Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

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the_sign

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7angels said:
back to the op. i have a series of questions. are all thing predetermined by God?
Understanding predestination must go hand in hand in realizing how perfect God is.

He is without flaw, error, nor blemish of any sort, and all that He creates is perfect.

This being the week of Christ the King and the final week of the First Liturgical Year of the Judgment makes for a very special time to meditate upon that perfection in Jesus Christ, King of the Universe, which God has given to us forever.

May you all have a blessed week in such remembrance.
 

7angels

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cga said:
All things are indeed predetermined by God, yet a choice is offered to us to choose good or evil, so that then through whatever we choose God may then reward or punish. However, whatever we end up choosing, is what was predetermined by God to occur. God does not desire all to be saved, Jesus Christ does. God, the Father, has chosen a few for a salvation, and the rest for wrath, so that in each outcome he may demonstrate different attributes of himself in his own creation.

Predestination does not invalidate our need to act, no different that just because a movie has already been scripted, then the actors in the set do not need to act. Those that are are destined for salvation, have believed, have repented, have been filled with the spirit, and are full of good works, whereas those who are destined for destruction have not believed, nor have repented, nor have been filled with the spirit, and are full of works of wickedness. Each outcome was first preceded by a series of actions, all of which are part of what was predestined, not just the outcome, but every action leading to the outcome, is all predestined.
the trinity is 3 in one correct? doesn't the mean they are of one mind? so if they are of one mind then doesn't that mean they think alike? so if they think alike then Jesus, Holy Spirit, and the Father have the same desires. also doesn't the bible teach that Jesus does nothing that the Father has not told Him? doesn't the bible also teach that if you know Jesus you know the Father? so if the trinity are of one mind then how do you come up with different outcomes for each?

you say "Those that are are destined for salvation, have believed, have repented, have been filled with the spirit, and are full of good works, whereas those who are destined for destruction have not believed, nor have repented, nor have been filled with the spirit, and are full of works of wickedness. Each outcome was first preceded by a series of actions, all of which are part of what was predestined, not just the outcome, but every action leading to the outcome, is all predestined." were you not also one of those that were destined for destruction until you received salvation? doesn't the bible tell us to go out into the world and proclaim the gospel so others can hear it and repent and be saved? the bible teaches that there are those that will call Jesus Lord and will be denied by Christ saying i knew you not. so does that not prove that not all who come to Jesus will be saved? i know a christian who died at age 15 from a disease and left his body and instead of going to heaven went to hell. a long story short Jesus gave him a second chance at life. before he died he could of sworn he was going to heaven. so how do you explain it? predestined to go to hell and because of a second chance at life he is now a devoted missionary. was it predestined? if so how come every else does not have the same chance? does not Word not teach the God is not a respecter of persons but treats all the same? so why do some get a second chance at life and others don't? if God saves some and not others because they were predestined then that makes God a hypocrite and a lier. why would i want to follow such a God?

God bless
 

7angels

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the_sign said:
Understanding predestination must go hand in hand in realizing how perfect God is.
Why is understanding predestination necessary to realize how perfect God is? i have not even known what predestination was until i looked up the meaning of the word and applied it scripturally to the Word.

He is without flaw, error, nor blemish of any sort, and all that He creates is perfect.
i agree with you here this is all scriptural.

This being the week of Christ the King and the final week of the First Liturgical Year of the Judgment makes for a very special time to meditate upon that perfection in Jesus Christ, King of the Universe, which God has given to us forever.
final week of the First Liturgical Year of the Judgment i am not sure what this is atm. so i can't refute this point atm.

