Pre-trib rapture!

[rebuilder 454]

Look, I do not believe that a Pre-Trib Rapture is going to occure, Jesus wisely warned us not to stumble over Him and I am not going stumble
over His cross to embrace a blessed hope Mary doctrine, or a blessed hope Saturday doctrine or a blessed hope pre-trib doctrine. My blessed hope is Jesus and Him crucified. If Jesus comes this very hour, HE WILL TAKE ME WITH HIM because my heart is filled to the brim with the expectaion to perservere TO THE END. However, Jesus, in His own words said this: "You will not "see" me again until the son of perdition is revealed". "See" does not mean a secret invisible coming that excludes everyone except baptists who own escotology.

The difference between you and me, is that no matter when Jesus decides to show up, I win on both counts. Good luck fella!

"Many will fall from the faith in that day"

If you say he is not coming, and cant, in spite of the vivid pretrib rapture and 3 comings spoken of and shown you by Jesus, then ,it is you that is gonna get lucky if he takes a person that is not watching and waiting for his imminent return. Even the foolish virgins went out to meet him.
postribbers say we are foolish and weak for watching and waiting.

"You will not "see" me again until the son of perdition is revealed"
By your own words you support a pretrib rapture.
Paul said "REVEALED".
I agree 100% with that declaration.
I believe he is revealed then the rapture happens.
Psssst, revealed is the setting. Again you ignore and reframe the setting.
Revealed would be at the start.
AHEM, you know, at the beginning, when nothing much is happening, and he is not in full power. Yes, revealed, then the rapture a day later.
2thes 2;3
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
See that??? see "FIRST", as in BEFORE??? THEN "REVEALED".
Just look at the picture your doctrine paints.
Instead of a rapture at his revealing, you got the rapture,7 years later!!!
Thank you Jesus for your awesome word!!!!!!

 

[Writer]

If you say he is not coming, and cant, in spite of the vivid pretrib rapture and 3 comings spoken of and shown you by Jesus, then ,it is you that is gonna get lucky if he takes a person that is not watching and waiting for his imminent return. Even the foolish virgins went out to meet him.
postribbers say we are foolish and weak for watching and waiting.

"You will not "see" me again until the son of perdition is revealed"
By your own words you support a pretrib rapture.
Paul said "REVEALED".
I agree 100% with that declaration.
I believe he is revealed then the rapture happens.
Psssst, revealed is the setting. Again you ignore and reframe the setting.
Revealed would be at the start.
AHEM, you know, at the beginning, when nothing much is happening, and he is not in full power. Yes, revealed, then the rapture a day later.
2thes 2;3
Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
See that??? see "FIRST", as in BEFORE??? THEN "REVEALED".
Just look at the picture your doctrine paints.
Instead of a rapture at his revealing, you got the rapture,7 years later!!!
Thank you Jesus for your awesome word!!!!!!

You are a fool to believe that Thesalonians, the trumpet call, the clouds, and the calling up of the Elect happens twice, once for you, and once for me...an absolute fool. Again, if that is your belief than so be it.

Put me on your don't call list AND DON'T COME BACK!

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are a fool to believe that Thesalonians, the trumpet call, the clouds, and the calling up of the Elect happens twice, once for you, and once for me...an absolute fool. Again, if that is your belief than so be it.

Put me on your don't call list AND DON'T COME BACK!

So you are placing the gathering of 1 thes 4 AFTER the mid trib gathering of rev 14:14?
That is impossible.
You just painted yourself into a corner.
The dead in Christ rise first. NOT AFTER.
Your doctrine,as I have pointed out numerous times is based on omissions.
Pssst...you can not have the dead in Christ FOLLOW the rev 14:14 gathering.
It Will NOT WORK!!!
Game
Set
Match
Bible is awesome,if it is your source.
One day you will get it.
Omissions and reframing are not your friend.

 

[Writer]

The "RAPTURE" does not occur twice. Jesus coming, the clouds, the trumpet call, the 1st resurrection all occur once and only once...AT HIS SECOND COMING.

You don't get a secret coming, a 7 year honeymoon, and then come back with him out of the sky and decend to the clouds with Him at His second coming. Everything you have stated so far, in everyone of your post, shows how you have taken scripture and conjured an event that does not exist in the bible ANYWHERE.

