Predestination or "Free Will?"

[Purity]

As I side note, the title of this forum is not very accurate. Predestination is not contrary to free will. A more accurate title would be "Unconditional Predestination or 'Free Will?'" Those in the free will camp certainly hold to predestination, but it is a conditional predestination not an unconditional one.

Well said!

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I did not qualify on what basis he was lost - only that he was lost.

Does the same Scripture speak of others being lost?

How sayest thou?

No you didn't qualify on what basis he was lost - but you inferred- and that may be to your advantage. But given the tenor of the conversation it is safely concluded you were 'sporting'. Your second question is already answered, as you already know.

What dispensationalist church do you go to?

As I side note, the title of this forum is not very accurate. Predestination is not contrary to free will. A more accurate title would be "Unconditional Predestination or 'Free Will?'" Those in the free will camp certainly hold to predestination, but it is a conditional predestination not an unconditional one.

Then the onus is on you to prove from scripture that "Predestination isn't contrary to free will". So, present your case.

Secondly, as Angelina stated and I've been harping on for some time since I came to this site and such topics come up. 'Free will' has to be defined scripturally and not experimentally.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Many different denominations argue for both camps, but what does Scripture say?

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10-11

If this is God's assessment of the human race, how then can anyone say they have "free will?' It is an impossibility!

John 6:44 along with the prayer of the Lord Jesus, which can be found in John Chapter 17 declared that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

Is "free will" biblical?

What say you?

In Christ.

If God choses some for heaven and the rest for hell, That would make Him a respecter of people, So your god is a sinner.

My God, The Heavenly Father, Says salvation is for the "Whosoever believes".
Jesus said if He is lifted up, He will draw, "ALL MEN" to Him, "ALL MEN, means all people. But the people have free choice as to accept or reject.

The Bible has only one Gospel but divided into two parts. The Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is filled with ceremonial laws, in that,,the people had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their sins. While in the New Testament side it is by grace through faith. Ultimately, whether we lived in the Old or New Testament side made no difference. There is only one salvation plan and one sacrifice which was the Lord Jesus. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8. If this was not true how did the old testament believers become saved, since Christ had not gone to the cross as yet? As a matter of fact, God not only named those He planned to save, but He also chose,elected, and predestined them to salvation before He created the world.

Totally. When God saves an individual He gives him a brand new soul and he becomes a new creature. Only in this state does he seek after God..

I beg to differ, predestination have everything to do with 2 Peter 3:9. We must qualify the word "any." In the context of 2 Peter 3:9 it does not mean each and every, but refers to believers. We can paraphrase it this way, ...not willing that any believer should perish. Jesus said, all that the Father giveth Him will come to Him...and of all who come to Him He will have lost none of them.

You are very welcome.

Stop twisting 2 Pet 3: 9, 1 Tim 4: 10 say God is "the saviour of all men", And those who believe will recive salvation.

If you had the love of God in you for one minute, You would know that God wouldn't chose one and reject the other.

 

[Angelina]

Getting back to the concept of what free will is...could it be considered as an alternative choice? :huh: An example could be that of Eve and the serpent. God told them not to eat of the tree of knowledge, of good and evil. That was the standard or rule which he set for them while they lived in the garden. They would have probably lived in the garden for many years without even looking or going near that tree until the serpent beguiled her. Genesis 3:4-6. The alternative choice being that Eve considered that the fruit was pleasant and could make one wise like God. Even though she knew that they would die if they ate from that tree. The information presented to her by the serpent was enough for her to believe him. She therefore made a decision based on what she already knew against what she was being fed and she acted upon it ...the rest is history. So now we look from the other end of the spectrum where we find ourselves as non- believer's who have heard the word of God or may have had a friend tell us of their testimony....the key concept of salvation is to confess, believe and receive. Very similar to Eve's predicament accept it's a reversal. Just my thoughts here... :huh: The choice is still our own, as it was for Eve...