May you all have a blessed week in such remembrance.
you too

God bless
 

cga

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7angels said:
the trinity is 3 in one correct? doesn't the mean they are of one mind? so if they are of one mind then doesn't that mean they think alike? so if they think alike then Jesus, Holy Spirit, and the Father have the same desires. also doesn't the bible teach that Jesus does nothing that the Father has not told Him? doesn't the bible also teach that if you know Jesus you know the Father? so if the trinity are of one mind then how do you come up with different outcomes for each?

you say "Those that are are destined for salvation, have believed, have repented, have been filled with the spirit, and are full of good works, whereas those who are destined for destruction have not believed, nor have repented, nor have been filled with the spirit, and are full of works of wickedness. Each outcome was first preceded by a series of actions, all of which are part of what was predestined, not just the outcome, but every action leading to the outcome, is all predestined." were you not also one of those that were destined for destruction until you received salvation? doesn't the bible tell us to go out into the world and proclaim the gospel so others can hear it and repent and be saved? the bible teaches that there are those that will call Jesus Lord and will be denied by Christ saying i knew you not. so does that not prove that not all who come to Jesus will be saved? i know a christian who died at age 15 from a disease and left his body and instead of going to heaven went to hell. a long story short Jesus gave him a second chance at life. before he died he could of sworn he was going to heaven. so how do you explain it? predestined to go to hell and because of a second chance at life he is now a devoted missionary. was it predestined? if so how come every else does not have the same chance? does not Word not teach the God is not a respecter of persons but treats all the same? so why do some get a second chance at life and others don't? if God saves some and not others because they were predestined then that makes God a hypocrite and a lier. why would i want to follow such a God?

God bless
Jesus Christ is one with the Father in unity, but are not the same person, just as the elect are also one with God, but are not the same person either. The ways of God, the Father, are higher than our ways, and also the ways of Jesus Christ, for the Father alone is the one who predestines all things, and also knows every little detail of his own creation, such as the number of the hairs on everyone's heads, which no one else knows except him.

Mere belief does not save, but it is indeed through belief where salvation first comes. After believing, you must repent and walk blameless before God, and humble yourself by selling all your properties and possessions, to then receive the sign of the new covenant, which is the seal of the holy spirit. Unless you come to receive the holy spirit, you cannot be saved, even if you do believe. Receiving the holy spirit always comes with an outward sign, usually prophesying or speaking in a tongue. Anyone who is sealed with the holy spirit also always suffers just as the apostles and prophets of old did, and is usually also martyred, for this is the discipline of God upon those whom he loves. There are also very few that are chosen to inherit the kingdom of God, 144,000 chosen and sealed.

God shows compassion to whom he shows compassion, and mercy to whom he shows mercy. He does whatever he pleases in his own creation. He is to be feared.
 

7angels

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cga said:
Jesus Christ is one with the Father in unity, but are not the same person, just as the elect are also one with God, but are not the same person either. The ways of God, the Father, are higher than our ways, and also the ways of Jesus Christ, for the Father alone is the one who predestines all things, and also knows every little detail of his own creation, such as the number of the hairs on everyone's heads, which no one else knows except him.

how can people be in complete unity if there are more then one point of view? the bible says if you know the Son then you know the Father and if you know the Father then you know the Son. how can we see Jesus know what the Father is like if they are of 2 different minds on things? the bible says that by 2 or 3 witnesses will every word be established. so please post 2 or 3 scriptures to support what is in bold print above is only the Father alone.

Mere belief does not save, but it is indeed through belief where salvation first comes. After believing, you must repent and walk blameless before God, and humble yourself by selling all your properties and possessions, to then receive the sign of the new covenant, which is the seal of the holy spirit. Unless you come to receive the holy spirit, you cannot be saved, even if you do believe. Receiving the holy spirit always comes with an outward sign, usually prophesying or speaking in a tongue. Anyone who is sealed with the holy spirit also always suffers just as the apostles and prophets of old did, and is usually also martyred, for this is the discipline of God upon those whom he loves. There are also very few that are chosen to inherit the kingdom of God, 144,000 chosen and sealed.

again please show scriptural references concerning the words in bold print. i might be misunderstanding what you are saying so please clarify. it sounds like i need to be blameless and poor in order to receive the Holy Spirit. but according to scripture the Holy Spirit seals us upon our acceptance of Jesus and baptism of the Holy Spirit can come immediately afterwards. you receive the Holy Spirit upon being saved but when you get baptized in the Holy Spirit is when you get endowed with power from on high. baptism in the Holy Spirit is when you receive the outward signs. people baptized in the Holy Spirit are not usually suffering for Christ until they decide to accept their cross that comes with knowing Christ.

