Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[StanJ]

At least we are talking about theology and not something else that is worldly and pointless right? Guys let's not bicker, my question is this: does not having the perfect theology make someone not a christian? Please read that question again. Because if it's true then we are all going to hell because no one had perfect theology except Jesus. When I became a Christian I didn't believe that Jesus was God, but over time I came to accept it because of the scriptures and my own maturing in faith. A question now, at that moment in the past when i didn't believe that Jesus was God yet I believed he was my Saviour, if I had died then, would I go to hell? Tough question. I was saved and God was growing me slowly like a tree, like everything he grows, it's always slow and true. Look around you at anything in nature that grows.

If someone doesn't completely agree with you theologically you don't need to flip out and start looking for proof they are not christian, leave room to believe that God has not matured them there yet.And I'm not saying you can never say someone is a false christian but you really need a lot of proof to do that. It's good to have these conversations and yes it's good to jest and argue sometimes but we as Christians cannot let it get out of hand, We will bring shame to the Lord who died for his bride when outsiders see us doing that. Yes teach, but be patient. Look at how patient Jesus was with his Disciples, he was with them 3 years and he taught them and taught them and taught them and after all that time just before he died they still didn't understand who he really was! lol

On another note I do have a question for Stan because this is a very interesting conversation. When you are talking about God and saying that He can only love and not hate are you suggesting that God has no control over some aspects of his nature and character? Are you saying that God cannot hate evil? Almost like it's something he can't choose to do?

One thing we can't do for sure is live in the world of IF. It is useless to speculate what would have happened if you hadn't have done this or that or did. The point is that you are where you are right now.
The Bible says 'God is Love', and if you want to know what that is, the closest you'll get is identified in 1st Corinthians 13. Just because God can do everything doesn't mean he will do everything but I have no doubt that if he wanted to he could hate, but the point is the Bible shows us that God tells us not to hate and God is not duplicitous and he would not tell us not to do something that he himself wanted or would do. God could have made a perfect world in Genesis 1 without any chance of sin, but that's not what he did. some may believe he made a mistake but I personally don't. I believe God knew exactly what he was doing even though I don't understand why he did it and even today there are very many mysteries about God I still don't get it but it doesn't stop me from believing and the fact that he is the very essence of love, and that essence has no malice of forethought, nor is he reactionary.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Who told you that you were naked?" points right to satan.

 

[the_sign]

. . . because this is a very interesting conversation.

Are you sure?

http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t106-century-vi-93

 

[bbyrd009]

At least we are talking about theology and not something else that is worldly and pointless right? Guys let's not bicker, my question is this: does not having the perfect theology make someone not a christian? Please read that question again. Because if it's true then we are all going to hell because no one had perfect theology except Jesus. When I became a Christian I didn't believe that Jesus was God, but over time I came to accept it because of the scriptures and my own maturing in faith. A question now, at that moment in the past when i didn't believe that Jesus was God yet I believed he was my Saviour, if I had died then, would I go to hell? Tough question. I was saved and God was growing me slowly like a tree, like everything he grows, it's always slow and true. Look around you at anything in nature that grows.

If someone doesn't completely agree with you theologically you don't need to flip out and start looking for proof they are not christian, leave room to believe that God has not matured them there yet.And I'm not saying you can never say someone is a false christian but you really need a lot of proof to do that. It's good to have these conversations and yes it's good to jest and argue sometimes but we as Christians cannot let it get out of hand, We will bring shame to the Lord who died for his bride when outsiders see us doing that. Yes teach, but be patient. Look at how patient Jesus was with his Disciples, he was with them 3 years and he taught them and taught them and taught them and after all that time just before he died they still didn't understand who he really was! lol

On another note I do have a question for Stan because this is a very interesting conversation. When you are talking about God and saying that He can only love and not hate are you suggesting that God has no control over some aspects of his nature and character? Are you saying that God cannot hate evil? Almost like it's something he can't choose to do?

nice.

seems to be that a physical plane, where God had predetermined every move on the chessboard, would be a pretty pointless place. I heard a good blurb for that:
"We might know that it will rain, and be wrong, whereas God would know that it might rain, and be right." Which i mangled, if i can find it i'll return.

 

[cga]

nice.

seems to be that a physical plane, where God had predetermined every move on the chessboard, would be a pretty pointless place. I heard a good blurb for that:
"We might know that it will rain, and be wrong, whereas God would know that it might rain, and be right." Which i mangled, if i can find it i'll return.

God causes it to rain, that's why he also knows if it will rain. Without God, there would not only be no existence of anything, but also no continual movement of matter either. Nothing occurs independently of God, such as rain, sunshine, or even the smallest movement of speck of dust. Just like your arm does not move on its own unless you will it to move, so is the movement of absolutely every atom in creation, from all the complex chemical reactions going on in your body to keep your body alive, to the gaseous combustions of all the countless stars in the heaven that he causes to bring forth light upon the earth. The sheer magnitude of everything he created and how he keeps it in constant motion according to his will is just an expression of the sheer magnitude of the power of God. Hence why we have scriptures like these that give us a glimpse to the works of God,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

or you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ (Acts 17:28 [ESV])

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? (Matthew 6:26 [NIV])

Do you not understand? Do you not see? Without having an understanding of predestination and also God's causation of everything in creation, you cannot really understand the depth of the power of God, and as a result, you will lack awe of God, you will lack understanding of God, you will lack wisdom of God, you will lack belief, and will also lack fear of God. This is why a scripture like this boggles your mind, because you simply just don't understand his power, nor his ultimate purpose in his predetermination and causation of evil as well,

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [KJV])

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:22 [NIV])

 

[bbyrd009]

equally hideous interpretation, imo.