Considering again - I do not think that the idea of Predestination vs Free Will is a correct concept but rather Gods sovereignty vs Free will and Predestination vs Individual Salvation by faith alone....

Shalom!

 

[daq]

Is there already a thread where all of the "predestination" passages are laid out?

 

[HiddenManna]

I think one could also consider that the heart of every false religion is based upon "free will" and the deception that man has the ability within his own "will" to "know good and evil" and to choose and do by his own "will" that which he judges to be right. Satanism is based upon the "will" of man, "do what thou wilt" all comes from the lie that satan told to man. "You can be as God, knowing good and evil".

This is where I believe Calvin has it 100% correct? Man is utterly currupt "NOTHING GOOD LIVES IN THE FLESH" .
"NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE" "NONE UNDERSTANDETH" The whole premise that man can know righteousness and choose to do that righteousness, is just a lie of satan.

 

[Angelina]

Hi daq,
I was really trying to define the term "free Will" rather than predestination...

Hi HM.
Calvinism will never be 100% correct because Calvinism is a theory based on man's interpretation of the bible. We can say that about Arminianism as well as any other biblical theory... :huh: Their biblical interpretation of the bible based on logic and reasoning, is either believed or rejected...

Shalom

 

[HiddenManna]

Hi daq,
I was really trying to define the term "free Will" rather than predestination...

Hi HM.
Calvinism will never be 100% correct because Calvinism is a theory based on man's interpretation of the bible. We can say that about Arminianism as well as any other biblical theory... :huh: Their biblical interpretation of the bible based on logic and reasoning, is either believed or rejected...

Shalom

Thank you Angelina, I was careful to point out the issue in which Calvin and I agree, and I believe is made most clear in the scriptures.

 

[Purity]

Hi daq,
I was really trying to define the term "free Will" rather than predestination...

Hi HM.
Calvinism will never be 100% correct because Calvinism is a theory based on man's interpretation of the bible. We can say that about Arminianism as well as any other biblical theory... :huh: Their biblical interpretation of the bible based on logic and reasoning, is either believed or rejected...

Shalom

Angelina,

Have you tested this theory?

In your opinion which of the two could you forgo?

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. (Joh 4:24)

Purity

 

[Angelina]

both...

 

[HiddenManna]

I would point out your own use of the scriptures? 1 Cor 1:18 The Cross is foolishness to those who think they have "free-will" for it declares that a man must die to his own sense of right and wrong, his own life, and live according to the life and will of Him who was raised from the dead. This is by the Spirit of God, and not the "free will" of man. For all such "free-will" must be crucified at His Cross, and all confidence in the "old Man" must be put to death. Free-will is not the message of the Cross, death to ones own will is the message of the Cross.

 

[Angelina]

The word is "perishing" not "free will" please do not confuse perishing with free will nor apply your personal interpretation to this verse. The message of the cross is for all mankind. Some will believe and receive that message and some will not. I have led hundreds of people to the cross that brings salvation. That is why I have this sig...PS: I do not know what you are on about.... :huh:

 

[domenic]

Predestination or "Free Will?"

I am a human soul. I worship God as a human. I am a sinner, I worship God as a human sinner. I am not a spirit. I do not worship God as a spirit. I did not chose God, God chooses who he wants.
God knows everything I do before I do it…does that mean my life is predestined? That I have no free will? No. God has the power to see into the future from before my birth, to beyond my death. He does not plan what I am going to do in advance, yet he knows.
I have the free will to do as I want. What I eat contributes to my physical health. What I think contributes to my heart condition. It is I alone who can build a good heart, or a bad heart. My emotions are bound up in my heart, and is as I have made it. Sometimes I put good thoughts into my heart, bad other times. At present I still carry death within my physical body. It is why I age, and will die. Jesus has made the sacrifice that will free me from Adams sin of death. If my heart condition is deemed good when Jesus returns, I will be resurrected to life as a human. If not, I will be dust.
How do I see Christians? Christians stumble as many times as non-Christians…the difference is, Christians keep getting up, and try again, and again to have a good heart for the living God. The non-Christian lives for their own pleasure.
I am a living soul, and God has given me free will.

