Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[StanJ]

He does hate, hence why Paul also explains,
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:22 [NIV])[/size]
Do you suppose he loved, or hated, these vessels that he himself prepared for destruction? You have a very one sided view of God, for God is indeed love, but God is also a consuming fire,
for our "God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29 [NIV])[/size]

Like I said, you don't understand. I suggest you learn the vernacular in the Bible before commenting on it.

 

[n2thelight]

You can't answer why He hated him,can you tell me how, from your prospective,when he had yet to be born?

 

[the_sign]

God is Perfect and All-Love.

It seems to me that the pinnacle of appreciation of the concept of predestination begins with what St. Paul wrote : "we were predestined in Christ".

Everything that God creates is perfect; He has prepared a perfect eternity for each and everyone of us.

This is the first Thursday after the fulfillment of Daniel 8:14; the temple has been cleansed.

 

[cga]

Like I said, you don't understand. I suggest you learn the vernacular in the Bible before commenting on it.

I don't need to learn the vernacular, I just need to know and believe the scriptures. Paul says God hated Esau, and that is what I trust, believe, and understand, exactly as the scriptures teach. I don't twist or ignore the scriptures to suit my own theologies. Such a stubborn old man, set in his own ways.

 

[StanJ]

I don't need to learn the vernacular, I just need to know and believe the scriptures. Paul says God hated Esau, and that is what I trust, believe, and understand, exactly as the scriptures teach. I don't twist or ignore the scriptures to suit my own theologies. Such a stubborn old man, set in his own ways.

Yes, the operative word being 'know' and in that case you obviuosly don't and you're not willing to learn.
If Jesus said love your enemies and don't hate them and the Bible says that God is love and we are told to be like God and how exactly do you figure God can hate but we can't? God does not instruct us to do the things that he does not do.

 

[cga]

Yes, the operative word being 'know' and in that case you obviuosly don't and you're not willing to learn.
If Jesus said love your enemies and don't hate them and the Bible says that God is love and we are told to be like God and how exactly do you figure God can hate but we can't? God does not instruct us to do the things that he does not do.

We are to love our enemies because the Gentiles, who were formerly enemies of the chosen people of God, are no longer enemies of God, as God has extended the opportunity of salvation to all men, whether Jew or Gentile, hence "love your enemies", in which case, the true enemies of the people of God, in which the law instructs us to "hate your enemies", are Satan and his angels, whom we are to hate. Tell me, do you love or do you hate Satan? Do you suppose God loves or hates Satan? Answer wisely.

 

[justaname]

I do not see an answer to my question. I will rephrase it since I do not feel I was clear the first time:

According to your theory YOU exegete Scripture and thru "proper" exegesis YOU form your doctrine/beliefs. But then later YOU are convinced that something in Scripture discredits your own doctrine/belief so you then change your doctrine/belief. My question is how can you ever know for sure if you have finally found the truth of Scripture or the right doctrine? If you didn't properly exegete Scripture the first time how do you know you did it properly the 2nd or 3rd or 4th time? The theory of predestination would be a good example. How do you know that 2 years from now while reading scripture you won't stumble upon 2-3 passages that destroy your belief on predestination? But then 2 years after that you find 2 passages that re-affirm your belief on predestination. How can you ever know if you are right??

This is about one of the Early Church Fathers. I hope it is able to enlighten the concept of theology:

While Augustine is commonly considered the father of Western orthodox Christianity, he never saw his own conclusions as indisputable. In response to a letter that questioned ideas from one of his books, Augustine distinguished his own thoughts from those of Scripture’s binding authority. He described his theology as a work in progress, and he believed that since the goal was truthful reflection on God, he should constantly be open to revision. If he saw error in one of his conclusions, such a “mistake is not to be regarded with surprise or grief, but rather forgiven, and made the occasion for congratulating me, not, of course, on having erred, but on having renounced an error.”

Kapic, Kelly M. (2012-08-05). A Little Book for New Theologians: Why and How to Study Theology (Kindle Locations 632-634). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[StanJ]

We are to love our enemies because the Gentiles, who were formerly enemies of the chosen people of God, are no longer enemies of God, as God has extended the opportunity of salvation to all men, whether Jew or Gentile, hence "love your enemies", in which case, the true enemies of the people of God, in which the law instructs us to "hate your enemies", are Satan and his angels, whom we are to hate. Tell me, do you love or do you hate Satan? Do you suppose God loves or hates Satan? Answer wisely.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.
Ephesians 6:10-17
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
1 Peter 5:7-9
Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

 

[cga]

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.
Ephesians 6:10-17
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
1 Peter 5:7-9
Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

I'm glad you answered with scripture and not your own stubborn words.

 

[n2thelight]

Yes, the operative word being 'know' and in that case you obviuosly don't and you're not willing to learn.
If Jesus said love your enemies and don't hate them and the Bible says that God is love and we are told to be like God and how exactly do you figure God can hate but we can't? God does not instruct us to do the things that he does not do.

Soooo,does God hate or love satan?

 

[StanJ]

Soooo,does God hate or love satan?

I suggest you study what it means for God to be impassible. The Hebrew language is didn't have the concept of impassible when the Bible was written so the closest word they had was hate but obviously as the Bible teaches us not to hate then it is not going to advocate that God does something he commands us not to do.