Your rapture is a mirage that you promise will be thirst quenching when the bar tender shows up in secret, to make it so we can drink from it, However...BE WARNED, if we don't believe it, than shucks, we'll be left behind, SAYS YOU. The scriptdures don't say that. All the papers you are willing to write on conjecture will convince no one.

Again, Jesus is coming for those with a "FULL" TANK, the prudent. If He comes sooner, He is coming for the Prudent FULL TANKERS whether sooner or later. He is not coming for the arogant, I'm better than the dead first crap, why I'm going up berfore the Jew, who is first, the heck with them, why their going to stay to face the Son of Perdition, not me. I'm going on a honymoon don't cha know! FOOL!

 

[Davy]

Just the fact this debate is still going on suggests too many of my Christian brethren just aren't reading their Bible for themselves, but are putting their trust in men, or a particular Church system and its fleshy doctrines.

To know when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church per God's Word is very... EASY. All one need do is listen to what Jesus Himself said, and heed it:

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which shows His coming is AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church.

Apostle Paul says the same timing in 1 Thessalonians 4 as Jesus said, because 1 Thess.4:13-16 says Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and verse 16 says those must be resurrected first. The future resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this present world time folks, not PRIOR to the "great tribulation".

So Bible Scripture on this is very EASY, if... one merely listens to Lord Jesus in His Word.

 

[Writer]

Just the fact this debate is still going on suggests too many of my Christian brethren just aren't reading their Bible for themselves, but are putting their trust in men, or a particular Church system and its fleshy doctrines.

To know when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church per God's Word is very... EASY. All one need do is listen to what Jesus Himself said, and heed it:

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which shows His coming is AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church.

Apostle Paul says the same timing in 1 Thessalonians 4 as Jesus said, because 1 Thess.4:13-16 says Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and verse 16 says those must be resurrected first. The future resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this present world time folks, not PRIOR to the "great tribulation".

So Bible Scripture on this is very EASY, if... one merely listens to Lord Jesus in His Word.

Just the fact this debate is still going on suggests too many of my Christian brethren just aren't reading their Bible for themselves, but are putting their trust in men, or a particular Church system and its fleshy doctrines.

To know when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church per God's Word is very... EASY. All one need do is listen to what Jesus Himself said, and heed it:

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which shows His coming is AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church.

Apostle Paul says the same timing in 1 Thessalonians 4 as Jesus said, because 1 Thess.4:13-16 says Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and verse 16 says those must be resurrected first. The future resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this present world time folks, not PRIOR to the "great tribulation".

So Bible Scripture on this is very EASY, if... one merely listens to Lord Jesus in His Word.

According to Pre-Tribers, if you merely listen to the Lord Jesus in His word, it's not enough, you'll be left behind, because you must "BELIEVE" in the blessed hope rapture doctrine to escape the fate that is exclusively prepared for the Jews, the Great Tribulation.

When Jesus hung on the Cross and said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do", well God didn't listen to His only begotten Son, no sir, even though God said "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM". Why God is going to teach those Jews a lesson they'll never forget. It's not enough the Jews went through slavery, occupation, diaspora, and genocide, God is now going for the final solution. The heck with "...to the Jew first...".

The stench of self righteous arrogance to worship a pre-tribulation "blessed hope" rapture, like a golden cow, that causes division among His body, is what God will reveal in Matthew 7:23 "And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

 

[rebuilder 454]

Just the fact this debate is still going on suggests too many of my Christian brethren just aren't reading their Bible for themselves, but are putting their trust in men, or a particular Church system and its fleshy doctrines.

To know when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church per God's Word is very... EASY. All one need do is listen to what Jesus Himself said, and heed it:

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which shows His coming is AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church.

Apostle Paul says the same timing in 1 Thessalonians 4 as Jesus said, because 1 Thess.4:13-16 says Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and verse 16 says those must be resurrected first. The future resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this present world time folks, not PRIOR to the "great tribulation".

So Bible Scripture on this is very EASY, if... one merely listens to Lord Jesus in His Word.

Especially when one does not read their bible ,as you just demonstrated ,by omitting the pretrib rapture verses.
Then misquoting mat 24.
That "after" you addressed is ANGELS GATHEREING,not Jesus,and that gathering is FROM HEAVEN,not earth.
So yes, it is amazing how you prefer some mans teaching over the written, and vivid words of the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

According to Pre-Tribers, if you merely listen to the Lord Jesus in His word, it's not enough, you'll be left behind, because you must "BELIEVE" in the blessed hope rapture doctrine to escape the fate that is exclusively prepared for the Jews, the Great Tribulation.