 

[Wormwood]

Then the onus is on you to prove from scripture that "Predestination isn't contrary to free will". So, present your case.

Ariminians have never argued against the concept of predestination. It is obviously a biblical concept. The problem is that often it is infused with Calvinist ideas of sovereignty which is not synonymous with predestination.

The Greek word for predestination is proorizo. Orizo means to "to limit, fix or determine" and pro means "prior, or before." Thus it means to determine beforehand or foreordain. Thus predestination is God's predetermination to do something or cause something beforehand. The English word "predestine" which carries the nuance of final destiny or pre establishing a final state of something which is not precisely what proorizo means although some of its uses are in context of personal destinies.

In terms of an Arminian understanding of predestination, there are different concepts. First, predestination often carries with it God's predetermined purposes for a person or people group toward service. Many of the references in Scripture of predestination have to do with God's plan to use someone or a group of people to serve him. Cyrus was predestined to serve God, but this does not have anything to do with his salvation. The same is true for Pharaoh, and Israel (which seems to be Paul's point in Romans 9). Just because God predestined someone to serve him does not mean he predestined their salvation. Just because Israel was God's chosen people to serve him did not mandate their salvation, but rather, many "stumbled over the stumbling stone."

For Arminians, God's predestination is based on foreknowledge. God's predestination does not override human freedom, but is based on his unlimited foreknowledge of the future. For instance, Judas did not betray Jesus because he was chosen to do so, but he was chosen because God foreknew that he would betray Jesus. Both are views of predestination, but one is based on human freedom whereas the other is not.

In terms of predestination for salvation, Arminians do not all agree. There are two views on the matter. Some see God's predestination for salvation referring to a group. God predetermines the conditions of salvation and the rewards of the saved. As some would argue, "God predestines the plan, not the man." However, others (like Arminius) believed in individual predestination. However, this predestination is based on foreknowledge, not on a view of God that arbitrarily chooses some to save and others to condemn as some envision predestination. Thus, God does not predetermine who will believe, but the destiny of believers based on his foreknowledge of those individuals.

So, if predestination is understood in many places as a predetermined plan for service (not salvation) and a foreknowledge of those who will meet God's predermined requirements for salvation, then it is a far cry from the predestination of Calvinism. Both believe God to predetermine events, actions and God's purposes beforehand, but one works out of free will and God's sovereign purposes based on foreknowledge, while the other on a view that God causes all actions. The word itself could mean either. Thus both Arminians and Calvinists believe in predestination, but understand it very differently. This quote sums up the issue nicely:

This, then, is the end or goal of predestination: "our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23 NASB). "This is the only predestination taught in these passages," says Kirk; and trying to make them teach "the predestination of some to be converted, is most hopeless indeed." Rather, we find in them that the believer "is predestinated to stand in the glorified body of the resurrection, and to share the glory of his blessed Lord. This is the doctrine of predestination as taught in the Bible." In other words, God predestines believers to go to heaven, just as he predestines unbelievers to go to hell. But he does not predestine anyone to become and remain a believer or to become and remain an unbeliever. This choice is made by each person, and as foreknown by God it is the factor that conditions the predestination of an individual’s eternal destiny.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

I was pointing out that because Jesus could choose to accept His fathers will or not then free will is possible. If free will is possible then predestination cannot mean that we have no choice. People get tied up in the intellectual knot of "am I predesitinate to go to hell?" That, at least, is not what predestination means.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[In Christ]

To all concerned

Two or three days ago I posted a response in the Christian Forum Community on another thread entitled "Can you prove this?"

I will copy and paste it here (with an edited version) because t believe it will shed some light on the subject at hand.

