Pre-trib rapture!

[GISMYS_7]

Proof of the Rapture is found in the last book of the Bible. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israelites are segregated from the gentiles. Even though the focus is on believing Israelites, and later believing gentiles, they are segregated. This absolutely shows the church, believers in Jesus Christ, could not be on Earth. If the church were still on Earth during this period, you could not segregate believing Israelites from believing gentiles, for we are one body in Christ, and there's no difference between anyone who believes. We are all received in one body and received throughout faith in Jesus Christ. HL.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Proof of the Rapture is found in the last book of the Bible. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israelites are segregated from the gentiles.

To *distinguish" between nations is normal and biblical. To *segregate* them means what? Every nation in a sense is "segregated" from others because each nation has its own borders! And pagan nations can be viewed as "segregated" from the Christian Church by implication because they are separate religions. One is pagan and one is Christian.

But Israel is still viewed as connected, via *promise,* to Christianity even though they remain Jewish and non-Christian. And so, in a sense yes, they are segregated from one another. But in another sense, they are connected, being that one day Israel will join the community of Christian nations.

I agree with Dispensationalism in preserving the "Hope of Israel." But I disagree with it on the presumed Pretribulational Rapture, as well as on the idea of an "any-moment Rapture." There is nothing in the Bible about either of these 2 things.

Sorry, brother, we're apparently both Futurists, and both believers in Israel's future national restoration. But we cannot agree on "the Rapture" as you describe it. Oh well....

 

[GISMYS_7]

Reason 1: The Rapture is a signless event. Unlike the Second Coming, no signs will precede the Rapture. This is called the doctrine of imminency—that is, the Rapture is imminent; it could happen at any moment. Specifically, nothing in God’s prophetic program must take place as a prerequisite to the Rapture. Things may happen, but nothing must happen. That means we don’t know when it could happen. It could be today or years from now.

Nothing in God’s prophetic program must take place as a prerequisite to the Rapture.

Without any warning, Jesus Christ will return to rapture His saints and take them to heaven. As Christians, we are called to live prepared lives, ready to meet our Savior at any moment. DJ.

 

[Tommy Cool]

There are only three groups of people in the Bible → Jews …. Gentiles …. and Church of God (aka Christians)

There were no Christians in Jesus’s time on earth …which means the only two groups of people Jesus could have spoken to would be → Jews or Gentiles …. But we know that Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Jews)

In the church epistles (Romans through Thessalonians) Jesus,... who is now head of all things to the Church (called of God) was not addressing Jew or Gentile…. Jesus is addressing Church of God (Christians).

Any prophecy that Jesus spoke while here on earth regarding the end times, was regarding the “Day of the Lord” laid out in the book of Revelation. Some have tried to match prophecy from the gospels to that of 1Th 4 but it cannot be the same. Because Thessalonians is written to the born again “in Christ Jesus” ….and being “in Christ” did not exist until after the mystery (secret) of the one body was revealed by revelation to Paul {Rom 16:25&26} - {Eph 3:2-4} - {Col 1:25-27 & Col 2:2b &3}

1Thess 4 is directed to only those born again in Christ, both dead and alive.. as 1Th 4:14 … 1Th 4:16&17 states …. Everyone else is subject to the events of the resurrection… of the just and the unjust… And BTW the rapture is never referred to as a resurrection ….because not everyone will be dead.

In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.
You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. You will not find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace.

Neither will you find any reference of the following in the book of Revelation … → Being in/of the one body of Christ (26x) in the epistles…. Church of God (8x) in the epistles ….mystery of the 1 body (14x) in the epistles…. having or saved by Hope (32x) in the epistles…. Let that sink in, there is no hope in Revelation

But one of the more telling things that is... only seen twice in the opening and closing salutations in Revelation… is that of Grace {Rev 1:4 & Rev 22:21} …. …. However, it is used 116x in the epistles. But even removing the salutations in the epistles ….Grace is used 89x throughout the epistles.

What does all that mean ….It means that ….for some reason?????, before the events of Revelation take place … the administration (dispensation) of Grace ceases! ….along with salvation by grace, the one body, the Church of God, the mystery Jews & Gentiles fellow heirs , Christ in you /you in Christ …. No more indwelling of the spirit ….and there are no more Christians when you get to Revelation …it’s back to the other two groups of people Jews and Gentiles …the Church of God has left the building. “Thank you…. (Jesus) thank you very much”
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1Th 4:18

 

[rebuilder 454]

it truly is a pretrib rapture

 

[Scott Downey]

Where did Jesus teach the rapture?
You won't find it in the gospels.

