Kingdom of God.

PS: Sorry I ran back to the Revelation after asking you not to, but it was because the only other references to great tribulation are found in the Revelation, and are talking about a tribulation that is the experience of the saints.

 

[Zao is life]

Concerning Ezekiels temple;
Problems with the Dispensational View First, the dispensational view is hermeneutically flawed. Previously (ch. 7) I commented on the error of literalism as a basic hermeneutic. What is more, in Ezekiel 40ff we have marot elohim, “divine visions.”76 This fact could easily militate against literalism, because Scripture often ideally conceptualizes spiritual truths in visions. This is the same sort of vision occurring in earlier chapters in Ezekiel, where the prophet frames spiritual truths as concrete realities. See particularly Ezekiel 1–3 and 8–11 (cf. the distinction between a vision and direct revelation in Nu 12:6).

In fact, we cannot literally interpret certain aspects of the vision:
(1) The site of the temple is on a “very high mountain” (Eze 40:2), although Jerusalem has no “very high mountain.”

(2) The river’s source and flow is incredible — flowing from under the temple’s threshold it becomes a great river (Eze 47:1–2).

(3) The river’s making the Dead Sea fresh and bringing life to all that it touches (Eze 47:6–12) is surely symbolism.

(4) The Twelve Tribes receive parallel tracts of land, which would be awkward in real geography (Eze 47:13ff). The exegetical pressures against the dispensational view of future sacrifices are just too great. The NewScofield Reference Bible (1967) notes of the sin offering sacrifices in Ezekiel 43:19: “the reference to sacrifices is not to be taken literally.” Here it 77 makes a major concession to dispensationalism’s critics, while breeching one of their fundamental principles, literalism. Dispensationalists argue that the particular details in Ezekiel’s temple vision militate against an ideal portrayal. But this phenomenon is quite common in Ezekiel. For instance, when Isaiah speaks of the king of 78 Tyre, he does so in a few verses in brief, general terms (Isa 23:1–17). But Ezekiel provides many details in three chapters dealing with that king’s greatness and fall (Eze 26–28). We see the same sort of detail in prophecies portraying judgments upon Egypt and Jerusalem. The special details of the temple vision flow from Ezekiel’s being a priest (Eze 1:3). He even characterizes Israel’s sin as centering in the temple (Eze 8–11). Even Solomon’s temple is a material symbol of heavenly and spiritual truths that are important in its construction. So why should not a vision allow for such detail in portraying spiritual truths? The spiritual truth is more glorious than the physical building. Furthermore, John’s vision of the New Jerusalem obviously reflects back in some ways upon Ezekiel’s vision.

John seems to adapt Ezekiel’s vision as portraying God’s kingdom in history. But John’s is manifestly 79 a symbolic portrayal, for the city’s size is a 1,342-mile cube. This would cause the top of the city to extend more than 1100 miles beyond the orbit of the International Space Station (ISS), which orbits at 190 miles above the earth. Like John’s vision, Ezekiel’s is an ideal symbol, not a prophecy of a literal city. Second, the dispensational view is redemptively retrogressive. As David Brown complains over a century ago: Such a position is guilty of “Judaizing our Christianity, instead of Christianizing the adherents of Judaism.”80 Ezekiel’s temple vision, if we interpret it literally, would reimpose circumcision and displace baptism (at least for males): “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel” (Eze 44:9)This re-establishes what the New Testament asserts is forever disestablished. Christ permanently removes the circumcisional separat- 81 ing “parti-tion” between Jew and Gentile (Eph 2:11–21). The “true circumcision” are those who worship Christ in the Spirit (Php 3:3), for “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything” (Gal 5:6; Col 2:11). A literalistic approach to Ezekiel’s vision would re-institute redemptive sacrifices, despite the new covenant’s fulfilling and removing them (Heb 7:27; 8:13; 9:26; 10:1–14). It re-institutes “the burnt offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering” (Eze 40:39; cf. 43:21), though Christ takes these away (Heb 10:5, 9, 18). Why would the Lord return again to the “weak and beggarly elements” of the ceremonial law (Gal 4:9)? John 4:21 anticipates the removing of the temple order: “The hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.” Hebrews 8:13 does as well: “When He said, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” Various other Old Testament prophecies transcend the Mosaic pattern of worship in the temple environs (Isa 19:19; Jer 3:16; Zec 14:21; Mal 1:11). Which shall we follow? References that transcend temple worship; or those that reintroduce it? Obviously, we are dealing with symbolic language. When properly interpreted no contradiction exists between the two types of references. Historic premillennialists recognize the problem but moan: “I cannot easily harmonize the two streams of teaching in the New Testament,” nevertheless “if we cannot flatten out all the bumps in this picture, I will not worry.” But the bumps needing flattening out are in 82 the dispensational system.