God shows compassion to whom he shows compassion, and mercy to whom he shows mercy. He does whatever he pleases in his own creation. He is to be feared

what you say is true but i believe you are misunderstanding what is meant. God shows compassion to whom he shows compassion, and mercy to whom he shows mercy. tells us that the more we are willing to put God first in our lives the more blessings, compassion, mercy, grace, and ect we will receive. God blesses everyone but those who choose to follow and obey Him are blessed more abundantly then another who serves God not at all. God treats everyone the same. He will not do something for one person and not another. the bible is full of promises for everyone but not everyone wants to fulfill the conditions necessary in order to receive them.

He is to be feared refers to reverence when you look the word up in strong's concordance. God is not meant to be feared by His people. His enemies fears Him but His children should be reverencing Him.

God bless
 

cga

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7angels said:
God bless
The elect are one with God because the elect have the spirit of God within, and as such, are of one mind with God just as Jesus Christ is one with God, as was declared,

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one-- I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:22-23 [NIV])

But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. (1 Corinthians 6:17 [NIV])

Even so, it is evident that Jesus Christ does not possess all knowledge just as the Father does, for he did not even know the hour of his own coming,

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32 [NIV])

And this is because it is the Father alone who predestines all these things to occur, and he alone possesses infinite knowledge, which is why even Jesus Christ says,

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [NIV])

The holy spirit does not come upon merely believing, for even Cornelius had not yet received the holy spirit after believing.

and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." (Acts 19:2 [NIV])

The holy spirit is given to whom God chooses, which is why even John the Baptist already had the holy spirit being in the womb,

for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. (Luke 1:15 [NIV])

And the spirit was also given to Cornelius, whom God also chose, even though Cornelius had no knowledge of the holy spirit. This is why Paul says, it is not a matter of who runs, or who is willing, but upon whom God chooses to show mercy to, that will end up being saved, and receive the seal of salvation, which is the gift of the holy spirit,

So then, it is not of the willing, nor of the running, but of God showing mercy. (Romans 9:16 [BLB])

So whoever God shows mercy to, is he who receives the holy spirit. Not all receive the mercy of God, and not all are treated the same. As God has a different purposes for all, just a fork has a different purpose than a knife, or a knife has a different purpose than a cup.

You are among those who twist the fear of God to mean "reverence to God" because you do not truly fear God. You must have fear of God, to then come to love God and no longer be afraid of him. Because the fear of God comes with understanding that just as God is love, God is also a consuming fire, that just as God shows mercy, God also shows wrath.... and so, the fear of God is then the beginning of wisdom,

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (Proverbs 9:10 [NIV])

And having fear of God will also help prevent you from sinning,

Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." (Exodus 20:20 [NIV])

There is a love, but also a severity with God. If you cannot understand this, neither can you fear him, nor can you attain wisdom.
 

StanJ

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cga said:
The elect are one with God because the elect have the spirit of God within, and as such, are of one mind with God just as Jesus Christ is one with God, as was declared,
You've taken the scripture you use to support this out of context because it was directed solely at the apostles.
The fact is, not all elect are one with God, as is amply demonstrated in Acts 5. God reconciled us to Himself while we were yet sinners and once we confess Jesus as our Lord and savior, it it's up to us to submit to his will and obey Him. He does not make us do anything.
 

