Marcus O'Reillius said:
Revelation 21 is after the Millennium! So the whole of the one 'seven' has been over for over a thousand years!
So how does this verse even prove the Elect are gathered up before the Great Tribulation? It doesn't. Thanks for sharing.
Revelation 21:1-8 are after the 1000 year kingdom age. Revelation 21:9-27 are before the 1000 year kingdom age.
UppsalaDragby said:
Ok, but that's still a little confusing to me because it doesn't answer the question I asked. (Take not that I'm not disagreeing with you, just looking for some clarification, because I find this topic incredibly confusing). The problem I'm having is, just as Marcus O'Reillius pointed out, Revelation 21 seems to describe events that occur after the tribulation. The fact that there are three woes and a midpoint to the tribulation doesn't seem to address that.
Vale of Tears also made the point that what you seem to be advocating is a mid-trib rapture, despite the title of the thread. What is your position concerning that?
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8
KJV
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12
KJV,
(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14
KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4
KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4
KJV
(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4
KJV
(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15
KJV
Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.
n2thelight said:
I think you timing is off,Christ returns 3 1/2 days after the two witneses are killed......
Revelation 11:11 "And after three days and an half the spirit [breath] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."
Revelation 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
Within the hour, the earthquake that is going to split the mount of Olives will take place. A way, or path will be made for Christ's children to make it back to Him.
Why would God kill 7000 men at this moment? Those are the angels of Satan will die at this time, all of them. They are the men that God will kill. Satan's time for his story telling is over, and all those fallen angels helping him will be destroyed.
The "remnant" that is of God's election will give glory to God because it is over. The tribulation, the testing, these flesh bodies, and this earth age of the flesh will be over. Friend, this is not something that is centuries into the future, but in a matter of a few years. We are living in this final generation.
Revelation 11:14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."
Remember that the first woe was the coming to earth of Satan, also called "Abaddon" in the Hebrew, and "Apollyon" in the Greek, with all his locust army to seduce the entire earth. This is what was taught in chapter nine. The first woe ended with their massive appearance on the earth that would cause the peoples of the earth to worship Satan as the Christ.
Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time.
[SIZE=18pt]Mid trib fleeing of Israel [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
(((At the middle of the tribulation the Lord will come down to help Israel escape the armies of antichrist which are under the control of the devil who has been cast to the earth)))[/SIZE]
3
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And
ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Revelation 12:13-16
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
((When the army of antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the mountain will close and swallow the army as the Red Sea swallowed the army of Eygpt))
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and
the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
((When the lamb (Lord) comes to Israel she will flee to the river ford on the Arnon River which is 1/3 of the way south on the Jordan side of the Dead Sea.))
Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest,
so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4
Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.