When Jesus hung on the Cross and said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do", well God didn't listen to His only begotten Son, no sir, even though God said "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM". Why God is going to teach those Jews a lesson they'll never forget. It's not enough the Jews went through slavery, occupation, diaspora, and genocide, God is now going for the final solution. The heck with "...to the Jew first...".

The stench of self righteous arrogance to worship a pre-tribulation "blessed hope" rapture, like a golden cow, that causes division among His body, is what God will reveal in Matthew 7:23 "And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

You do not have a single verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Pretrib rapture is Jesus words.
You have no answer and never will to mat 24 and Luke 17 where Jesus depicts a gathering prejudgment.
You have no answer.
You have No answer to rev 14:14, but must ignore blissfully that you place the dead in Christ resurrection AFTER the living gathered midtrib by Jesus on a cloud.
Your error is blatant and all I can do is shake my head.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Just the fact this debate is still going on suggests too many of my Christian brethren just aren't reading their Bible for themselves, but are putting their trust in men, or a particular Church system and its fleshy doctrines.

To know when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church per God's Word is very... EASY. All one need do is listen to what Jesus Himself said, and heed it:

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which shows His coming is AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church.

Apostle Paul says the same timing in 1 Thessalonians 4 as Jesus said, because 1 Thess.4:13-16 says Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and verse 16 says those must be resurrected first. The future resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this present world time folks, not PRIOR to the "great tribulation".

So Bible Scripture on this is very EASY, if... one merely listens to Lord Jesus in His Word.

Bible is as you say easy.
Ignoring the pretrib rapture verses is also easy for you guys.
Sad

 

[rebuilder 454]

The "RAPTURE" does not occur twice. Jesus coming, the clouds, the trumpet call, the 1st resurrection all occur once and only once...AT HIS SECOND COMING.

You don't get a secret coming, a 7 year honeymoon, and then come back with him out of the sky and decend to the clouds with Him at His second coming. Everything you have stated so far, in everyone of your post, shows how you have taken scripture and conjured an event that does not exist in the bible ANYWHERE.

Your rapture is a mirage that you promise will be thirst quenching when the bar tender shows up in secret, to make it so we can drink from it, However...BE WARNED, if we don't believe it, than shucks, we'll be left behind, SAYS YOU. The scriptdures don't say that. All the papers you are willing to write on conjecture will convince no one.

Again, Jesus is coming for those with a "FULL" TANK, the prudent. If He comes sooner, He is coming for the Prudent FULL TANKERS whether sooner or later. He is not coming for the arogant, I'm better than the dead first crap, why I'm going up berfore the Jew, who is first, the heck with them, why their going to stay to face the Son of Perdition, not me. I'm going on a honymoon don't cha know! FOOL!

And yet rev 14 midtrib gathering is neither the rapture or the second coming.
Just tear it out of your bible to ease your conscience, or keep pretending and posting extra biblical theories as you seem to comfort yourself with

 

[rebuilder 454]

So you are placing the gathering of 1 thes 4 AFTER the mid trib gathering of rev 14:14?
That is impossible.
You just painted yourself into a corner.
The dead in Christ rise first. NOT AFTER.
Your doctrine,as I have pointed out numerous times is based on omissions.
Pssst...you can not have the dead in Christ FOLLOW the rev 14:14 gathering.
It Will NOT WORK!!!
Game
Set
Match
Bible is awesome,if it is your source.
One day you will get it.
Omissions and reframing are not your friend.

^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^
*******CRICKETS********

 

[Traveler]

You guys are missing a lot of points, The saints are found gathered in the sixth seal. The Jews are found gathered after the Trumpets. The seals are a tribulation but it emanates from this earth against Gods people, the Trumpets mark the start of the greater tribulation and is Gods reply to what this world system did to the saints. The saints are one group and the Jews are another. The saints are Christs while the Jews are Gods.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The "RAPTURE" does not occur twice. Jesus coming, the clouds, the trumpet call, the 1st resurrection all occur once and only once...AT HIS SECOND COMING.

You don't get a secret coming, a 7 year honeymoon, and then come back with him out of the sky and decend to the clouds with Him at His second coming. Everything you have stated so far, in everyone of your post, shows how you have taken scripture and conjured an event that does not exist in the bible ANYWHERE.