7angels

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cga said:
The elect are one with God because the elect have the spirit of God within, and as such, are of one mind with God just as Jesus Christ is one with God, as was declared,

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one-- I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:22-23 [NIV])

But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. (1 Corinthians 6:17 [NIV])
these scriptures are referring to the church and Christ and not showing that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father are one. i asked for 2-3 scriptures showing the trinity as one.
Even so, it is evident that Jesus Christ does not possess all knowledge just as the Father does, for he did not even know the hour of his own coming,

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32 [NIV])

And this is because it is the Father alone who predestines all these things to occur, and he alone possesses infinite knowledge, which is why even Jesus Christ says,
​you are taking this scripture out of context. mark 13:32 has nothing to do with the Father alone being the one who predestines or if He alone is the one with infinite knowledge. what about the Holy Spirit?
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [NIV])
this is like saying that a CEO is better that anyone one else who works at the company but the truth is that a CEO holds a better position but is not necessarily a better person. the same goes for the trinity. take some time and look up offices of the trinity. it is enlightening.
The holy spirit does not come upon merely believing, for even Cornelius had not yet received the holy spirit after believing.

and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." (Acts 19:2 [NIV])
this is referring to the difference between being saved and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The holy spirit is given to whom God chooses, which is why even John the Baptist already had the holy spirit being in the womb,
you do know that the Holy Spirit is a person right? the Word teaches if we ask for the Holy Spirit it will be given to us.
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. (Luke 1:15 [NIV])
john the baptist was under the old covenant and not the new covenant which work differently. we are under the new covenant.
And the spirit was also given to Cornelius, whom God also chose, even though Cornelius had no knowledge of the holy spirit. This is why Paul says, it is not a matter of who runs, or who is willing, but upon whom God chooses to show mercy to, that will end up being saved, and receive the seal of salvation, which is the gift of the holy spirit,
you make God out to be a bigot. the God i know loves equality, and He loves all people equally and to say He would choose one person over another is a lie from the pit of hell. it is the choice of each individual person to choose their own destinies.
So then, it is not of the willing, nor of the running, but of God showing mercy. (Romans 9:16 [BLB])
rom 9:16 says "So then God’s choice is not dependent on human will, nor on human effort [the totality of human striving], but on God who shows mercy [to whomever He chooses—it is His sovereign gift]." amplified. check the meaning of those words in rom 9:16 that you posted against the strong's concordance and you will be surprised at the outcome.
So whoever God shows mercy to, is he who receives the holy spirit. Not all receive the mercy of God, and not all are treated the same. As God has a different purposes for all, just a fork has a different purpose than a knife, or a knife has a different purpose than a cup.

You are among those who twist the fear of God to mean "reverence to God" because you do not truly fear God. You must have fear of God, to then come to love God and no longer be afraid of him. Because the fear of God comes with understanding that just as God is love, God is also a consuming fire, that just as God shows mercy, God also shows wrath.... and so, the fear of God is then the beginning of wisdom,
you just said it yourself. i will put it in bold print for you. strong's uses fear #3374 to mean fear of God, reverence, piety. the word cannot mean two opposite things.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (Proverbs 9:10 [NIV])

And having fear of God will also help prevent you from sinning,

Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." (Exodus 20:20 [NIV])

There is a love, but also a severity with God. If you cannot understand this, neither can you fear him, nor can you attain wisdom.
God's kingdom does not run on fear. so why would you think God would use it to coerce you into doing what He says? a kingdom divided against itself will fall.
God bless
 

the_sign

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7angels said:
God bless
A few weeks ago I 'purged' the Winnebago in which I live with a setting spree of a Victor have-a-heart mouse trap. I managed to catch two on the first evening, Monday; one on Tuesday evening; three Wednesday evening; and it seems the last victim to date took the bait on the following Friday.

7 angels, 7 mice; but ultimately, looking back on things, only one predestination . . .
 

cga

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7angels said:
God bless
You've managed to discard every scripture I quoted in favor of your own understanding. You say, "He would choose one person over another", yet scripture clearly teaches us that he does choose,

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [NIV])

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Romans 9:13 [NIV])

"For many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14 [NIV])

This will be my last response to you, there is no purpose in arguing anything with someone who refuses to believe even more simpler truths of scripture that are plainly written,

If a wise man goes to court with a fool, there will be ranting and raving but no resolution. (Proverbs 29:9 [HCSB])

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (Matthew 7:6 [NIV])
 

n2thelight

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StanJ said:
I don't see anything here and your entire copy and paste job that says the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.
Yet you still did'nt answer my question

Why did God hate Esau?
 