[SIZE=12pt]For us to understand the meaning of predestination and free will (which many have misunderstood), we have to go all the way back to the beginning to the Garden of Eden.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Adam as we know was created a perfect being (after creation, God said everything was good) and as long as Adam obeyed God he could live forever. Not only was Adam perfect but he was also given the “spirit” of Jesus which is an essential ingredient by which he could live forever. Then the test came and the rest is history. Why a perfect being would disobey God I have no idea but he did. Adam not only died physically but spiritually as well, that is, God also took back the “spirit” of Jesus from him. The condition of the rest of mankind is altogether different from that of Adam because, after the fall, each and every person that is to be born into this world was tainted with Adam’s sin and became subject to physical as well as spiritual death (I Corinthians 15:22).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thus, man had to be regenerated (Titus 3:5). Regeneration or “regenesis” means “to have a new beginning” and the Greek word “anothin” means “born again” or “from above” which is found in John Chapter 3. But for anyone to become “born again” God must first elect (choose) that person to be predestinated to salvation and God did that before He created the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2Thessalonians 2:13). In other words, God had obligated Himself to save the elect He had chosen before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). Christ had to come in the fullness of time to restore to God’s elect that which Adam lost, which was, Spiritual life.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]We read in Romans 3:10-11: “there are none righteous and there are none that seek after God.” If this is God’s assessment of the human race, how then can anyone say he has “free will” to choose for God? This is impossibility! Or, we read in John 6:44: “no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.” The word “can” is transliterated as “having no power.” Thus, the passage would also read (which is biblical to do): “no man has the power to come to Jesus unless he was being drawn by the Father.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]On the other hand, there are those who read Deuteronomy 30: 19 and say: “Aha, there it is in black and white that we are given a choice of life or death,” or, they read of the account of the jailer in Philippi who asked the disciples what can he do to be saved? Unbeknown to these people, they do not see that they are spiritually dead. A dead person has no life in himself just like the dry bones of Ezekiel 37:1-4. Man can choose what time to wake up in the morning, what color shoes to wear, or what to eat, etc., but is incapable to choose for God unless God draws him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]THE RAISING OF LAZARUS[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The best illustration the Bible has offered concerning “free will” is in the raising of Lazarus. Prior to going to the tomb Jesus told Martha, “I Am the resurrection and the life.” So we find Jesus where Lazarus laid and cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus come forth!” Can Lazarus hear the command of Jesus? No! Lazarus was dead. But he did come forth. What had to have happened? Jesus had to qualify him and give him life to respond! Jesus reached into the tomb to give him life.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As Lazarus was physically dead so are we spiritually dead (impossible for us to understand spiritual things). As Lazarus was physically deaf so are we spiritually deaf (our ears are dull in hearing the true Gospel). As Lazarus was physically blind so are we spiritually blind (we cannot see the truths of the Bible). As Lazarus was physically closed lip so are we spiritually dumb (we are incapable in speaking spiritual things).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]There are no accidentals or incidentals in Scripture. God is the Author of the Bible and the Ultimate Authority![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]So we see in the illustration of the raising of Lazarus that Scripture does not teach “free will.” There are only apparent scripture texts that are suggested and even then, they must be read in light of the whole Bible. Did Lazarus make any contribution so that he can live again or had a choice to tell Jesus not to resurrect him? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]We ought to let the Holy Spirit and the Bible lead us in all truths and lean not in our own understanding. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It is man that teaches “free will” because it makes him “feel” good that he can somehow contribute to his salvation. To confess Jesus, to believe in Jesus, to have faith in Jesus, to say the sinner’s prayer, to be baptized, and the like, are all works that man performs and they are in violation of [/SIZE]Ephesians 2:9[SIZE=12pt]. And note what God had to say in [/SIZE]Ezekiel 36:24-30[SIZE=12pt], God is the prime mover and not man.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The wages of sin is death declares Scripture. We come under the wrath of God on our own account. Therefore, God does not predestines anyone to fall away or to commit sin, however, it is true that nothing in this world that happens without God not knowing about it or not have His hand in it (Ps. 37:23-24; Pr. 16:9; Jer. 10:23;Rev. 22:11). God is a Holy God and man is the sinner.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]We ought to ask the Holy Spirit in prayer to give us wisdom and to open our spiritual eyes to truths as we read Scripture, and to follow the rules and principles God set forth in order to understand the deeper meaning hidden in His Word:[/SIZE]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. I Corinthians 2:13