Your rapture is a mirage that you promise will be thirst quenching when the bar tender shows up in secret, to make it so we can drink from it, However...BE WARNED, if we don't believe it, than shucks, we'll be left behind, SAYS YOU. The scriptdures don't say that. All the papers you are willing to write on conjecture will convince no one.

Again, Jesus is coming for those with a "FULL" TANK, the prudent. If He comes sooner, He is coming for the Prudent FULL TANKERS whether sooner or later. He is not coming for the arogant, I'm better than the dead first crap, why I'm going up berfore the Jew, who is first, the heck with them, why their going to stay to face the Son of Perdition, not me. I'm going on a honymoon don't cha know! FOOL!

show mw where i said the rapture occurs twice.
It does not and never will.
When my opponent resorts to name calling you are totally out of gas.
You have no biblical case when I have shown you your doctrine is impossible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You guys are missing a lot of points, The saints are found gathered in the sixth seal. The Jews are found gathered after the Trumpets. The seals are a tribulation but it emanates from this earth against Gods people, the Trumpets mark the start of the greater tribulation and is Gods reply to what this world system did to the saints. The saints are one group and the Jews are another. The saints are Christs while the Jews are Gods.

Nope nothing missed.
It was I that pointed out rev 14;14 YEARS AGO.
I believe I may have been one of the first to notice rev 14;14.
In both pretribber and postribber camps I have never seen rev 14;14 added to the mix. And very few can unpack the virgin parable honestly with all components left in play.
But your points are mostly good,and covered already in my posts.

 

[Traveler]

Nope nothing missed.
It was I that pointed out rev 14;14 YEARS AGO.
I believe I may have been one of the first to notice rev 14;14.
In both pretribber and postribber camps I have never seen rev 14;14 added to the mix. And very few can unpack the virgin parable honestly with all components left in play.
But your points are mostly good,and covered already in my posts.

You may want to give this some consideration.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The gentile Christians do not sing the song of Moses, only the Jews do. Also they had to overcome the mark of the beast which is works indicating operation under the law. They are there before the bowls of wrath are poured out indicating that they have come through the times of the Trumpets.

Now we look at the rapture of the saints during the sixth seal which happens a lot earlier.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now that is the confession of the Christians, no works involved, only a trust in the blood of the Lamb that redeems them back to God. Now they came out of great tribulation, the Tribulation of the seals which originated from this earth system, it did not come from God. God replies with the Trumpets and later finishes off with the bowls of wrath.

Remember that when God made his covenant with the 12 tribes of Israel no gentile nation was represented. It was Jew specific. The Jews and gentiles are treated on different paths. The Jews are Gods inheritance from out this earth and the rest of the nations are Christs saints that he gathered for himself.

 

[Davy]

According to Pre-Tribers, if you merely listen to the Lord Jesus in His word, it's not enough, you'll be left behind, because you must "BELIEVE" in the blessed hope rapture doctrine to escape the fate that is exclusively prepared for the Jews, the Great Tribulation.

When Jesus hung on the Cross and said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do", well God didn't listen to His only begotten Son, no sir, even though God said "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM". Why God is going to teach those Jews a lesson they'll never forget. It's not enough the Jews went through slavery, occupation, diaspora, and genocide, God is now going for the final solution. The heck with "...to the Jew first...".

The stench of self righteous arrogance to worship a pre-tribulation "blessed hope" rapture, like a golden cow, that causes division among His body, is what God will reveal in Matthew 7:23 "And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

Pre-tribbers aren't listening to Jesus about the first one 'taken' either, because at the end of Luke 17 He showed the first one's 'taken' are to wherever the fowls are that feast on a dead "carcase" (per the Matthew 24:28 version).

Men's false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine isn't just affecting deceived Jews, it is affecting many Gentile believers also.

A Hard Thing To Understand:

One of the hardest things to understand about those on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is how they could be swayed into it when all they need do is simply heed what Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught in His Word, i.e., to study what He and His Apostles showed when the time of His coming to gather His Church will be, which is after the trib.

It is obvious that the devil's servants came up with the false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Those of us who heed what Jesus showed for when His coming will be understand this point about false ones that have crept in among the body of Christ. It's because God's Word warns us about those that creep in.

So their being deceived by those false prophets pushing the Pre-trib Rapture lie has to be by their 'choice' to listen to men, instead of heeding Jesus in His Word. Because of this, Jesus has assigned to them the "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2. It's because they refuse to receive the 'love of the Truth'.