Not all Premillennialists are Dispensationalists and I'm not a Dispensationalist and your posts are going off into a refutation of Dispensationlism which is taking us way off track from ascertaining whether or not Matthew 24:31 is talking about A.D 70 or not, and whether or not there is any future element in the Revelation.

You're concentrating on Ezekiel's temple now. Way off the subject. Scofield is the last person who's views I would consider. I'm here to discuss your views on Matthew 24:31. The rest of the Olivet Discourse does indeed seem to fit with A.D 70, and no other time.

 

[Zao is life]

Ken Gentry offers this about the time;
Second, in the other five instances in Matthew where the word genea appears with the near demonstrative (haute, “this”), it clearly refers to the generation then living (Mt 11:16; 12:41, 42, 45; 23:36).

In Scripture the idea of a “generation” of people involves roughly twenty-five to forty years (Nu 32:13; Ps 95:10).

Third, the phrase “this generation” appears in the very context that intimately relates to and leads into Matthew 24 (cf. 23:36–38 with 24:1–2).

In Matthew 23:36 “this generation” unquestionably speaks of Jesus’ contemporaries, as even dispensationalists admit. Here Jesus is 20 condemning his contemporary adversaries, the scribes and Pharisees (23:2, 13–16, 23–29). He says that they will “fill up the measure of the guilt” of the previous generations (23:32). They will do this by persecuting Jesus’ followers (23:34), so that “upon you [scribes and Pharisees] may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed” (23:35). He concludes: “Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation” (23:36). This employs the same crucial terms as Matthew 24:34

The Abomination of Desolation. Jesus warns: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)” (Mt 24:15). This refers to the AD 70 event, as we may discern from several angles:
(1) The temple is then standing in the “holy city” (Jerusalem, Mt 4:5; 27:53).

(2) In the context the disciples point to that particular temple (Mt 24:1), giving rise to this very discourse (Mt 23:38–24:3).

3) Christ points to that temple, when he speaks of the temple’s destruction (Mt 24:2).

(4) The specific time frame demands an AD 70 reference for the “abomination” (Mt 24:34). The “abomination of desolation” will be so awful that it will result in desperate flight from the area (Mt 24:16–20). It will occur “in the holy place.”

Surely this involves the temple, but it may be broader, speaking of both the city and the temple. Two problems present themselves to the temple-only view: (1) Luke 21:20 interprets the phrase as the surrounding of the city, which does indeed happen (Josephus, J.W. 5:12:1). Jerusalem itself is a holy place, being the capital of the “holy land” (Zec 2:12).36 (2) The original Old Testament context mentions both “the city and the sanctuary” (Da 9:26).

OK wait you're completely losing me because you're not clicking the Reply button (bottom right) so I don't know whose posts are addressing.

But I also have to go now. So I'll be back within the next 24-48 hours.

God bless and thanks for the time.