But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. The term "testament" can be tranliterated as parable. Thus, the whole Bible becomes a parable because it consists of the Old and New Testaments.

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

[SIZE=12pt]1. But for anyone to become “born again” God must first elect (choose) that person to be predestinated to salvation and God did that before He created the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2Thessalonians 2:13). In other words, God had obligated Himself to save the elect He had chosen before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2. We read in Romans 3:10-11: “there are none righteous and there are none that seek after God.” If this is God’s assessment of the human race, how then can anyone say he has “free will” to choose for God? This is impossibility! Or, we read in John 6:44: “no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.” The word “can” is transliterated as “having no power.” Thus, the passage would also read (which is biblical to do): “no man has the power to come to Jesus unless he was being drawn by the Father.”[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]3. The best illustration the Bible has offered concerning “free will” is in the raising of Lazarus. Prior to going to the tomb Jesus told Martha, “I Am the resurrection and the life.” So we find Jesus where Lazarus laid and cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus come forth!” Can Lazarus hear the command of Jesus? No! Lazarus was dead. But he did come forth. What had to have happened? Jesus had to qualify him and give him life to respond! Jesus reached into the tomb to give him life.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]4. So we see in the illustration of the raising of Lazarus that Scripture does not teach “free will.” There are only apparent scripture texts that are suggested and even then, they must be read in light of the whole Bible. Did Lazarus make any contribution so that he can live again or had a choice to tell Jesus not to resurrect him? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]5.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] To confess Jesus, to believe in Jesus, to have faith in Jesus, to say the sinner’s prayer, to be baptized, and the like, are all works that man performs and they are in violation of [/SIZE]Ephesians 2:9[SIZE=12pt]. And note what God had to say in [/SIZE]Ezekiel 36:24-30[SIZE=12pt], God is the prime mover and not man.[/SIZE]



6. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. The term "testament" can be tranliterated as parable. Thus, the whole Bible becomes a parable because it consists of the Old and New Testaments.

In Christ, I have selected some of your quotes and numbered them to respond to them in order. There is a great deal in your statements that I disagree with strongly.

1. The "elect" are chosen by God's foreknowledge. They are not predetermined by God's arbitrary will, but are the elect who are predestined for glory based on God's foreknowledge of their response to His grace in Jesus. Although I know you will disagree with me here, the term "elect" does not necessitate arbitrary selection by God. There are other ways to view this that you are either unaware of or are failing to mention.

2. Most proponents of free will do not discount total depravity. Total depravity is not proof that free will does not exist. Grace elicits free will, it does not destroy it.

3. Actually this is no where close to the "best illustration in the Bible of free will." This looks like a straw man argument to me. In fact, I have never even heard of Lazarus' resurrection being referred to as proof for free will. Where did you get this? The resurrection of the dead in the ministry of Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not people have the freedom to respond to God's gift of life in Jesus.

4. No one I have ever read has claimed it did teach free will. Again, this is a false representation of free will proponents. Arminians believe in total depravity. They believe people are dead in their sins. However, they do not believe that God's Spirit and grace act in ways that are irresistible. Clearly the Spirit is resisted in Scripture and people act in ways contrary to the will of God which indicates free will. Of course, this is impossible for those who believe that all acts are sovereign decrees.