 

[rebuilder 454]

"I used to be a pre-trib Rapture believer but then I started studying the Bible."

How many times have we heard this ridiculous nonsense.????
I would invite any postribber to post for us one verse that says anything about a post tribulation rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where did Jesus teach the rapture?
You won't find it in the gospels.

Mat 24 alone has more than one place.
mat 25 is the groom coming for the bride.
Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, but men have led you down a path of deception.

 

[Scott Downey]

There are only three groups of people in the Bible → Jews …. Gentiles …. and Church of God (aka Christians)

There were no Christians in Jesus’s time on earth …which means the only two groups of people Jesus could have spoken to would be → Jews or Gentiles …. But we know that Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Jews)

In the church epistles (Romans through Thessalonians) Jesus,... who is now head of all things to the Church (called of God) was not addressing Jew or Gentile…. Jesus is addressing Church of God (Christians).

Any prophecy that Jesus spoke while here on earth regarding the end times, was regarding the “Day of the Lord” laid out in the book of Revelation. Some have tried to match prophecy from the gospels to that of 1Th 4 but it cannot be the same. Because Thessalonians is written to the born again “in Christ Jesus” ….and being “in Christ” did not exist until after the mystery (secret) of the one body was revealed by revelation to Paul {Rom 16:25&26} - {Eph 3:2-4} - {Col 1:25-27 & Col 2:2b &3}

1Thess 4 is directed to only those born again in Christ, both dead and alive.. as 1Th 4:14 … 1Th 4:16&17 states …. Everyone else is subject to the events of the resurrection… of the just and the unjust… And BTW the rapture is never referred to as a resurrection ….because not everyone will be dead.

In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.
You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. You will not find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace.

Neither will you find any reference of the following in the book of Revelation … → Being in/of the one body of Christ (26x) in the epistles…. Church of God (8x) in the epistles ….mystery of the 1 body (14x) in the epistles…. having or saved by Hope (32x) in the epistles…. Let that sink in, there is no hope in Revelation

But one of the more telling things that is... only seen twice in the opening and closing salutations in Revelation… is that of Grace {Rev 1:4 & Rev 22:21} …. …. However, it is used 116x in the epistles. But even removing the salutations in the epistles ….Grace is used 89x throughout the epistles.

What does all that mean ….It means that ….for some reason?????, before the events of Revelation take place … the administration (dispensation) of Grace ceases! ….along with salvation by grace, the one body, the Church of God, the mystery Jews & Gentiles fellow heirs , Christ in you /you in Christ …. No more indwelling of the spirit ….and there are no more Christians when you get to Revelation …it’s back to the other two groups of people Jews and Gentiles …the Church of God has left the building. “Thank you…. (Jesus) thank you very much”
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1Th 4:18

One reason you may not find Christians in book of revelation like your suggesting is they are all killed by the beast world system.
Have you thought about that?

Personally I don't think there are no Christians on earth during the time of revelation, and the book supports that too.

 

[Scott Downey]

Mat 24 alone has more than one place.
mat 25 is the groom coming for the bride.
Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, but men have led you down a path of deception.

Let's go thru that then, post those relevant words here and let's see what it says.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 24, Jesus teaching is all about His second coming. It all flows down to that event.
Luke 17 is the same teaching.

 

[marks]

Where did Jesus teach the rapture?
You won't find it in the gospels.

Naturally Jesus did not teach on the rapture. Nor did He teach about the trumpet plagues or the bowl plagues. I wouldn't expect Him to, as the kingdom offer to Israel was then available.

Jesus didnt' teach about the sealing of the 144,000. And there are many things like that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Reason 1: The Rapture is a signless event. Unlike the Second Coming, no signs will precede the Rapture. This is called the doctrine of imminency—that is, the Rapture is imminent; it could happen at any moment. Specifically, nothing in God’s prophetic program must take place as a prerequisite to the Rapture. Things may happen, but nothing must happen. That means we don’t know when it could happen. It could be today or years from now.

Nothing in God’s prophetic program must take place as a prerequisite to the Rapture.