 

[Zao is life]

Ken Gentry; He shall have Dominion,pg428,429

Astronomical signs. Matthew 24:29–30 reads: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Futurists see these verses as “of particular importance” in demonstrating the error of preterism, showing that “this approach to 24:29–31
48 cannot be sustained.”
49 The darkening of the sun and moon is common apocalyptic language for signifying the collapse of nations, such as in Old Testament judgments on Babylon (Isa 13:1, 10, 19), Idumea (Isa 34:3–5), Israel (Jer 4:14, 16, 23ff; Joel 2:10–11), and Egypt (Eze 32:2, 7–8, 11–12). This imagery is 50 especially appropriate for Israel, for the Mishnah teaches: “Upon threethings the universe stands: upon Torah, and upon the Temple service, and upon deeds of loving kindness” (m. Aboth 1:2). Even allegedly literalistic dispensationalists can write of Isaiah 13:10: “The statements in 13:10 about the heavenly bodies . . . no longer function may figuratively describe the total turnaround of the political structure of the Near East. The same would be true of the heavens trembling and the earth shaking (v. 13), figures of speech suggesting all-encompassing destruction.”

51 The final collapse of Jerusalem and the temple will be the sign that the Son of Man, whom the Jews reject and crucify, is in heaven (Mt 24:30). The fulfillment of his judgment-word demonstrates his heavenly 52 position and power (cf. Dt 18:22). This causes the Jewish tribes of the Land (ge) to mourn (kopto, cf. Lk 23:27–28; cp. Mt 8:11–12).

Through these events the Jews were to “see” the Son of Man in his judgmentcoming in terrifying cloud-glory: clouds symbolize his divine majesty by stormy destruction (Isa 19:1; cf. Ps 18:10–14; La 2:1; Eze 30:3–5).

The first century Sanhedrin and others will experience such in their life times (Mt 26:64; Mk 9:1; cf. Rev 1:7 with Rev 1:1, 3). The trumpet gathering. Matthew 24:31 portrays the ultimate Jubilee of salvation, which Christ decorates with imagery from Leviticus 25. Following upon the collapse of the temple order, Christ’s “messengers”53 will go forth powerfully trumpeting the gospel of salvific liberation (Lk 4:16–21; Isa 61:1–3; cf. Lev 25:9–10). Through gospel preaching God gathers the elect into the kingdom of God from the four corners of the world, from horizon to horizon.54

That (almost) all makes sense. Thank you.

I'm very grateful for this, which now that I've seen it, I agree with:
QUOTE Iconoclast
The darkening of the sun and moon is common apocalyptic language for signifying the collapse of nations, such as in Old Testament judgments on Babylon (Isa 13:1, 10, 19), Idumea (Isa 34:3–5), Israel (Jer 4:14, 16, 23ff; Joel 2:10–11), and Egypt (Eze 32:2, 7–8, 11–12).
UNQUOTE

Matthew 24:31 is given a partial explanation by the above, but I'm not sure that explanation suffices when compared with 1 Corinthians 15:52, if it's a 1st century date we're talking about (for the ultimate fulfillment of that verse only). Therefore my understanding of the Olivet Discourse, though still not 100% clear, has never been better than it is now.

As far as Revelation is concerned, I don't agree with the view which sees as having already taken place, that which comes after the words "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here, and I will show you things which must be hereafter." (Revelation 4:1).

But that is a very long and in-depth topic, as is Ezekiel.

I'm very grateful for this conversation though and maybe it will continue (depending on how much time you have and I have), but I'm happy to have had the opportunity for this discussion up till now because my understanding of the symbolism has increased, and my understanding of the parallels between Ezekiel and Revelation has been expanded.

 

[Zao is life]

Ken Gentry offers this about the time;
Second, in the other five instances in Matthew where the word genea appears with the near demonstrative (haute, “this”), it clearly refers to the generation then living (Mt 11:16; 12:41, 42, 45; 23:36).

In Scripture the idea of a “generation” of people involves roughly twenty-five to forty years (Nu 32:13; Ps 95:10).

Third, the phrase “this generation” appears in the very context that intimately relates to and leads into Matthew 24 (cf. 23:36–38 with 24:1–2).