 

[cga]

I suggest you study what it means for God to be impassible. The Hebrew language is didn't have the concept of impassible when the Bible was written so the closest word they had was hate but obviously as the Bible teaches us not to hate then it is not going to advocate that God does something he commands us not to do.

So we'll just presume that you love Satan then, since as you say, we must love everyone. And here I thought wisdom came with old age. Tisk tisk tisk.

 

[StanJ]

So we'll just presume that you love Satan then, since as you say, we must love everyone. And here I thought wisdom came with old age. Tisk tisk tisk.

are you also looking to get kicked off of this forum?

 

[brokentuningfork]

I love these kinds of discussions! Of course God is sovereign and had everything planned out from the beginning. He is the author of the story it's been written since eternity past. What kind of God would he be if he didn't see that Adam would sin b4hand and have no plan made. He already had the plan to crucify Jesus before he said let there be light. He is the author who calls the end from the beginning and who also, inunderstandibly to our puny minds is at the end and the beginning as we speak because he exists outside of time in eternity. Isn't that fascinating?! All those things that are happening in the future in the book of revelation, He is there already !!! even though we as a planet haven't reached that point yet haha.

Now another point that I'd like to make is that if God is sovereign than he surely knew that us christians would be jousting back and forth on this issue and is sovereignly allowing all of us to exist in the church even the ones who disagree theologically. Don't you think if God wanted to he would wipe out all Armenian belief? No he doesn't do it and if you are a calvinist then you must concede that God is the one allowing them to remain in this belief. I have an idea as to why I think he does this but it's not really that important.

Praise GOD!!!

 

[StanJ]

@brokentuningfork

You're absolutely right, God is indeed Sovereign and knows all things, but the problem is we don't know, and despite having given us his written word, we still don't know and we are very limited in what we do know.
This is why the Bible instructs us to seek wisdom in God's word and to study it so that we may gain wisdom and understand what his word is telling us and what it isn't telling us. God's written word is the only arbiter we have in knowing God, so it must be rightly divided so that we know what doctrines to follow and what doctrines not to follow. 1John 4:1 & 2 Tim 2:15
God does not judge us while we live on this earth, that will be the responsibility of Jesus At The Great White Throne judgement.

 

[Born_Again]

So we'll just presume that you love Satan then, since as you say, we must love everyone. And here I thought wisdom came with old age. Tisk tisk tisk.

That was a bit asinine.

 

[cga]

That was a bit asinine.

As opposed to the man who cannot admit that God hates Satan, which would thus prove that God does indeed hate beings in his own creation that he himself created? Common people.

 

[StanJ]

As opposed to the man who cannot admit that God hates Satan, which would thus prove that God does indeed hate beings in his own creation that he himself created? Common people.

What I choose to do is recognize that God is not subject to our base human emotions and that when we try to drag God down to what we understand, then in my opinion that is tantamount to blaspheming who God is because he is definitely not like the so-called common people that you refer to.
He is The Great "I Am".
However if there is somebody that you can probably relate to with all your human base emotions, that would be the enemy we call Satan. He probably hates God more than anything but I am more than assured that God does not worry or give Satan more attention than he's worth or due.

 

[cga]

What I choose to do is recognize that God is not subject to our base human emotions and that when we try to drag God down to what we understand, then in my opinion that is tantamount to blaspheming who God is because he is definitely not like the so-called common people that you refer to.
He is The Great "I Am".
However if there is somebody that you can probably relate to with all your human base emotions, that would be the enemy we call Satan. He probably hates God more than anything but I am more than assured that God does not worry or give Satan more attention than he's worth or due.

:wacko:

 

[brokentuningfork]

At least we are talking about theology and not something else that is worldly and pointless right? Guys let's not bicker, my question is this: does not having the perfect theology make someone not a christian? Please read that question again. Because if it's true then we are all going to hell because no one had perfect theology except Jesus. When I became a Christian I didn't believe that Jesus was God, but over time I came to accept it because of the scriptures and my own maturing in faith. A question now, at that moment in the past when i didn't believe that Jesus was God yet I believed he was my Saviour, if I had died then, would I go to hell? Tough question. I was saved and God was growing me slowly like a tree, like everything he grows, it's always slow and true. Look around you at anything in nature that grows.

If someone doesn't completely agree with you theologically you don't need to flip out and start looking for proof they are not christian, leave room to believe that God has not matured them there yet.And I'm not saying you can never say someone is a false christian but you really need a lot of proof to do that. It's good to have these conversations and yes it's good to jest and argue sometimes but we as Christians cannot let it get out of hand, We will bring shame to the Lord who died for his bride when outsiders see us doing that. Yes teach, but be patient. Look at how patient Jesus was with his Disciples, he was with them 3 years and he taught them and taught them and taught them and after all that time just before he died they still didn't understand who he really was! lol

On another note I do have a question for Stan because this is a very interesting conversation. When you are talking about God and saying that He can only love and not hate are you suggesting that God has no control over some aspects of his nature and character? Are you saying that God cannot hate evil? Almost like it's something he can't choose to do?