5. This is another terrible error in my opinion. The bible NEVER refers to repentance, faith, prayer for cleansing or baptism as a "work." Works in the NT are acts of law people do to establish their own righteousness in addition to or in contrast to the righteousness of Christ. Baptism, repentance, confessing Christ, etc. are God's select acts of faith he calls believers to when they want to embrace the righteousness of Christ. Show me one Biblical text where baptism, repentance, or praying for cleansing are viewed as works contrary to Christ's righteousness. They are means of embracing Christ's righteousness, not means of opposing his righteousness!

6. Where did you get this? Testament is not transliterated as parable. A testament is a will, covenant or agreement established between God and man or a disposition of goods as a result of death. A parable means to "cast alongside." Para -alongside (where we get parallel), and balo- I throw. Parables are stories that are cast alongside a teaching to bring further understanding. One is not a transliteration of the other.

 

[bling]

To all concerned

Two or three days ago I posted a response in the Christian Forum Community on another thread entitled "Can you prove this?"

I will copy and paste it here (with an edited version) because t believe it will shed some light on the subject at hand.

[SIZE=12pt]For us to understand the meaning of predestination and free will (which many have misunderstood), we have to go all the way back to the beginning to the Garden of Eden.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Adam as we know was created a perfect being (after creation, God said everything was good) and as long as Adam obeyed God he could live forever. Not only was Adam perfect but he was also given the “spirit” of Jesus which is an essential ingredient by which he could live forever. Then the test came and the rest is history. Why a perfect being would disobey God I have no idea but he did. Adam not only died physically but spiritually as well, that is, God also took back the “spirit” of Jesus from him. The condition of the rest of mankind is altogether different from that of Adam because, after the fall, each and every person that is to be born into this world was tainted with Adam’s sin and became subject to physical as well as spiritual death (I Corinthians 15:22).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You start off building on a false premise, so it is easy to see why you would draw the wrong conclusion: You said: “Adam as we know was created a perfect being”. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The Bible says: Adam was “very good” which may mean as good as can be made, but was Adam “perfect” like Christ is perfect? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You can take how the Bible uses the word “perfect” where in other places it means: complete, whole, one, together, mature, etc., but not “perfect” like Christ is perfect (God cannot just clone another Christ). Christ is not a created being, but man is. So are there some things God just cannot make from the outset? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Can man become “perfect”, in that man becomes like Christ and if so in what way? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“Free will” is either necessary or not needed dependent on the objectives:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Why did God make man in the first place?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What is man’s objective?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What is God’s objective as it relates to man?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]We can say: “to bring Glory to God”, but a rock brings glory to God by being a rock, so what does that mean?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Can a person not bring glory to God?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What brings God glory and what does not bring God glory? [/SIZE]

 

[Angelina]

Here also "In Christ", was my reply to your post from "Can You Prove This?....

Hi In Christ,
Welcome to CyB

"Free will" may not be a word found in the bible but neither is the word "Trinity" and many other words that we have coined. I personally believe that God has given us a free will along with God choosing some whom he calls "the elect." I believe that the elect are God's chosen people Israel and the free will believers are those whom God drew by grace through faith ie: Gentile believers. Romans 11:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Romans 11:17, 18, 19, 20, 21.

Please note Ephesians 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1. Who were the first to put their hope in Christ?
2. Who is the group he is referring to in verse13?

Back later...Shalom!

Added: I have included a little dispute that occurred when Peter rose up against those who believed that the Gentiles coming to salvation, needed to be circumcised...

Acts 15
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

 

[HiddenManna]

The word is "perishing" not "free will" please do not confuse perishing with free will nor apply your personal interpretation to this verse. The message of the cross is for all mankind. Some will believe and receive that message and some will not. I have led hundreds of people to the cross that brings salvation. That is why I have this sig...PS: I do not know what you are on about.... :huh:

I was not trying to change the scripture but make the point that "free will" must be put to death at the Cross. Read the post again and this point can be seen in the context. And again I agree with Calvin that no man chooses God, for no man can come to Him unless he is drawn by God, and surrenders his own will to the will of God.

Joh 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.