While I agree that there will not be anything to signal to us the rapture is about to happen, however, I think there is in fact a "prerequisite event", that being, the coming in of the fullness of the Gentiles,

Romans 11:25 KJV
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Of course, we won't necessarily know when this happens.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Without any warning, Jesus Christ will return to rapture His saints and take them to heaven. As Christians, we are called to live prepared lives, ready to meet our Savior at any moment. DJ.

What prepares us to meet our Savior? Isn't it that we've been reborn in Him?

Much love!

 

[marks]

"I used to be a pre-trib Rapture believer but then I started studying the Bible."

How many times have we heard this ridiculous nonsense.????
I would invite any postribber to post for us one verse that says anything about a post tribulation rapture.

I used to be a pre-trib rapture believer because I was taught that in church. Then I began to study the Bible. I've considered the other views, but I've come to realize that any other view makes mincemeat of the Bible. Pre-trib, that's what I think!

Much love!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Where did Jesus teach the rapture?
You won't find it in the gospels.

There's numerous things that are biblically true they Jesus did not teach during His earthly ministry.

Jesus continued His teaching ministry thru the Holy Spirit Who instructed the New Testament writers what to write.

Those who do not get this, like to throw all scripture out except for the red letters... and this is a recipe for deception.

It's kinda like the guy that loves smokin crack and claims it's not a sin because the Bible does not say anything about smoking crack as being a sin.

If you don't accept Jesus' teaching ministry thru His Apostles (NT writers), then of course you don't know anything about the catching away of the church (rapture)

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I've considered the other views, but I've come to realize that any other view makes mincemeat of the Bible. Pre-trib, that's what I think!

Apparently you missed this scripture which shows there is no pre-trib rapture... but does show pre-wrath

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).

*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)

Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.

 

[Scott Downey]

"I used to be a pre-trib Rapture believer but then I started studying the Bible."

How many times have we heard this ridiculous nonsense.????
I would invite any postribber to post for us one verse that says anything about a post tribulation rapture.

Luke 17

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Eagles are birds of prey, the people taken are taken away to destruction, not raptured.
The ones left, well they inherit the earth and rule with Christ.
Typically, some think the ones taken are the ones saved, but it is not so.


Noah was preserved on the earth, the flood came and swept away all the wicked
Lot was saved, preserved on the earth, fled Sodom, fled from the coming destruction by fire of the city.
Neither went to heaven.

Christ destroys the wicked on His return
2 Thess 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The rapture happens with Christ's return. at the coming of the Lord, not beforehand. It is also not secret, it is announced by a trumpet, shouting, so it is loud.
v17 is the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 24​

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
****************************************************************************************************************
the following is still in the future, the rapture is not secret, only the timing is secret. the rapture is loud and witnessed by all.

The Great Tribulation​

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
**************************************************
v28, the carcass eaten by eagles signifies great death and destruction of the wicked at the return of Christ. they are taken away to be consumed as in hell.
*************************************************

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
************************************************************************************
v31, return of Christ is the time of the rapture.
Christ is telling His believers what things they can experience during the time of the great tribulation.
Christ recaps the story with more details here at v36
The ones taken are the ones destroyed. The ones left inherit the earth.

**********************************************************************

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
*****************************
The timing of this is secret, but the event is experienced by all who are on the earth,
Including those God brings with Christ from heaven at His return

 

[rebuilder 454]

Luke 17

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Eagles are birds of prey, the people taken are taken away to destruction, not raptured.
The ones left, well they inherit the earth and rule with Christ.
Typically, some think the ones taken are the ones saved, but it is not so.


Noah was preserved on the earth, the flood came and swept away all the wicked
Lot was saved, preserved on the earth, fled Sodom, fled from the coming destruction by fire of the city.
Neither went to heaven.

Christ destroys the wicked on His return
2 Thess 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The rapture happens with Christ's return. at the coming of the Lord, not beforehand. It is also not secret, it is announced by a trumpet, shouting, so it is loud.
v17 is the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus used noah and lot to illustrate His coming BEFORE the flood and BEFORE Sodoms judgement.
Look in mat 24. It says BEFORE the flood.
And it flows and harmonizes that niether noah or anyone else was gathered AFTER THE FLOOD/ AFTER Sodom's judgement.
Such a vivid pattern we see God remove His people BEFORE judgement.
You are actually making a case for a prejudgement REMOVAL everytime you declare those verses, but you can not just accept it because your investment is outside of the bible.
The bible is clear on a removal prejudgement as you have unwittingly pointed out.