I don't need to learn the vernacular, I just need to know and believe the scriptures. Paul says God hated Esau,

wadr that is not true, and you might go look again, even the Queen gets that one right.

"Esau I have hated..."

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you sure?

http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t106-century-vi-93

"Being resurrected one sees as Christ sees : living in the eternal future, looking back on things : seeing from the eternal beglnning."

"Understand I AM"

 

[shnarkle]

All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])
The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])
For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal. (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [NIV])

As such, it is in God that all live, exist, and even move,

for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ (Acts 17:28 [ESV])

Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth powerful plagues against Egypt,

"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])
Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])
And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

And also demonstrate his love,

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])
Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of
the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

This is also why the kingdom given to the chosen, or even the lake of fire where the wicked are thrown into, are all prepared by God, because what God has brought forth into existence is also staged and prepared for future times he has appointed,

And because God determines everything to be is why God has also staged and prepared what will come to be,

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (Matthew 25:34 [NIV])
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41 [NIV])
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." (Mark 10:40 [NIV])

"Ay gar eu piptusin oi dios kuboi" I don't know where I read this but it's been etched in my brain ever since I saw it. It emphatically says "the dice of God are always loaded".

 

[the_sign]

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

This process seemingly eroded, however, through the course of time unto direct appointment and the further manifestation of the mystery of iniquity, to such an extent that the two most previous successors to the apostleship of Peter (St. Peter) as reported in the mainstream media have not been the real successors as per the prophecy of St. Malachy as regards the Vicars of Christ (Pontificates) preceding Christ's Second Coming.

Seemingly Satan's ultimate foil upon an unbelieving populace.

http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/t185-century-v-quatrain-92.

So has the same iniquity come to be made manifest in the tyranny of the electoral college which seeks to nullify the people's choice as regards public election in making not only the false claim that Donald Trump is the President of the United States, but also that Hilary Clinton would be by popular vote, when in actuality the nation is only protected via my standing two counts of obstruction of justice against the betraying population which more than robs me than blesses; and this standing obstruction has been since the spring of 2013 A.D.

 

[bbyrd009]

Seems to me you only invite sedition with that, as well as denying Scripture, which tells us that a country's leaders are chosen by God.

 

[the_sign]

They still are, except that this time you got caught trying to blow him away with a sawed-off shotgun and a pack of lies.

 

[Born_Again]

They still are, except that this time you got caught trying to blow him away with a sawed-off shotgun and a pack of lies.

What does that even mean??? Back on topic, folks.

 

[bbyrd009]

They still are, except that this time you got caught trying to blow him away with a sawed-off shotgun and a pack of lies.

ya, i can't relate this to any of the preceding either, sorry.

 

[the_sign]

What does that even mean???

It means you're trying to load the dice in your favor.

 

[shnarkle]

On another note I do have a question for Stan because this is a very interesting conversation. When you are talking about God and saying that He can only love and not hate are you suggesting that God has no control over some aspects of his nature and character? Are you saying that God cannot hate evil? Almost like it's something he can't choose to do?

I'm not speaking for Stan, but I do have something to contribute. God has total control over his nature and character; they are one and the same. God does not have to hate evil. The love of God is agony and excruciating pain for Satan; it is wrath to Satan. I don't recall who said this, but it's as if the only thing keeping Satan going are the most beautiful, blissful, joyous words of God echoing in his mind, telling him to go to hell.

God doesn't tell anyone to go to hell, but his holiness, and love, are like an acid to those who are evil. As C.S. Lewis put it, the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

 

[shnarkle]

[background=#fdfeff]and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." (Acts 19:2 [NIV])[/size][/background]

Paul taught that no one could believe without the enabling power of the holy spirit. These men could not have questioned the existence of the holy spirit and Paul would have rebuked them if they had. The reference can only be to the promised gifts of the holy spirit.

 

[shnarkle]

He does hate, hence why Paul also explains,

[background=#fdfeff]What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:22 [NIV])[/size][/background]

Do you suppose he loved, or hated, these vessels that he himself prepared for destruction? You have a very one sided view of God, for God is indeed love, but God is also a consuming fire,

[background=#fdfeff]for our "God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29 [NIV])[/size][/background]

I think the answer to this dilemma may be found in the parable of the wheat and chaff. The chaff is what is gathered up and burned while the wheat is gathered into the barn. Where was the chaff prior to being separated from the wheat? It was what was encapsulating the wheat itself. Jesus says to "deny yourself". Perhaps he's saying to see that the chaff isn't the wheat. Perhaps he's saying that we need to see that what we see as ourselves really isn't who we are; we need to deny that because regardless of how we look at ourselves we must deny ourselves. If we choose to identify with ourselves then we are identifying with what is going to be consumed by that fire.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think the answer to this dilemma may be found in the parable of the wheat and chaff. The chaff is what is gathered up and burned while the wheat is gathered into the barn. Where was the chaff prior to being separated from the wheat? It was what was encapsulating the wheat itself. Jesus says to "deny yourself". Perhaps he's saying to see that the chaff isn't the wheat. Perhaps he's saying that we need to see that what we see as ourselves really isn't who we are; we need to deny that because regardless of how we look at ourselves we must deny ourselves. If we choose to identify with ourselves then we are identifying with what is going to be consumed by that fire.

i am seeing that this is a different concept from "wheat and tares," hmm.

 

[shnarkle]

i am seeing that this is a different concept from "wheat and tares," hmm.

It works on that level as well. Tares cannot become wheat, wolves cannot become sheep, what is flesh is flesh, what is spirit is spirit. chaff doesn't look like chaff until it has been winnowed.