In Matthew 23:36 “this generation” unquestionably speaks of Jesus’ contemporaries, as even dispensationalists admit. Here Jesus is 20 condemning his contemporary adversaries, the scribes and Pharisees (23:2, 13–16, 23–29). He says that they will “fill up the measure of the guilt” of the previous generations (23:32). They will do this by persecuting Jesus’ followers (23:34), so that “upon you [scribes and Pharisees] may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed” (23:35). He concludes: “Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation” (23:36). This employs the same crucial terms as Matthew 24:34

The Abomination of Desolation. Jesus warns: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)” (Mt 24:15). This refers to the AD 70 event, as we may discern from several angles:
(1) The temple is then standing in the “holy city” (Jerusalem, Mt 4:5; 27:53).

(2) In the context the disciples point to that particular temple (Mt 24:1), giving rise to this very discourse (Mt 23:38–24:3).

3) Christ points to that temple, when he speaks of the temple’s destruction (Mt 24:2).

(4) The specific time frame demands an AD 70 reference for the “abomination” (Mt 24:34). The “abomination of desolation” will be so awful that it will result in desperate flight from the area (Mt 24:16–20). It will occur “in the holy place.”

Surely this involves the temple, but it may be broader, speaking of both the city and the temple. Two problems present themselves to the temple-only view: (1) Luke 21:20 interprets the phrase as the surrounding of the city, which does indeed happen (Josephus, J.W. 5:12:1). Jerusalem itself is a holy place, being the capital of the “holy land” (Zec 2:12).36 (2) The original Old Testament context mentions both “the city and the sanctuary” (Da 9:26).

I agree with all of this.

 

[Iconoclast]

This helped me on. Ezekiel...

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 2 4-8 is speaking of born again men renewing the creation mandate Gen1:26-28 in the last Adam.The gospel is going from sea to sea psalm22:27-30
psa72:8-11....but is not yet completed....we see not yet all things put under Him.
The Great Commission mt28:18-20...all nations..this takes time.

 

[Zao is life]

Hebrews 2 4-8 is speaking of born again men renewing the creation mandate Gen1:26-28 in the last Adam.The gospel is going from sea to sea psalm22:27-30
psa72:8-11....but is not yet completed....we see not yet all things put under Him.
The Great Commission mt28:18-20...all nations..this takes time.

Exactly. Though He has all authority in heaven and on earth, Jesus only currently rules in the world (because His kingdom is not now of this world) through those who both believe in Him and submit to Him. He does not rule in the world through those who believe in Him yet do not submit to His authority and will, nor does He rule through those who neither believe nor submit. That's why this world has always been in such a mess and why the mess has grown exponentially with international travel via plane, ship, train, car, and digital data, and with the mixing with the seed of men taking place in every multi-religious (a.k.a multi-cultural) society on earth. It's become a scrambled egg and compromise with the world on the part of churches has set in big time.

 

[Zao is life]

This helped me on. Ezekiel...

So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Galatians 6:15

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Revelation 21
5 And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

OK I'm following what you are saying so I'll be ready to discuss the Revelation from tomorrow, if you're going to be available (not today, because I have too much to do still today).

 

[Iconoclast]

Not all Premillennialists are Dispensationalists and I'm not a Dispensationalist and your posts are going off into a refutation of Dispensationlism which is taking us way off track from ascertaining whether or not Matthew 24:31 is talking about A.D 70 or not, and whether or not there is any future element in the Revelation.

You're concentrating on Ezekiel's temple now. Way off the subject. Scofield is the last person who's views I would consider. I'm here to discuss your views on Matthew 24:31. The rest of the Olivet Discourse does indeed seetem to fit with A.D 70, and no other time.

Glad you are not dispensational now.
When you get a chance listen to these sermons.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not all Premillennialists are Dispensationalists and I'm not a Dispensationalist and your posts are going off into a refutation of Dispensationlism which is taking us way off track from ascertaining whether or not Matthew 24:31 is talking about A.D 70 or not, and whether or not there is any future element in the Revelation.

You're concentrating on Ezekiel's temple now. Way off the subject. Scofield is the last person who's views I would consider. I'm here to discuss your views on Matthew 24:31. The rest of the Olivet Discourse does indeed seem to fit with A.D 70, and no other time.

i know you are not a dispensationalist, many are.
These links while refuting them offer positive instruction.
Weed out those things that do not pertain to you.