What are some of the attributes of those who reject the 'love of the Truth'? They relegate their value system to their fleshy mind, instead of spiritual things per God's Word. They'd rather believe a flesh man standing before them that looks nice, talks nice, and presents himself as a man of God to them, regardless if that man is pushing Satan's lies from his crept in servants. And some of them won't even trust a preacher who doesn't wear one of those priestly collars that certain sects use. Their minds about the idea of Christ's Salvation is focused upon 'looks' instead of the actual Scriptures. They do not have spiritual 'eyes to see', nor spiritual 'ears to hear'.

Thus those of us in Christ that do heed what Jesus and His Apostles taught on the matter, are not to be too concerned with those on the Pre-trib Rapture lie; only that we are to warn brethren according to the Scripture Truth, regardless of whether or not they will accept what God's Word teaches on the matter. And then pray for them, for all we can do is plant seeds, God must do the watering and growing.

 

[Writer]

show mw where i said the rapture occurs twice.
It does not and never will.
When my opponent resorts to name calling you are totally out of gas.
You have no biblical case when I have shown you your doctrine is impossible.

You

show mw where i said the rapture occurs twice.
It does not and never will.
When my opponent resorts to name calling you are totally out of gas.
You have no biblical case when I have shown you your doctrine is impossible.

Your belief SPEAKS for itself. Mathew 24:29, His Second Coming, is the RAPTURE you fool. In these verses we see Him coming in the clouds with the Angels and the sound of the trumpet and then the 1st resurrection. Exactly to the tee what is described in Thesalonians.

This does not happen in secret. It does not happen as a "MYSTERY". It doesn't happen invisibly. It doesn't happen in the Pre-trib. It happens once.

You on the other hand believe in a secret thesalonians and then a Second coming thesalonians. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN TWICE. Thesalonians is fullfilled at JESUS SECOND COMING. You're not going on a honeymoon. Get over your arrogant self.

 

[Davy]

Bible is as you say easy.
Ignoring the pretrib rapture verses is also easy for you guys.
Sad

No such thing written as a pre-trib rapture. That idea is from men's doctrines, not God's Word.

Same thing with some who call it a Mid-trib rapture, which is actually the SAME idea as a Pre-trib Rapture theory, since in the middle of the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 is when the latter half 1260 day "great tribulation" actually starts.

Jesus sealed in the time of His coming and gathering of His Church, in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 perfectly aligns with. Both reveal a POST-TRIB coming by Jesus to gather His Church. And that is the view that the Christian Church had held for 1,800 years, until John Nelson Darby began preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain, which if I recall, he later recanted.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No such thing written as a pre-trib rapture. That idea is from men's doctrines, not God's Word.

Same thing with some who call it a Mid-trib rapture, which is actually the SAME idea as a Pre-trib Rapture theory, since in the middle of the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 is when the latter half 1260 day "great tribulation" actually starts.

Jesus sealed in the time of His coming and gathering of His Church, in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 perfectly aligns with. Both reveal a POST-TRIB coming by Jesus to gather His Church. And that is the view that the Christian Church had held for 1,800 years, until John Nelson Darby began preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain, which if I recall, he later recanted.

Lol You just placed the dead in Christ resurrected AFTER the gathering of rev 14:14.
Your doctrine is Kapoot.
Btw, you will never see a postrib rapture teacher bring Rev14:14 to the table.
The bible testifies against you big time.
Your other passage in mat 24 is not the rapture.
Angels instead of Jesus gather after the trib, and you are agreeing that gathering is from heaven, not earth.
You are now promoting a pretrib rapture in 2 passages,as they agree with that doctrine, not yours.
Thank you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No such thing written as a pre-trib rapture. That idea is from men's doctrines, not God's Word.

Same thing with some who call it a Mid-trib rapture, which is actually the SAME idea as a Pre-trib Rapture theory, since in the middle of the symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 is when the latter half 1260 day "great tribulation" actually starts.

Jesus sealed in the time of His coming and gathering of His Church, in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 perfectly aligns with. Both reveal a POST-TRIB coming by Jesus to gather His Church. And that is the view that the Christian Church had held for 1,800 years, until John Nelson Darby began preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain, which if I recall, he later recanted.

That idea of no ancients believing in a pretrib rapture has been debunked.
But your "condemnation before investigation" methodology has failed you once again.
Pssssst...the Catholics burned pretribbers and their "heresy writings".
But a tiny bit is preserved, and PROVES you do no research.