StanJ

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cga said:
He did,
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Romans (9:13 [NIV])[/size]
What Paul refers to and what is not very well translated the NIV is Malachi 1:3, that is properly rendered in the NET as; “Esau was Jacob’s brother,” the Lord explains, “yet I chose Jacob and rejected Esau".

God is impassible and does not hate as humans do. Your understanding of this issue is totally mal-informed.
 

cga

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StanJ said:
What Paul refers to and what is not very well translated the NIV is Malachi 1:3, that is properly rendered in the NET as; “Esau was Jacob’s brother,” the Lord explains, “yet I chose Jacob and rejected Esau".

God is impassible and does not hate as humans do. Your understanding of this issue is totally mal-informed.
The word used by Paul in this passage is "miseo", which means "hatred, or to hate", Strong's Greek word 3404 http://biblehub.com/greek/3404.htm .You can see the interlinear for Romans 9:13 here http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-13.htm . Its usage can be seen in these other passages,

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' (Matthew 5:43 [NIV])

You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Matthew 10:22 [NIV])

So the English word translated as "hated" is not a mistranslation, nor is my understanding "mal-informed", this is the word that Paul deliberately used in reference to the passage that states that Esau was also rejected, because he was hated. Perhaps you should stop being a stubborn man and accept and believe what the scriptures teach.
 

StanJ

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cga said:
The word used by Paul in this passage is "miseo", which means "hatred, or to hate", Strong's Greek word 3404 http://biblehub.com/greek/3404.htm .You can see the interlinear for Romans 9:13 here http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-13.htm . Its usage can be seen in these other passages,

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' (Matthew 5:43 [NIV])[/size]

You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Matthew 10:22 [NIV])[/size]

So the English word translated as "hated" is not a mistranslation, nor is my understanding "mal-informed", this is the word that Paul deliberately used in reference to the passage that states that Esau was also rejected, because he was hated. Perhaps you should stop being a stubborn man and accept and believe what the scriptures teach.[/size]
Nice to see that you know how to use a Greek Lexicon but the problem is not the literal translation, it is what the Hebrew conveyed. Paul wasn't deliberately using any word, he was quoting from the Old Testament and I'm sure if he was here now he would correct your misconception but you probably still wouldn't believe him even if he said it to you in person and I can't be bothered trying to convince you otherwise. If you want to believe that God actually hates his children then you've got a lot more problems than language skills.
 

StanJ

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the_sign said:
A fairly accurate definition of the verb "to hate" is to love less.
to a certain extent I would have to agree.
J-F-B explains it as follows;
3. hated—not positively, but relatively; that is, did not choose him out to be the object of gratuitous favor, as I did Jacob (compare Lu 14:26, with Mt 10:37; Ge 29:30, 31; De 21:15, 16).
 

FHII

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the_sign said:
A fairly accurate definition of the verb "to hate" is to love less.
Ok, fine. It also means God called him profane and/or a fornicator. It also means God rejected him even though he repenented and repented with tears which telks me he was sincere.

But God still rejected him and called him a fornicator.
 

cga

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StanJ said:
Nice to see that you know how to use a Greek Lexicon but the problem is not the literal translation, it is what the Hebrew conveyed. Paul wasn't deliberately using any word, he was quoting from the Old Testament and I'm sure if he was here now he would correct your misconception but you probably still wouldn't believe him even if he said it to you in person and I can't be bothered trying to convince you otherwise. If you want to believe that God actually hates his children then you've got a lot more problems than language skills.
He does hate, hence why Paul also explains,

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:22 [NIV])

Do you suppose he loved, or hated, these vessels that he himself prepared for destruction? You have a very one sided view of God, for God is indeed love, but God is also a consuming fire,

for our "God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29 [NIV])